USB audio can never sound as good as CD

Vladimir

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That is the conclusion this chap came to after experimenting with USB cables.

I personally subjectively believe and prefer the sound of CD audio over anything computer based. I don't care if its HD or ultra HD or whatever, a good CD on a proper spinner sounds best to me for whatever reason.

Last night I went through my USB cable collection and checked the markings, especially which are 24/28 and which 28/28 AWG. These stuff matter apparently. People with active speakers and USB audio think they have the best solution. But after watching these videos I'm not so convinced as before... *nea*
 
Vladimir said:
That is the conclusion this chap came to after experimenting with USB cables.

I personally subjectively believe and prefer the sound of CD audio over anything computer based. I don't care if its HD or ultra HD or whatever, a good CD on a proper spinner sounds best to me for whatever reason.

Last night I went through my USB cable collection and checked the markings, especially which are 24/28 and which 28/28 AWG. These stuff matter apparently. People with active speakers and USB audio think they have the best solution. But after watching these videos I'm not so convinced as before... *nea*

Contentious, mois??

Perhaps the best way is to do away with cables and stick a memory stick into a USB socket. ;-)

In my experience that, and indeed files from a soli-state hard drive into my Universal Disc Player sound better than the CD iteself although this is not so evident if a SACD is played.
 

kukulec

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Finally, we have again a "cable makes difference" thread. *smile* I can easily imagine that on the system of "tuturtle" there is a significant difference between CD and computer, but it really depends on the DAC and amplifier. Last week I checked the remastered Brothers in arms CD against the wav on my PC, and the results were really close.

The USB cable is a different story (however we all know it only sends 0 and 1 so all the cables are the same *biggrin* ); they have different sound characteristics, and you can really fine tune your system. A Vertere USB will give you all the resolution provided from the source, while with a printer cable you will get inferior sound in every possible way.

An active speaker may sound better or not, but where is the joy that you change constantly your items? *smile*
 

andyjm

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kukulec said:
The USB cable is a different story (however we all know it only sends 0 and 1 so all the cables are the same *biggrin* ); they have different sound characteristics, and you can really fine tune your system. A Vertere USB will give you all the resolution provided from the source, while with a printer cable you will get inferior sound in every possible way.

The devil in HiFi is in the detail. Depending on the application, a USB cable doesn't just carry 0s and 1s.

If the DAC is self powered and running an async USB protocol then the USB cable won't make a difference.

If the DAC is USB powered, then the cable shielding and thickness MAY matter

I the protocol is not async, then the cable MAY introduce jitter into the clock recovered by the DAC.
 

Vladimir

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Al ears said:
Vladimir said:
That is the conclusion this chap came to after experimenting with USB cables.

I personally subjectively believe and prefer the sound of CD audio over anything computer based. I don't care if its HD or ultra HD or whatever, a good CD on a proper spinner sounds best to me for whatever reason.

Last night I went through my USB cable collection and checked the markings, especially which are 24/28 and which 28/28 AWG. These stuff matter apparently. People with active speakers and USB audio think they have the best solution. But after watching these videos I'm not so convinced as before... *nea*

Contentious, mois??

Perhaps the best way is to do away with cables and stick a memory stick into a USB socket. ;-)

In my experience that, and indeed files from a soli-state hard drive into my Universal Disc Player sound better than the CD iteself although this is not so evident if a SACD is played.

CD played through a good CDP sounds better, crisper, clearer to me more than vinyl or anything computer based. Even though in theory the same disc should sound the same through CDP and DVD-ROM (some give the rom advantage), I still prefer CDPs. But due to convenience and budget I stick to computer and streaming audio.

If only I had USB noise filters and purifiers...
work.gif
 

Vladimir

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kukulec said:
Finally, we have again a "cable makes difference" thread. *smile* I can easily imagine that on the system of "tuturtle" there is a significant difference between CD and computer, but it really depends on the DAC and amplifier. Last week I checked the remastered Brothers in arms CD against the wav on my PC, and the results were really close.

The USB cable is a different story (however we all know it only sends 0 and 1 so all the cables are the same *biggrin* ); they have different sound characteristics, and you can really fine tune your system. A Vertere USB will give you all the resolution provided from the source, while with a printer cable you will get inferior sound in every possible way.

An active speaker may sound better or not, but where is the joy that you change constantly your items? *smile*

I don't think this vinyl guy liked turtle's eagernes of sticking USB audiophile products like shish kebabs. Gave him a pissy video response.
 

