USB Cable for sound? What Price?

[ellisdj]

Some of the best interconnects ever made are not screened at all - so its not ALL about the screen.

In fact some companies say metal anywhere near the main conductors is counter productice to SQ.

So would be a magnet of some degree but hey! Shielding never normaly comes in contact with the copper or what ever it is inside Bad design if dose! so wouldn't interfer at all. Its a simple foil sheet under the main (outside) insultaling layer then the there's a another plastic tube or rubber round the wires inside so would never touch. And the connectors at either end should be decoupled (like a tv arial). So again no harm in putting it in really. Probable don't need it so much in this day and age but old habbits die hard.

If im wrong im wrong this thread is long enough

It doesnt have to come into contact to affect the SQ if its magnetic - but unless the shield is earthed it is not a shield it will be earthed back to the return on the cable unless its earthed elsewhere and there is only 1 company who does this to my knowledge Entreq and me actually but | am not a company just an enthusiast

In theory the shield is needed the most in this day and age because there is abundant rfi from lower freq to extreme high freq from wireless, radio, mobile phone etc.

This is an interesting video from Munich this year

Its highlighting a differents issues - problems with standard grounding and how the earth in a building is not an earth its an attenae. It explains the resons why even the best hifi products dont clean mains rfi, dont ground airbourne rfi

If you can wactch past all the self promotion of the first 5 minutes or so its extremely interesting and informative.

There are a few demos as well which you can clearly hear off my asus xonar soundcard into average Seinheiser headphones

 

[ellisdj]

There is an interesting series of ads by LIDL right now which I guess some of you have seen. In these they present the public with two products, their own brand and the market leader, one example is their lager and Stella. Guess what, everybody (well everybody they show!) prefers the market leader but the catch is that they have swapped the products.

Their story is of course that their products are better than the market leaders, which they may be. However, it's not a fair test because we can't tell how many people are being influenced by the labelling, that is the perception bias.

I wonder if they would be willing to redo the tests and rerun the ads without the labelling.

Chris

This is the magic of the hifi demo room - such as in the video above.

10 people all sitting there for example - can you hear a difference?

You can even hear disttinct differences on the recording of the real event on You Tube.

Excellent Video and Presentation one of my favourites so far.

 

[radiorog]

Yes, but I don't think these arguments prove anything. Maybe losing some of the information doesn't stop a piece of software working entirely, or the visual content going blank, but maybe the visual content will be compromised. Until somebody can explain in detail exactly how digital audio works, then everyone might as well be talking to themselves or to a plastic bag.

I am curious about the 1's and 0's. With a USB cable, this info is transported. What happens if some of these digits are lost? Does the music still play? I'm pretty sure it does,but it will be slightly compromised. Does the time interval between any combination of 1'scand zeros matter? Ie: the space around each digit. In other words, can even an identical piece of information be compressed depending on the space between digits?

Also, although I partially concur with the argument that digital technology is human made so we know everything about it, I also feel that this is wrong. Sure, somebody came up with the idea, but the potential for that was always there, so it was merely an invention to be discovered. Much like discovering of any equation to describe a physical reality , sure someone came up with an equation, but that doesn't mean, let's say, gravity didn't exist before the discovery. The same goes for digital. It has always been possible, it has just taken a set amount of time before the tools and wisdom has accumulated to enable the discovery. Therefore there can be things regarding this subject that we don't understand.

 

[ellisdj]

if digital is perfect - how comes sometimes its not.

The other day I opened a word file (double clicking the exact file) and it was a blank document.

Shut it down opened it up again by double clicking the same file and it was the full document it was supposed to be and was 100 times after I closed it and opened it again.

How can there be error when digital is perfect - and the pc is the perfect example of this as things happen unexplained such as that - I am not saying its related at all - its just an example.

I am waiitng on comments on that video - where cable dielectic / directionality is proved in a simple demo

 

[Superaintit]

if digital is perfect - how comes sometimes its not.

