USB audio can never sound as good as CD

[avole]

That I can discern. If anything, my CD player, a Copland, sounds marginally inferior to my appleTV/cheapo dac combination. The iPhone6 over airplay also doesn't sound to bad.

 

[andyjm]

As a computer hardware developer I can categorically say, that the statement "USB audio can never sound as good as CD" is incorrect.

CD Audio source is 2 Channel signed 16-bit Linear PCM. This means that the hardware in your CD player does not even need to cope with data rates exceeding 150KBps (1xCD speed).

I hope your hardware design is better than your maths.

16bits x 44.1Khz x 2 = 1.411Mbs (approx 1.5Mbs)

That would be 1,500Kbs not 150Kbs.

Those wretched decimal places are nothing but trouble.

 

[andyjm]

Error correction cannot be used on Tosh link or other one-way communication channels. As such longer stretches of cables used for Tosh link will be more expensive as the quality of the cable will need to be improved to cope with the additional distance.

Toslink uses the S/PDIF protocol which does not support error detection or correction.

It is however quite possible to have error detection and correction on a 'one way channel' by introducing additional information to the datastream.

A CD is a 'one way channel', data flows from the CD, but if corrupted on the CD there is no way to request another copy. There is however sufficient redundant data in the CD bitstream to allow errors to be detected and to be corrected. Google Reed/Solomon and Hamming codes.

 

[andyjm]

USB is so legacy... Modern DACs use ethernet!

Sure, let the music mix with rubbish RF noise from cell towers, tv and radio. At least in wire it was isolated.

CAT5e is wire too...

Ah, yes.

Does it have its quirks like USB?

Drawbacks? Dunno. It has higher bandwidth and is faster than USB 2.0. And it carries no current (well it can, but it shouldn't in this application).

Andyjm, you there?

Unlike USB which is designed for relatively short point to point connection, Ethernet was designed with networking in mind - 100M cable length as standard, and as pointed out above, galvanically isolated.

Ethernet is a differential protocol, and uses isolating tansformers at the transmitting and receiving end. This avoids any problems with differing ground potentials bewteen the two ends of the cable.

With USB only specified for a 5M run, there is every chance the equipment is in the same room, and probably plugged into the same power circuit.

 

[audiventory]

Toslink uses the S/PDIF protocol which does not support error detection or correction.

Such errors (pauses and clicks) is too audible. Local damaging lower bit only in each sent word almost improbable.

 

[Vladimir]

Cat7 has been designed as a standard for Gigabit Ethernet over 100m of copper cabling.

 

[Vladimir]

Someone already ventures my business idea, damn it.

Cat7 audiophile ethernet cable by Purist Audio.

 

[andyjm]

Someone already ventures my business idea, damn it.

Cat7 audiophile ethernet cable by Purist Audio.

..and it needs a 100 hour break in.

 

[Al ears]

Someone already ventures my business idea, damn it.

Cat7 audiophile ethernet cable by Purist Audio.

..and it needs a 100 hour break in.

'Estimated'...... we know what that means eh? ;-)

 

[Vladimir]

Someone already ventures my business idea, damn it.

Cat7 audiophile ethernet cable by Purist Audio.

..and it needs a 100 hour break in.

'Estimated'...... we know what that means eh? ;-)

Aha, but there is a trick up turtle's sleeve. He uses an old Technics CDP for burning in cables. Clever!

 

[chebby]

I 'upgraded' from our boring, old, grey, Belkin CAT5E UTP cables (no shielding) to Belkin CAT6 STP (S/FTP) snagless in 10m, 5m, 2x2m and 2x1m lengths last year. (In different colours to jazz things up a bit.)

No cryo. treatment or 'running-in' required nor needed.

No percieved audio differences (as expected), just done to keep things up-to-date.

 

[Al ears]

I 'upgraded' from our boring, old, grey, Belkin CAT5E UTP cables (no shielding) to Belkin CAT6 STP (S/FTP) snagless in 10m, 5m, 2x2m and 2x1m lengths last year. (In different colours to jazz things up a bit.)

No cryo. treatment or 'running-in' required nor needed.

No percieved audio differences (as expected), just done to keep things up-to-date.

Up to date in the cable characteristics or colour scheme?? ;-)

 

[Brokenflame]

All else aside windows is terrible for sound quality just for starters

Hi EllisDJ,

Like MacOSX there is a setting to adjust the output Sample Rate and bit Depth. If you are having issues with poor quality sound from your PC or Laptop, I would be happy to make some sugestions which could improve your experience.