Vladimir

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andyjm said:
kukulec said:
The USB cable is a different story (however we all know it only sends 0 and 1 so all the cables are the same *biggrin* ); they have different sound characteristics, and you can really fine tune your system. A Vertere USB will give you all the resolution provided from the source, while with a printer cable you will get inferior sound in every possible way.

The devil in HiFi is in the detail. Depending on the application, a USB cable doesn't just carry 0s and 1s.

If the DAC is self powered and running an async USB protocol then the USB cable won't make a difference.

If the DAC is USB powered, then the cable shielding and thickness MAY matter

I the protocol is not async, then the cable MAY introduce jitter into the clock recovered by the DAC.

His Denon DAC is async and powered via wall wart unit. He seems ademant USB cables as transport are to blame.

I use a powered hub between the PC and audio interface (USB powered). I'm hoping this helps considering the interface is feeding balanced XLRs to active monitors. The Lexicon Alpha is isochronus, but I don't detect any jitter. My main concern was clipping and dropouts.
 

muljao

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My modestly priced system might make my opinion redundant in this conversation. If one thinks that CDs sound better than solid state or usb that's fair enough.

I think that the flacs I've ripped from CDs and play though a usb/media server sound every bit as good as when i play direct from cd. I didn't watch the video because I an not looking for reasons for my system to sound worse than it could.

Some DACs do have reputation for sounding different through their different inputs, usb sometimes not sounding as good as optical etc, but is that not more of the result of the conversion process inside the DAC
 

Blacksabbath25

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I think cds are hard to beat when you have the right links in setup that are a good sonic match

buying a cdplayer that has a top transport a good dac built inside it's hard to beat because when I use my streamer to playback the same album it's not has lively. The cd version seems more open and a bit more detail but the streamer is close and that's using a coaxial cable.
 

Andrewjvt

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Cut out the cable all together and also the extra power the usb uses on the streamer (that is supposed to degrade the sq)

I cant hear any difference using same dac from either cd player or win10 laptop usb and jriver.
 

DocG

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Vladimir said:
DocG said:
Vladimir said:
DocG said:
USB is so legacy... Modern DACs use ethernet!

Sure, let the music mix with rubbish RF noise from cell towers, tv and radio. At least in wire it was isolated.

CAT5e is wire too...

Ah, yes.

Does it have its quirks like USB?

Drawbacks? Dunno. It has higher bandwidth and is faster than USB 2.0. And it carries no current (well it can, but it shouldn't in this application).

Andyjm, you there?
 

Gazzip

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Vladimir said:
DocG said:
Vladimir said:
DocG said:
USB is so legacy... Modern DACs use ethernet!

Sure, let the music mix with rubbish RF noise from cell towers, tv and radio. At least in wire it was isolated.

CAT5e is wire too...

Ah, yes.

Does it have its quirks like USB?

I think Ethernet might have to have built in galvanic isolation to meet the CAT5 standard...
 
Gazzip said:
Vladimir said:
DocG said:
Vladimir said:
DocG said:
USB is so legacy... Modern DACs use ethernet!

Believe it might but again only a real benefit if you are streaming otherwise I prefer to keep my cables as short as possible or better still not use any. That's just me though as i don't yet stream music.

Sure, let the music mix with rubbish RF noise from cell towers, tv and radio. At least in wire it was isolated.

CAT5e is wire too...

Ah, yes.

Does it have its quirks like USB?

I think Ethernet might have to have built in galvanic isolation to meet the CAT5 standard...

Maybe it does but only of benefit if streaming I feel. I don't yet so prefer to keep cables as short as possible or preferably none at all.
 

Brokenflame

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As a computer hardware developer I can categorically say, that the statement "USB audio can never sound as good as CD" is incorrect.

CD Audio source is 2 Channel signed 16-bit Linear PCM. This means that the hardware in your CD player does not even need to cope with data rates exceeding 150KBps (1xCD speed).

The main points to understand are:

1. Hardware limitation.

2. Audio encoding limitations.

Hardware Limitation - CD player use motors, and often power supplies mounted near their preamp stage, which while I cannot detect definitely effects the audio signal due to magnetic fields of both the power supply and the motor used to spin the CD.

The DAC (digital to audio convertor) as well as the clock will have an impact on the quality of the sound any digital device has. Both computers, and CD-Players have these. The clock keeps the timing of the music accurate while the DAC uses various algorithms to covert the digital source back into an analogue signal for the amplifier/speakers.