The other day I opened a word file (double clicking the exact file) and it was a blank document.

Shut it down opened it up again by double clicking the same file and it was the full document it was supposed to be and was 100 times after I closed it and opened it again.

How can there be error when digital is perfect - and the pc is the perfect example of this as things happen unexplained such as that - I am not saying its related at all - its just an example.

?

I am waiitng on comments on that video - where cable dielectic / directionality is proved in a simple demo

What you experienced with the word file can have a number of reasons, depending on your environment. All can be logically explained.

Basically a computer is a complex peace of hard- and software made by man. People make mistakes, which we call bugs. Some are very evident and are solved promptly by a microsoft update. Others are considered to be less important (or even unknown) by Microsoft and are left as they are.
An example of this is a bug in excel when you copy large peaces regularly, the clipboard exceeds the maximum memory of your pc which causes excel to crash.

However the problems concerning data transfer are far less complex. It's called connectivity, which means it either works or not. I don't know much about audio cables but I do know a bit about IT.

 

[ellisdj]

there is no bugs opening word files I open hundreds daily and eveytime they open correctly

However that one time the other day it opened as a blank page not the correct document.

Man has programmed the file to open in Word exactly as was saved and it does so 10000 times out of 100001. Why did it not work that 1 time?

My point is I think Digital is not the perfect thing people think it is

 

[Superaintit]

It's interesting to see how people use facts to support their fixed opinion. I guess it's part of the human condition too.

 

[OliG]

I don't really understand the "it either works or it doesn't" logic. Let's say you are transporting CD quality audio from a PC into an external DAC using a USB cable. My understanding is that the DAC will be accepting the digital data in chunks of 16 bits each and will reconstitute the analogue signal from this.

For each of these 16 bit chunks, how can you be sure that the same pattern of 1s and 0s that are sent from the PC arrives at the DAC? What would happen if the DAC interpretted one of the 0s as a 1? Would it not just reconstiute the analogue differently from what it is supposed to look like? Hence, the file would still play, it just wouldn't sound as it was supposed to.

Of course, just 1 bit being incorrect would only impact a tiny portion of a second, but if the problem occurred frequently for many of the 16 bit chunks, it could have an impact overall.

 

[steve_1979]

... Their story is of course that their products are better than the market leaders, which they may be. However, it's not a fair test because we can't tell how many people are being influenced by the labelling, that is the perception bias...

That's exactly what I said to my girlfriend last night!

Great minds Covenanter. Great minds...

 

[ellisdj]

its not 1's and 0's though its voltages - thats just how its described.

Still no comments on the video re cable directionality - going to start a new thread

 

[Covenanter]

Some of the best interconnects ever made are not screened at all - so its not ALL about the screen.

In fact some companies say metal anywhere near the main conductors is counter productice to SQ.

So would be a magnet of some degree but hey! Shielding never normaly comes in contact with the copper or what ever it is inside Bad design if dose! so wouldn't interfer at all. Its a simple foil sheet under the main (outside) insultaling layer then the there's a another plastic tube or rubber round the wires inside so would never touch. And the connectors at either end should be decoupled (like a tv arial). So again no harm in putting it in really. Probable don't need it so much in this day and age but old habbits die hard.

If im wrong im wrong this thread is long enough

It doesnt have to come into contact to affect the SQ if its magnetic - but unless the shield is earthed it is not a shield it will be earthed back to the return on the cable unless its earthed elsewhere and there is only 1 company who does this to my knowledge Entreq and me actually but | am not a company just an enthusiast

In theory the shield is needed the most in this day and age because there is abundant rfi from lower freq to extreme high freq from wireless, radio, mobile phone etc.

This is an interesting video from Munich this year

Its highlighting a differents issues - problems with standard grounding and how the earth in a building is not an earth its an attenae. It explains the resons why even the best hifi products dont clean mains rfi, dont ground airbourne rfi

If you can wactch past all the self promotion of the first 5 minutes or so its extremely interesting and informative.