It is important to use the sound drivers supplied by the Sound Card supplier and not the default drivers bundled with Windows, if you are already doing this then may I sugest upgrading your sound Hi EllisDJ,

Like MacOSX there is a setting to adjust the output Sample Rate and bit Depth. In the Midi setting (MAC OS) or Sound setting (Windows) in the control panel.

Changes in Windows Vista made this less relevant, which upset many Sound Card manufactures such as Creative Labs. However, for the best experience it is still best to use the vendor’s drivers.

If you are experience artifacts in your sound, such as humming or clicking, then you may be experiencing other issues with your hardware; clicks are usually interference from the Hard drive (not applicable for system with Solid State Drives). Hums are usually to do with IRQ Sharing.

There is always the obvious question, are you using the lineout to your Amp or the headphone jack? Where possible you should use the lineout.

If you are already doing all of the basic then may I suggest upgrading your sound card, or using an external DAC. AudioLab do a great USB DAC as do Cord and Cambridge Audio.

-- Apologies if this post comes across the wrong way, I am genuinely trying to be helpful. I truely believe a properly configured computer be it Mac/Linux or Windows can produce a good source single to be feed into an amp of your choice.

 

[Brokenflame]

Error correction cannot be used on Tosh link or other one-way communication channels. As such longer stretches of cables used for Tosh link will be more expensive as the quality of the cable will need to be improved to cope with the additional distance.

Toslink uses the S/PDIF protocol which does not support error detection or correction.

It is however quite possible to have error detection and correction on a 'one way channel' by introducing additional information to the datastream.

A CD is a 'one way channel', data flows from the CD, but if corrupted on the CD there is no way to request another copy. There is however sufficient redundant data in the CD bitstream to allow errors to be detected and to be corrected. Google Reed/Solomon and Hamming codes.

Thank you. I should have been more exact it what I said, point taken. I will try harder in future.

 

[Vladimir]

All else aside windows is terrible for sound quality just for starters

Hi EllisDJ,

Like MacOSX there is a setting to adjust the output Sample Rate and bit Depth. If you are having issues with poor quality sound from your PC or Laptop, I would be happy to make some sugestions which could improve your experience.

It is important to use the sound drivers supplied by the Sound Card supplier and not the default drivers bundled with Windows, if you are already doing this then may I sugest upgrading your sound Hi EllisDJ,

Like MacOSX there is a setting to adjust the output Sample Rate and bit Depth. In the Midi setting (MAC OS) or Sound setting (Windows) in the control panel.

Changes in Windows Vista made this less relevant, which upset many Sound Card manufactures such as Creative Labs. However, for the best experience it is still best to use the vendor’s drivers.

If you are experience artifacts in your sound, such as humming or clicking, then you may be experiencing other issues with your hardware; clicks are usually interference from the Hard drive (not applicable for system with Solid State Drives). Hums are usually to do with IRQ Sharing.

There is always the obvious question, are you using the lineout to your Amp or the headphone jack? Where possible you should use the lineout.

If you are already doing all of the basic then may I suggest upgrading your sound card, or using an external DAC. AudioLab do a great USB DAC as do Cord and Cambridge Audio.

-- Apologies if this post comes across the wrong way, I am genuinely trying to be helpful. I truely believe a properly configured computer be it Mac/Linux or Windows can produce a good source single to be feed into an amp of your choice.

If only there was a product that can solve all of this and turn a noisy PC in a perfectly behaved dedicated music transport.

 

[Gazzip]

I missed you Vladimir. *biggrin*

This could be very interesting viewing/reading. Ellisdj's 'PC' is no ordinary PC...

 

[Brokenflame]

As a computer hardware developer I can categorically say, that the statement "USB audio can never sound as good as CD" is incorrect.

CD Audio source is 2 Channel signed 16-bit Linear PCM. This means that the hardware in your CD player does not even need to cope with data rates exceeding 150KBps (1xCD speed).

I hope your hardware design is better than your maths.

16bits x 44.1Khz x 2 = 1.411Mbs (approx 1.5Mbs)

That would be 1,500Kbs not 150Kbs.

Those wretched decimal places are nothing but trouble.

