Turntable or not turntable

[Al ears]

What's better MC or mm

MC in absolute terms, but they are expensive, really need a better player and a good and matching phono stage or step up.

The cheapest setup that I would be happy recommending would be the Clearaudio Concept MC £1400 (includes a £400-500 MC cartridge) and add the matching Nano V2 phono stage £225.

Overbudget but not hugely so, might get a deal if you buy the 'package'.

was just looking at the clearaudio MC is the phono stage good enough or would the primare be better

Impossible to say without trying them.

One important note is that MC cartridges need careful matching, in terms of sensitivity and impedance and top end phono stages will usually take this into account. Using the Clearaudio pair should at least ensure that matching is optimum.

I would also bear in mind that moving coil cartridges are normally just that, no means of renewing by just buying a new stylus. Cheap MC's are, therefore, not the way to go. Sticking with MM cartridges at least up to £500 means a cheaper phono preamp can be employed.

There is nothing cheap about good moving coil cartridges, the possible exception being the Denon DL103 series that offer staggering value.

However once you get used to them it is very hard to go back to MM designs. Of course this is a totally subjective view and the cost spirals alarmingly, but for me it in inconcievable that I would buy a player with an MM cartridge. The cost however is frightening, one of the primary reasons I gave up on viny some 15+ years ago.

The basic DL103 is still very cheap, needs a very high mass arm though it should suit your 310. Can't remember the the ideal load impedance of the top of my head but the output is quite healthy for a low output design. The DL103R has a higher compliance and would be more suited to lower mass arms such as the various Rega designs.

You are quite right about the 103R, I had one on an Origin Live tonearm in a previous set-up. Lovely sound for a cheapish MC but needed a cartridge stabiliser to add a bit more weight bringing into compatibility.

The feeling is mutual regards MC's but these mean more outlay to the average vinyl newly in the form of an external phono preamp as there aren't many integrated amps these days with an inbuilt phono stage capable of taking one.

Hence I was suggesting the OP avoid them.

 

[davedotco]

What's better MC or mm

MC in absolute terms, but they are expensive, really need a better player and a good and matching phono stage or step up.

The cheapest setup that I would be happy recommending would be the Clearaudio Concept MC £1400 (includes a £400-500 MC cartridge) and add the matching Nano V2 phono stage £225.

Overbudget but not hugely so, might get a deal if you buy the 'package'.

was just looking at the clearaudio MC is the phono stage good enough or would the primare be better

Impossible to say without trying them.

One important note is that MC cartridges need careful matching, in terms of sensitivity and impedance and top end phono stages will usually take this into account. Using the Clearaudio pair should at least ensure that matching is optimum.

I would also bear in mind that moving coil cartridges are normally just that, no means of renewing by just buying a new stylus. Cheap MC's are, therefore, not the way to go. Sticking with MM cartridges at least up to £500 means a cheaper phono preamp can be employed.

There is nothing cheap about good moving coil cartridges, the possible exception being the Denon DL103 series that offer staggering value.

However once you get used to them it is very hard to go back to MM designs. Of course this is a totally subjective view and the cost spirals alarmingly, but for me it in inconcievable that I would buy a player with an MM cartridge. The cost however is frightening, one of the primary reasons I gave up on viny some 15+ years ago.

The basic DL103 is still very cheap, needs a very high mass arm though it should suit your 310. Can't remember the the ideal load impedance of the top of my head but the output is quite healthy for a low output design. The DL103R has a higher compliance and would be more suited to lower mass arms such as the various Rega designs.

You are quite right about the 103R, I had one on an Origin Live tonearm in a previous set-up. Lovely sound for a cheapish MC but needed a cartridge stabiliser to add a bit more weight bringing into compatibility.

The feeling is mutual regards MC's but these mean more outlay to the average vinyl newly in the form of an external phono preamp as there aren't many integrated amps these days with an inbuilt phono stage capable of taking one.

Hence I was suggesting the OP avoid them.

You are quite correct.