There are a few demos as well which you can clearly hear off my asus xonar soundcard into average Seinheiser headphones

I admire your persistence! Please don't take offence but I don't think you have the "language" to understand what is being said to you. That isn't a criticism (except of our educational system).

Chris

 

[abacus]

I don't really understand the "it either works or it doesn't" logic. Let's say you are transporting CD quality audio from a PC into an external DAC using a USB cable. My understanding is that the DAC will be accepting the digital data in chunks of 16 bits each and will reconstitute the analogue signal from this.

For each of these 16 bit chunks, how can you be sure that the same pattern of 1s and 0s that are sent from the PC arrives at the DAC? What would happen if the DAC interpretted one of the 0s as a 1? Would it not just reconstiute the analogue differently from what it is supposed to look like? Hence, the file would still play, it just wouldn't sound as it was supposed to.

Of course, just 1 bit being incorrect would only impact a tiny portion of a second, but if the problem occurred frequently for many of the 16 bit chunks, it could have an impact overall.

Perhaps this will clear up the confusion http://www.geoffknagge.com/uni/elec101/essay.shtml#Ch3

Bill

 

[hammill]

It's interesting to see how people use facts to support their fixed opinion. I guess it's part of the human condition too.

Surely that is a good thing? Without facts opinions are worthless.

 

[Superaintit]

It's interesting to see how people use facts to support their fixed opinion. I guess it's part of the human condition too.

Surely that is a good thing? Without facts opinions are worthless. 

I looks to me certain facts are ignored, others selected to support an opinion that seems fixed. Happens all the time. It takes a brave man to keep an open mind.

 

[cheeseboy]

Until somebody can explain in detail exactly how digital audio works, then everyone might as well be talking to themselves or to a plastic bag.

people have, many times. How do you think the music industry changed from analogue to digital?

I am curious about the 1's and 0's. With a USB cable, this info is transported. What happens if some of these digits are lost? Does the music still play? I'm pretty sure it does,but it will be slightly compromised.

no it wouldn't, you'd get dropout. Have you ever watched digital tv and then it goes all blocky and stops, then starts again. That's what happens when digital signals get lost. There's no room for loss of data, if it's not there, it can't use it. There are certain systems, such as tcp/ip which we use to transmit data across networks that have built in error correction and can re-request the data, or in certain circumstances parity, so the data can be rebuilt.

Does the time interval between any combination of 1'scand zeros matter?

timing does matter in the digital world, esepcially for non buffered, non error corrected data streams. Hence the reason studios will use an external digital clock in order to make sure all of the equipment is running to the same beat as it were.

Also, although I partially concur with the argument that digital technology is human made so we know everything about it, I also feel that this is wrong. Sure, somebody came up with the idea, but the potential for that was always there, so it was merely an invention to be discovered. Much like discovering of any equation to describe a physical reality , sure someone came up with an equation, but that doesn't mean, let's say, gravity didn't exist before the discovery. The same goes for digital. It has always been possible, it has just taken a set amount of time before the tools and wisdom has accumulated to enable the discovery. Therefore there can be things regarding this subject that we don't understand.

You can't compare the two. Physics and a man made construct of say a computer. I can see what you are trying to get at, but in this case no, not really. Gravity is there, microchips were not. It's not like microchips were sitting around waiting for somebody to discover them.

 

[andyjm]

For many years, I commuted along Southwark Street. I was always fascinated by a building that had 'Facts Not Opinions' over the doorway, carved in stone. Having done some research, it turns out that the building was home to the Kirkaldy testing works, now the Kirkaldy museum. David Kirkaldy founded the discipline of materials testing, and famously established the cause of the Tay bridge disaster in the late 1800s. Engineers of the time were putting up large structures with scant understanding of the strength of the materials they used - and sometimes got it wrong. The Victorian ' figure out how strong it needs to be, then make it three times thicker' approach worked well as long as you didn't get the original estimate more that three times too low. David's approach was 'facts not opinions' - he would ignore the opinion of the designer and test to see how strong the structure really was.