CD at 1X is 153,600 bytes per second, or about 150KBp/s. Not to mention you forgot to do the conversions from bits to bytes and the to KB and MB.

With your maths this would workout as follows:

16bits x 44100 = 705600. => Convert to Bytes [705600/8 = 88200] => Convert to KB [88200/1024 = 86.132KB] => Multiply by the number of channels [86.132*2 = 172.26KBp/s]

***Correction... 16bits at 44.1Khz for both channels not per channel. So stereo sound on a CD is 86.132KBp/s (I might be wrong on this though)

Which I think we can all agree is a lot smaller than 1.5MB

Don't make start Quoting RFCs at you. I can't be bothered enough to go and find the Red Book, so lets not quible about the 22.26KBp/s. Just trust me on this. CD-ROM single speed is specified to read at about 150KBp/s

 

[Brokenflame]

I missed you Vladimir. *biggrin*

This could be very interesting viewing/reading. Ellisdj's 'PC' is no ordinary PC...

*music2* Not trying to start a flame war. Electronics are just a little close to my heart and I'm happy to help out anyone to a reasonable extent to get the best out of thiers.

I would like to know the specs on his rig now its come up though. I'm expecting something special , mines a run of the mill MacBook Pro these day due to work requiring so much compute power everything has to be simulated in the Cloud.

 

[Gazzip]

I missed you Vladimir. *biggrin*

This could be very interesting viewing/reading. Ellisdj's 'PC' is no ordinary PC...

*music2* Not trying to start a flame war. Electronics are just a little close to my heart and I'm happy to help out anyone to a reasonable extent to get the best out of thiers.

I would like to know the specs on his rig now its come up though. I'm expecting something special , mines a run of the mill MacBook Pro these day due to work requiring so much compute power everything has to be simulated in the Cloud.

I for one am genuinely interested in what you have to say. There are some long suffering electronics engineers on this forum. Their insight is both fascinating and informative, but we could do with a computer hardware designers input/advice on this complex/cutting edge subject.

 

[lindsayt]

I went to the Linn Exakt demo and workshop at Scalford yesterday. I also visited sunbeamgls's room - where he was exhibiting his Exakted system.

My impressions were that Exakting your system will make more of an improvement than changing the digital source - for most people reading this - but less of a difference than changing your speakers - for most people reading this.

This means that I'd be confident that a USB computer based digital source with Exakt would sound better than a traditional CD player based system (without Exakt).

 

[Andrewjvt]

I missed you Vladimir. *biggrin*

This could be very interesting viewing/reading. Ellisdj's 'PC' is no ordinary PC...

*music2* Not trying to start a flame war. Electronics are just a little close to my heart and I'm happy to help out anyone to a reasonable extent to get the best out of thiers.   

I would like to know the specs on his rig now its come up though. I'm expecting something special , mines a run of the mill MacBook Pro these day due to work requiring so much compute power everything has to be simulated in the Cloud.

I for one am genuinely interested in what you have to say. There are some long suffering electronics engineers on this forum. Their insight is both fascinating and informative, but we could do with a computer hardware designers input/advice on this complex/cutting edge subject.

 

Plus one

 

[Vladimir]

I went to the Linn Exakt demo and workshop at Scalford yesterday. I also visited sunbeamgls's room - where he was exhibiting his Exakted system.

My impressions were that Exakting your system will make more of an improvement than changing the digital source - for most people reading this - but less of a difference than changing your speakers - for most people reading this.

This means that I'd be confident that a USB computer based digital source with Exakt would sound better than a traditional CD player based system (without Exakt).

Cease and desist sir. They use ethernet cable. No USB used at all (see back of unit).

 

[ellisdj]

I have been able to get about a 25% sound quality improvement from my system just from changing the version and optimising windows.
Total cost to me was £145 and a lot of hours of work.
I apprciate the suggestions from the other chap but its well beyond all that mate.

Windows generically is not good for serious audio.
Lucky smarter people than me have done a lot of the optimisation work. I just then had to take to as extreme a level as possible.

 

[Vladimir]

My favorite audio reviewer recently lost his mind over a $700 Purist Audio USB cable. *lol*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWb2yxWx8YA

 

[Al ears]

My favorite audio reviewer recently lost his mind over a $700 Purist Audio USB cable. *lol*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWb2yxWx8YA

Lost his mind? Obviously this happened before he bought it.....