Back in the day (around 1990) we had a source of Kiseki Purple Heart Saphire cartridges that we were able to retail at £1k. Less than half the price of the cheapest Koetsu Red.

We simply could not get enough to satisfy demand, fragile beast though they were. Sounded fantastic but looking at modern equivilents the prices are scary, a decent cartridge/phono amp can easily cost £5k, much, much more if you are really keen.

That said, my Koetsu and ARC Phono cost that and that was 20 years ago, very silly.

 

[Deleted member 108165]

Seemorebtts, good to see an OP returning with questions as this makes our time and effort worthwhile, thank you for this. I bet you thought this was going to be simple *biggrin* So did I three years ago!

What is your taste in music? Pop, Rock, Jazz, Classical? This will have a bearing on whether to consider vinyl as an option, or not. It will also, I believe, give us an idea of how much you really need to spend on a turntable.

Notwithstanding the above question there's a lot of good advice here, you just need to take it all in and contemplate your next move. MC is "probably" the place to be but there are pitfalls to consider if you travel this route, especially on cost, when an MC wears out it's either a re-tip or new cartridge time; plus you will need a more expensive phono stage. With MM you retain the cartridge body and just change the stylus, this is also an easy upgrade path on compatible cartridges from the same manufacturer; plus a cheaper phono stage can be used.

Caveat: neither of the above approaches are a panacea for all problems as they still have their drawbacks.

Back in my youth there was only the radio, vinyl or tape for music, and when CD hit I was first in the queue. Fast forward to three years ago I had an amp with a phono stage, one LP, and no turntable. Three years later I still own the same amp but I'm on turntable #3, cartridge/stylus #6, (#7 on its way), and now have about 50 LP's *biggrin* It's been an expensive ride but pocket change compared to what some of the members have spent on their vinyl playback systems. I have been guided along my path by the guys on here and have learnt an awful lot, so stick with us and we'll get you where want to be *smile*

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Would you say that MC is better then MM

and why does it matter which kind of music your into in regards to what cart and turntable ?

 

[muljao]

It must be said, starting a vinyl collection now is a big commitment. I was in a music shop (record/cd store) and Prince 1999 wa 40 euro/35 sterling probably 45 dollars. 4 months spotify for the average Joe soap, probably a bad way to look at it, especially as prince is not on spotify.

One needs to go with what they feel is best, some like convenience. some like a 12 inch vinyl between their paws with all the artwork and sleeves, so it's down to the person.

 

[seemorebtts]

Seemorebtts, good to see an OP returning with questions as this makes our time and effort worthwhile, thank you for this. I bet you thought this was going to be simple *biggrin* So did I three years ago!

What is your taste in music? Pop, Rock, Jazz, Classical? This will have a bearing on whether to consider vinyl as an option, or not. It will also, I believe, give us an idea of how much you really need to spend on a turntable. 

Notwithstanding the above question there's a lot of good advice here, you just need to take it all in and contemplate your next move. MC is "probably" the place to be but there are pitfalls to consider if you travel this route, especially on cost, when an MC wears out it's either a re-tip or new cartridge time; plus you will need a more expensive phono stage. With MM you retain the cartridge body and just change the stylus, this is also an easy upgrade path on compatible cartridges from the same manufacturer; plus a cheaper phono stage can be used.

Caveat: neither of the above approaches are a panacea for all problems as they still have their drawbacks.

Back in my youth there was only the radio, vinyl or tape for music, and when CD hit I was first in the queue. Fast forward to three years ago I had an amp with a phono stage, one LP, and no turntable. Three years later I still own the same amp but I'm on turntable #3, cartridge/stylus #6, (#7 on its way), and now have about 50 LP's *biggrin* It's been an expensive ride but pocket change compared to what some of the members have spent on their vinyl playback systems. I have been guided along my path by the guys on here and have learnt an awful lot, so stick with us and we'll get you where want to be *smile* 

very interesting fantastic response.im taking it all in my brain is like a sponge at the moment.i think this my be a difficult jump for me but I'm glad people on here are so helpful.a real eye opener.to be honest I wanted something to make my CD redundant so I have to make the right choice.i don't think listening in a shop will help as when you get home it's a different ballgame and I don't have anyone to lend me this.