An interesting parallel to this thread, which is long on opinions, and short on facts. Everyone has an opinion, but without the facts it is all just hot air.

Going back to the OP's point, useful facts for a USB cable would be -

1. Is the cable being used to supply power to the downstream device.

2. Is the cable being used to supply timing information to the downstream device to allow clock extraction.

3. Does the data protocol used on the cable have error detection / error correction

4. Is the downstream device sensitive to EMI radiated by the cable

5. Is the downstream device sensitive to EMI conducted along the cable

Given answers to the above questions, it would be possible to predict whether a particular USB cable was likely to have any effect on the performance of the downstream device. The litmus test, would of course be to test it.

A reasonable expection would be that a downstream device that is well designed and not subject to EMI concerns, doesn't rely on USB for power, and is aysnchronous would be insensitive to cable construction. Equally, a downstream device that is USB powered, is synchronous and sensitive to EMI may well react differently to different cables.

 

[cheeseboy]

It's interesting to see how people use facts to support their fixed opinion. I guess it's part of the human condition too.

Surely that is a good thing? Without facts opinions are worthless.

actually, I'd debate that statement - why? Some things can only be opinions, such as what food do you like, what music do you like. Whereas the confusion that can happen on here, is that people present those opinions as facts. IE, I can hear a difference, so there must be one. This is where I would agree with you in that unless you have done some proper testing, or there is evidence to back up what you say, then it is just an opinion, and could indeed be incorrect.

 

[Frank Harvey]

actually, I'd debate that statement - why? Some things can only be opinions, such as what food do you like, what music do you like.

I like cheese. Fact.

 

[matt49]

Facts are simple and facts are straight
Facts are lazy and facts are late
Facts all come with points of view
Facts don't do what I want them to
Facts just twist the truth around
Facts are living turned inside out
Facts are getting the best of them
Facts are nothing on the face of things
Facts don't stain the furniture
Facts go out and slam the door
Facts are written all over your face
Facts continue to change their shape
I'm still waiting... I'm still waiting... I'm still waiting...

etc

 

[cheeseboy]

actually, I'd debate that statement - why? Some things can only be opinions, such as what food do you like, what music do you like.

I like cheese. Fact.

all cheese?

 

[Frank Harvey]

all cheese?

Are you going to say that someone who states he like cars isn't stating a fact just because he hates Nissan Jukes?

 

[cheeseboy]

all cheese?

Are you going to say that someone who states he like cars isn't stating a fact just because he hates Nissan Jukes?

Depends if I was feeling pedantic or not.... At the moment, it's too hot to think about such things, the only thing I can clearly think of is a cool, cold, frosty glass of beer

 

[cheeseboy]

Depends if I was feeling pedantic or not.... At the moment, it's too hot to think about such things, the only thing I can clearly think of is a cool, cold, frosty glass of beer

I hear that. My day off and I'm tempted to take a sweaty stroll up the road to grab some ciders

(I like cider - fact )

me too, although I prefer perry... (not pear cider, real honest to god perry )

 

[BigH]

Depends if I was feeling pedantic or not.... At the moment, it's too hot to think about such things, the only thing I can clearly think of is a cool, cold, frosty glass of beer

I hear that. My day off and I'm tempted to take a sweaty stroll up the road to grab some ciders

(I like cider - fact )

What proper cider or that processed fizzy stuff?

 

[Frank Harvey]

Depends if I was feeling pedantic or not.... At the moment, it's too hot to think about such things, the only thing I can clearly think of is a cool, cold, frosty glass of beer

I hear that. My day off and I'm tempted to take a sweaty stroll up the road to grab some ciders

(I like cider - fact )