Clocks are generally very accurate these days, loosing or gaining a single second over a month or more. So audibly you will probably not notice the clock even if it is slightly off.

However the DAC is something you will notice. Each DAC chip will boost the analogue output differently, they also use different algorithms to convert the digital signal back to an analogue signal. Some of these DAC can also up sample the digital signal, and have present equalizers. Typically the manufacture will not tell you the algorithm used or if they up sample the signal or not.

Encoding Limitation - Due to the fact the encoding used on CD Audio disks is relatively low quality by today’s standards. Your CD is inferior to the medium it was mastered on, usually Hi-Resolution Audio files on a computer. Which are easily transferred between computers and DAC over USB, PCI, or any other interconnect. Also due to the limitations of the encoding used for CD Audio disks, it also means that computers can accurately (100% accurately) copy the file and play it back on a DAC of your choosing.

Codecs, sample and bit rates combine to give a natural or unnatural sound in the digital world. Listening to the same song sampled at 24bits@96Khz and then at 16bits@44.1Khz, and most people can tell the difference. There is then the codec itself, some codecs partially overlap the left and right channels to save on storage space, namely MP3. This leads to less stereo separation on high-end speakers, but is not usually detectable on budget and midrange speakers. If you opt for lossless compression and dedicated right and left channel streams you will have better stereo imaging.

USB Controlers - USB controllers can communicate with devices using different modes, bulk, async, sync, adaptive and so one. If you are not using a HUB between the controller and the device the mode is mostly irrelevant as there should be enough bandwidth to stream Multi Channel HD Audio even on USB v1.1. USB v1 had a maximum transfer rate of 12MBp/s, which far exceeds the requirements of anything recorded on a CD. Thus only USB controller with too many devices attached would degrade the sound supplied by 16bit @ 44.1Khz sampling.

USB Cables - A damaged USB cable or failing that, a USB cable which is too long would also degrade the signal enough to cause issues with sound. However as long as the cable quality is matched to the controller you should be okay. Thus an USBv2 controller should use an USBv2 cable. The only other factor that would cause the signal to degrade on the USB cable is strong external magnetic influence.

Conclusion

For 90% of the population who do not have lots of wires/magnetic influences next to their USB cables, the introduction of USB into an audio signal path is irrelevant. What is relevant is the clock in the source, and the DAC used.

I for instance use a M-DAC+ as my DAC with various sources including a CD player over Digital Coax, Mac over USB, and AirPlay over Optical as I prefer this DAC.

And while I prefer to purchase Audio CD’s rather than use High Resolution Streaming Services, this is simply because I choose to own my music and not rent it. It’s the same reason I own my car, and my house. I could rent a nicer car and a bigger house but when I retire and can’t afford the rent payments anymore where will that leave me, Homeless, without a car and with no music that’s where!
 

Brokenflame

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Cat5e uses 4 pairs of twisted pair wires (8 wires) this is done to cancel out induced magnetic interference.

Using Cat5 does not ensure that error-correcting algorithms are used. You would need to check which protocol is used. IP is often used without TCP when streaming audio. Please note that error correction can be used on USB as well, however it is often switched off unless the sound source is buffered.

Error correction cannot be used on Tosh link or other one-way communication channels. As such longer stretches of cables used for Tosh link will be more expensive as the quality of the cable will need to be improved to cope with the additional distance.

Shield Cat 5e is superior to Cat5e UTP but more care is required to avoid shorts and to ensure that the shielding is applied correctly.

Hope this helps :)

--- Technology is more than skin deep. Superiour hardware is nothing without superiour software to back it up.
 

ellisdj

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That's the whole purpose of the video

He says his pc should sound better than his 1990's cd player but it doesnt its not even close.

Doesn't surpise me one bit but we all know that.

All else aside windows is terrible for sound quality just for starters

Not me in the video cno buddy just another person who knows i have been right all along
 

audiventory

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Vladimir said:
That is the conclusion this chap came to after experimenting with USB cables.

I personally subjectively believe and prefer the sound of CD audio over anything computer based. I don't care if its HD or ultra HD or whatever, a good CD on a proper spinner sounds best to me for whatever reason.

Last night I went through my USB cable collection and checked the markings, especially which are 24/28 and which 28/28 AWG. These stuff matter apparently. People with active speakers and USB audio think they have the best solution. But after watching these videos I'm not so convinced as before... *nea*

I expected of demonstration of binary difference :)

And double blind test is not home entertainment due big number of measurements, used equipment and development of methodic.
 

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