 

[Al ears]

Would you say that MC is better then MM

and why does it matter which kind of music your into in regards to what cart and turntable ?

See DougK's post above.

There is no better as such just slightly different presentation. Moving magnet is better money-wise. Cheap moving coils ( usually high output are not to my liking and I am not sure why they exist).

Moral:- If you don't have around a grand to spare on cartridge and phono preamp then stick with Moving Magnet. Just my opinion you understand.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

I love listening to my turntable set up these days and barely ever listen to a cd,I've spent around 2k in the last year from turntable,cartridge to phono stage and every step has been a worthwhile upgrade,although the addition of the never connected psu was probably the least noticeable,but worth it to get the last ounce of performance from what I had.I don't believe you have to spend 5k to get a good sound from vinyl playback ,my previous project expression ,ortofon 2m blue and phono box se was perfectly capable at around £500,with the biggest improvements from going from a ortofon omb10 to the 2m blue.......it's all about the cart!at the end of the day all a turntable is,,,is a spinning platter and basically a transport system with the arm and cart being the dac if you like to use the cd player as a analogy.But I don't think I would have went down the vinyl route if I didn't already own a decent amount of vinyl.

 

[drummerman]

Would you say that MC is better then MM 

and why does it matter which kind of music your into in regards to what cart and turntable ?

See DougK's post above.

There is no better as such just slightly different presentation. Moving magnet is better money-wise. Cheap moving coils ( usually high output are not to my liking and I am not sure why they exist).

Moral:- If you don't have around a grand to spare on cartridge and phono preamp then stick with Moving Magnet. Just my opinion you understand.

Good advise

 

[Deleted member 108165]

Would you say that MC is better then MM

and why does it matter which kind of music your into in regards to what cart and turntable ?

I'm an exclusive MM man so I'll let the boys who have experience of both chip in for the MM/MC debate.

Read any vinyl forum and the majority will say that for classical music CD is king. Plus do you really want to spend £5K on a vinyl system to demonstrate just how poorly recorded some rock/pop records are *biggrin*

 

[Deleted member 108165]

very interesting fantastic response.im taking it all in my brain is like a sponge at the moment.i think this my be a difficult jump for me but I'm glad people on here are so helpful.a real eye opener.to be honest I wanted something to make my CD redundant so I have to make the right choice.i don't think listening in a shop will help as when you get home it's a different ballgame and I don't have anyone to lend me this.

Personally, I could never see a day where a purely vinyl-based system would ever replace my CD player, complement it yes, replace it... a definite NO. If you want to ditch your CD player then you really must have some kind of digital media player to replace it. There are way too many albums out there that are no longer avialable on vinyl, or for that matter, have never been available on vinyl.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

This is the issue I am facing do I or do not ?

am I right in saying that the people that are spending say £5000 on a TT and cart are chasing for cd quality sound but with vinyl ?

The thing is I have a load of vinyl that I collected over the years but no TT I am Irish

 

[nopiano]

This is the issue I am facing do I or do not ?

am I right in saying that the people that are spending say £5000 on a TT and cart are chasing for cd quality sound but with vinyl ?

The thing is I have a load of vinyl that I collected over the years but no TT I am Irish

The thing with records is one is always chasing 'perfection' and that is never achieved. For a few hundred quid you can get remarkably close with a CD player.

In the last decade, those of us who grew up with LPs have seen turntable prices rocket. Of course you can buy junk for £50 - something that revolves and gouges your £20 LP. For under a grand, Rega, Pro-ject and Michell do some nice tables.

But it is impossible to rationalise spending ten grand plus on LP replay. Look at the Linn forum and folk spend multiples of that. Get a state of the art US turntable and it's the price of a house. Fine if you get a huge bonus each year, or just sold your business for millions, but not for mere mortals!

