USB Cable for sound? What Price?

[Covenanter]

According to yourself, there is only one person to believe anyway.

Absolutely, but that person is not me, it's everyone involved with the development of digital audio and digital audio transmission, codecs and protocols for about 50 years. All I'm doing it re-stating the blindingly obvious.

all I did was recommend he try some out. It costs nothing to try something for yourself.

No of course it doesn't, on that we agree. But if someone came along and said their CD player sounds better when they bounce the infra-red light from the remote-sender off a mirror, and so please can you give some advice regarding a good mirror upto around £300 that will return the best increase in sound quality for the money, would you explain to them that the differences they think they're hearing are just not possible because it just cannot be the case, or would you recommend some nice £300 mirrors? Because I know the claims about digital audio transmission are just as ludicrous as the above ridiculous scenario, because I understand at least the basics of how digital audio works, that's why I do my best to step in and try to save them some money.

Of course he would sell them the mirror! That's what he does, sells mirrors along with some smoke.

Chris

 

[chebby]

That's what forums are for.

You mean they aren't for hi-fi salesmen to get free advertising and spam their employer's product range on every possible occasion?

 

[CnoEvil]

Here is one viewpoint: http://www.madronadigital.com/Library/DigitalAudioJitter.html

BTW. I am not qualified to say how true (or not), this is.

 

[andyjm]

Here is one viewpoint: http://www.madronadigital.com/Library/DigitalAudioJitter.html

BTW. I am not qualified to say how true (or not), this is.

I am qualified, and the first part of his analysis is OK. He starts to leave the rails about 2/3 of the way through when he says that digital audio can't be reclocked - which is of course nonsnense. It is what most modern high end DACs do.

 

[Frank Harvey]

You mean they aren't for hi-fi salesmen to get free advertising and spam their employer's product range on every possible occasion?

Typical expected response from yourself (and the other one who dislikes me).

Every occasion? Yeah, cos you can't make a turn without seeing my name everywhere can you?!! Hardly spamming. And if I wasn't doing this as a retailer, I'd be saying exactly the same things as a regular member. My profile here, and who I work for has nothing to do with what I recommend. And don't forget, I HAVE to make it known who I work for.

If you have any grievance with WHF's forum rules, take it up with them rather than attacking individuals.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Of course he would sell them the mirror! That's what he does, sells mirrors along with some smoke.

Chris

Nice summing up of my personality from someone who seemingly knows me very well...*ok*

 

[spiny norman]

No, it's an absolutely relevant analogy, but your refusal to understand why doesn't make it less so.

To say it is an absolutely relevant (you do like your absolutes, don't you?) is like saying someone who can hit just one pinpoint accurate serve will inevitably win a five-set tennis match.

Sending a document to a printer (see also the old argument about different USB cables not changing the words in a dcument when transmitted) is a one-hit deal; sending audio in digital form is a real-time procedure over an extended time. To ignore that just because your printer works is pretty bizarre.

And that's before we even get into the effect of electrical noise getting through from source to receiving device to affect the sound of that device, or any possible effect interference on the USB cable's 12V power line might have (which is one reason some cables designed for audio don't carry the power line).

I'm with David and others in the 'try it and see whether it makes a difference' camp, not on your 'don't try it because it can't make a difference, and if you're stupid enough still to try it and think it does, you are self-deluding' tack.

I'm not standing up for the makers of exotic USB cables, just as I think ludicrous the suggestions I read that different Blu-ray players can affect motion handling or depth of field or whatever - all I'm saying is why not just let people try it for themselves rather than indulging in all this sanctimonious appendage-waving whenever the subject comes up?

Oh, and if you're going to say you're just here to save people from their own idiocy and the pernicious pressure they're under from retailers, advertisers and the evil press, don't bother: some of the greatest discoveries in history have come about by mistake, or by people being brave and inquisitive enough to say 'Yes, I know that's the received wisdom, but what if...?'

 

[andyjm]

For the same reason that the 'all cables sound different' brigade are generally wrong, I am afraid that the 'all cables are the same' brigade are equally wrong - which is not understanding the engineering behind the arguments.

If all a USB cable did was carry asynchronous digital data, then you could make a reasonable argument that any downstream audio output would be independent of cable construction (assuming the cable worked of course). If however the device was USB powered then the the ability of the USB cable to supply clean, stable power would also come into play. Parameters like resistance, crosstalk and conductivity would be important. Equally if the downstream device depended on the USB stream for timing and clock extraction, then inter-conductor capacitance, conductor inductance and resulting pulse shape would all matter.

Before blanket statements about cables are made, it important to understand the application they are being used for. 'Bits is bits' is true, but your USB cable might also be carrying the power supply and a timing reference, and in this case construction quality can matter.

For what its worth, I think it unlikely that the effects I mention above will make enough difference in synchrounous USB or USB powered DACs to be audible - the point is that from a tehoretical perspective the cable could make a difference so it would be wrong to suggest that it couldn't.

 

[andyjm]

Apologies for the poor spelling above. The edit button has gone. Anyone know where it went?

 

[chebby]

Apologies for the poor spelling above. The edit button has gone. Anyone know where it went?

Haymarket are saving money by cutting down on unecessary buttons.

 

[record_spot]

Spreading silly voodoo that says otherwise just confuses people like the OP and leaves him uncertain of who to believe.

The joy of forums.?

According to yourself, there is only one person to believe anyway. And if you'd have read my posts a little more carefully (or just understood it better), all I did was recommend he try some out. It costs nothing to try something for yourself.

Well, it does in as much as the cost of the cable and that might be quite an expensive cable per my earlier post...!

 

[Frank Harvey]

Well, it does in as much as the cost of the cable and that might be quite an expensive cable per my earlier post...!

Not if borrowed from your friendly dealer. If you don't have a friendly dealer, that's either through bad luck geographically, or choice.

 

[bigboss]

Just to support David; he never tried to hard-sell any equipment when I was in the market for my new AV gear. In fact, he recommended me a subwoofer which he didn't even sell!

Accusing David at every single opportunity is just childish IMO.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Thank you BB - in fact, if there's anyone on this forum who has ever felt I have forced anything at all on them, do feel free to speak up without retribution

 

[MajorFubar]

The only thing confusing newcomers are the continuous tennis match replies - say your piece, then get out of the way and let others have their say. That's what forums are for.

No. I cannot agree with that. When people come on here and ask for advice it should be about giving them genuine facts to help them, where such facts exist. The whole problem with internet forums is that if Jo Bloggs joins up and asks "what's the moon made out of", I reply "it's made from rock that was likely blasted from the earth's surface five billion years ago", but then you come along and say "don't be ridiculous it's made from green cheese", both our responses by the nature of the system are given equal merit and visibility. Now by your reckoning, I should just stfu and go away without countermanding the fact that clearly your answer that the moon is made of green cheese is bullsh-t and hasn't helped the OP at all to get a factual answer.

There has got to be a way of letting OP's know what the facts are where facts exist, otherwise there's no point them coming on here to ask the question in the first place. And the fact is with digital cables, there is not and cannot be the kind of differences believers think they hear. It cannot happen because the cables don't carry audio. And it doesn't matter if you can or cannot understand why that is. Sorry.

 

[MajorFubar]

Accusing David at every single opportunity is just childish IMO.

+1, I fully agree with that, I'd just like to make it VERY clear that I'm NOT coming from that angle at all. I see him as a very valuable member of the forum.

 

[MajorFubar]

I.....why not just let people try it for themselves rather than indulging in all this sanctimonious appendage-waving whenever the subject comes up?

I'll tell you why. Did you ever read the thread I created years ago when I said after ripping over 300 CDs from an external USB ROM drive I tried the drive in my Mac on just one CD I'd already ripped and I was convinced it sounded better?

That's why.

 

[MajorFubar]

...wrote a lot of stuff...

I don't disagree fundamentally with what you say, but I am confident that when they designed USB connectors, cables and everything that goes with it, including the software which sends and receives the packets of data at either end, they fully thought all that through and built it into their tolerences, otherwise there would be detrimental effects on other devices that connect by USB.

Of all the millions of devices that you can plug into a computer via a USB cable, no-one ever questions that actual cable itself makes ******-all difference so long as it's at least well made and compliant with the appropriate quality directives, until the touchy subject of digital audio is raised on HiFi forums. Then all of a sudden there's apparently wiggle-room.

 

[spiny norman]

I'll tell you why. Did you ever read the thread I created years ago when I said after ripping over 300 CDs from an external USB ROM drive I tried the drive in my Mac on just one CD I'd already ripped and I was convinced it sounded better?

That's why.

No, I didn't. But no doubt you whipped yourself with a perfectly functional but inexpensive USB cable until you bled, and convinced yourself never to be so fallible again.

 

[MajorFubar]

I'll tell you why. Did you ever read the thread I created years ago when I said after ripping over 300 CDs from an external USB ROM drive I tried the drive in my Mac on just one CD I'd already ripped and I was convinced it sounded better?

That's why.

No, I didn't. But no doubt you whipped yourself with a perfectly functional but inexpensive USB cable until you bled, and convinced yourself never to be so fallible again.

lol!! *biggrin* No, but thanks for making me laugh. What I actually did was, I proved to myself that I was being mislead by expectation bias. I imported the two files into a DAW, aligned them to sample-accuracy, inverted the phase of one of them and sat through three and a half minutes of utter silence as the two identical files nulled each other to zero.

 

[lpv]

Well, it does in as much as the cost of the cable and that might be quite an expensive cable per my earlier post...!

Not if borrowed from your friendly dealer. If you don't have a friendly dealer, that's either through bad luck geographically, or choice.

mmm... a friendly dealer... can u describe what you do that makes you think you are a friendly dealer?

 

[bigboss]

Well, it does in as much as the cost of the cable and that might be quite an expensive cable per my earlier post...!

Not if borrowed from your friendly dealer. If you don't have a friendly dealer, that's either through bad luck geographically, or choice.

mmm... a friendly dealer... can u describe what you do that makes you think you are a friendly dealer?

My 100+ email exchanges with him and numerous phone calls to select the best equipment without any hard-sell?

 

[lpv]

no hard sell?

any soft sell?

 

[bigboss]

Nope.

1) He advised me to go for a subwoofer he doesn't even sell.

2) His advice was to stick with 9 speakers when I was keen on 11 (I went for 11 eventually).

 

[lpv]

+ 1 for this dealer then.

however I would still like to know what dealer has to say.