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Well I was born 1971 so I did grow up with vinyl , tapes , reel to reel , because that's all there was back then but cds changed all of that so I look at vinyl as an old technology which it is .

i just want to play what records I do have but without spending silly money .

i do like the Pro - Ject classic I have seen one and it looks a good bit of kit I was told it's a well in engineered turntable and Mr Pro Ject had it in mind to build some like the classic for a long time so the sales man told me .

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

Hi Sabbath . that project classic will do just fine,stick a decent mm cart on it and you'll be in vinyl heaven.I love digging out my albums I've not played for a while...it's not just the listening but the digging through then,the album cover art work,having to get up off yer bum to change a side and it also encourages to listen to an album as a whole for said reason.Also records will hold their value much better than the humble cd and in cases appreciate in value if you look after them.go for it..no need to spend stupid money to get some satisfaction from the medium,just enjoy it for what it is and don't compare like for like with cd...it's a bit like owning a classic car....yes new ones out perform old classics in every way but they just feel and look right.lol.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I have had my eyes on the classic for sometime now but just did not know if it's any good or not I like the look of it it's my kind of thing retro look . The cart that is comes with is not that good so I've been told

what cart would you recommend ? Any would I have to buy anything else

sorry to the OP for high jacking your thread but you interest in the same deck as me and am glue less when it comes to TTs

 

[matthewpiano]

Would you say that MC is better then MM

and why does it matter which kind of music your into in regards to what cart and turntable ?

I'm an exclusive MM man so I'll let the boys who have experience of both chip in for the MM/MC debate.

Read any vinyl forum and the majority will say that for classical music CD is king. Plus do you really want to spend £5K on a vinyl system to demonstrate just how poorly recorded some rock/pop records are *biggrin*

My view is certainly that CD is king for classical music. It benefits greatly from the more silent backgrounds, longer continuous running time (having to turn over between movements of a symphony is distracting), and the complete lack of speed stability issues (particularly with piano music which easily shows up any such issues on a turntable).

 

[Al ears]

I have had my eyes on the classic for sometime now but just did not know if it's any good or not I like the look of it it's my kind of thing retro look . The cart that is comes with is not that good so I've been told

what cart would you recommend ? Any would I have to buy anything else

sorry to the OP for high jacking your thread but you interest in the same deck as me and am glue less when it comes to TTs

Perhaps reading some of the threads over in the Turntables and LOs subforum might help as these issuess are regularly posted.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

I think you'd be best staying with mm carts...I know you said that the yam can do moving coil but I reckon these are far better taken care of with external phono stages...so at least a 2m bronze if you want to go the ortofon route and if you can find a nagaoka mp300 in the same kind of price range . that would probably be the cart of choice for most folks,also audio technica at150mlx (available still from Amazon)has had some great reviews in the past.it's just a shame that carts can't really be demoed before you buy.I'm sure Al and bigfish can also contribute some fine mm carts for you to ponder.

 

[davedotco]

This is the issue I am facing do I or do not ?

am I right in saying that the people that are spending say £5000 on a TT and cart are chasing for cd quality sound but with vinyl ?

The thing is I have a load of vinyl that I collected over the years but no TT I am Irish

The better the vinyl player becomes, the less it sounds like vinyl.

That may sound like a contrdiction but the sound that most associate with vinyl replay is actually the sound of player, and very obvious it is too. People like it but it has very little to do with good quality vinyl playback.

In tonal aspects, top end vinyl players do sound more like CD than cheaper players, but there are other things going on too, surface noise is much reduces and, somehow, separated from the music. On the best players you actually have to listen specifically for it, if you listen to the music you barely hear it at all.

Furthermore the sence of space and 'reality' is somehoe enhanced, the sounstage is better delineated, the whole perfornance being that much more believable.

I know this level of performance is rarely heard and very expensive but to hear it, to live with it, really does stay with you, which is why, when I stopped playing vinyl, I stopped completely.

 

[Mammy Nun]

Better than cd....