Total newbie, £500, utter confusion.

[admin_exported]

Hi everyone,

Looking for some advice on getting started please.

I recently heard a high-end iPod dock (B&W Zeppelin) in a store and began to realise what I’ve been missing out on. I’ve never owned any decent audio gear and am totally new to the vocabulary, equipment and so on. I considered buying the Zeppelin but figured that for £400 I might as well invest in something a bit more flexible than a dedicated iPod dock. So I think I’m looking for a pair of loudspeakers and a box thing (amp, dac, something like that).

I’ve read through a bunch of reviews here and have scanned dozens of threads on the forum and I’m totally confused. Please help me narrow down my options. Here are my parameters.

Budget:
£400 up to an absolute maximum of £600. And that’s really pushing the boat out.

Source:
I’ll be using my laptop or ipod/iphone and mp3 music (I know, I know! One step at a time!). In fact, it would be best if I could bypass the laptop entirely (if it’s turned off or busy doing something else). Maybe I could just use my ipod, or even copy my music to a dedicated hard drive? In the future it would be useful if I could use the same system as part of a home cinema too, but I don’t know how that would work. First I’d need to buy a TV I suppose. A DAB radio would be a bonus too!

Environment:
This will be used in a medium-sized double bedroom but could be transferred to a medium-sized lounge room in the future. I will never be using it at a high volume because of the neighbours (their bedroom is on the other side of my bedroom wall). The speakers will have to fit on bookshelves, near the wall, maybe wall-mounted etc. The room is cluttered and very ‘lived-in’. Generally it will be used at a low volume.

Musical tastes:
I listen to a variety of stuff, much of it absolute trash. In the past couple of weeks I’ve been listening to Arcade Fire, The Flaming Lips, Air, Adele, Lady Gaga, the list goes on. I don’t like overwhelming bass (and neither would my neighbours) or that awful tinny sound (the smaller version of the Zeppelin – the Zeppelin Mini – sounded tinny to me). I’d like the set-up to be able to cope with most everything I throw at it, from Air-esque electonica to Adele-esque vocals to Lips-esque rock to Daft Punk. I’d also like it to be comfortable with olden-days jazz and modern classical music. So pretty much everything. Oh, and spoken word too.

Visuals:
I really hate audio kit that looks like it belongs in a boy-racer’s car. I think the B&W 685s are quite pretty looking.

Other comments:
Given that my ears are ignorant, I’m not really concerned about testing things out in store. Everything sounds amazing compared to my laptop. I’d prefer to buy something that is already popular, well-reviewed, and highly-regarded rather than go to a store and agonise over which kit sounds the best. I don’t even know what I’m listening for at this stage. Also, please suggest only things that definitely work well together.

I don’t think I need a dedicated sub.

I’d much prefer to buy brand new (as opposed to second-hand).

Thanks very, very much!

 

[Anonymous]

Hi there,

Firstly, welcome to the forum! You've come to the right place. I have to say though, take my warning - once you start getting into hi-fi, you may find the bug bites and subsequently your bank balance takes a serious drop!

Anyway, back to the question in hand. Given that you don't want to play music particularly loud, you would like a DAB radio and Ipod compatibility. I think you should give serious consideration to the Denon DM38DAB. You'll need to purchase the additional ipod dock but it should meet your needs quite nicely.

SuperFi do some good packages which include speakers, usually they are based around the what hi-fi award winners. See this link: http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/page/category.cfm/Category/253

All you'll need to do then is replace the cheap speaker cable that comes with the Denon. Some Chord Company Carnival Silverscreen will do nicely.

http://www.hificables.co.uk/11568/Chord-Carnival-SilverScreen-Speaker-Cable.html?referrer=froogle&utm_source=google&utm_medium=froogle&utm_campaign=pid11568

Let me know if you need any questions answering and I'll do my best.

Spooks.

 

[John Duncan]

The Denon's a good shout, as is the Marantz M-R603 with AirPlay. Add some Wharfedale Diamonds and bob's your uncle...

 

[chebby]

The Denon's a good shout, as is the Marantz M-R603 with AirPlay. Add some Wharfedale Diamonds and bob's your uncle...

I'd go for the Denon DM38DAB with better speakers (Monitor Audio BX2 for instance) rather than get the Marantz and be restricted in speaker choice.

Here's what I mean for £399.

(Yes the BX2s are a bit bigger but, unlike the smaller BX1s, they are front ported and should be better near a wall. They will also be better when you eventually move them to the living room as you plan to.)

 

[Anonymous]

Holy moley guys - that's fantastic! I'm so grateful, really.

The Denon looks like the ideal solution. I'll do some more research, but that one really looks good. And I don't think I'd need to splurge for the matching iPod dock because it has USB-input on the front, which is more convenient really as I find iPods a bit fiddly to operate when docked. I think the Marantz might be a bit over budget for me, unless anyone wants to put an argument for it?

As for the speakers - yes, those BX2s look like a good idea (does the Denon thingy definitely have enough beef to make them work?). So that puts me at about £400. Would I get any significant improvement if I added another £100-200 for the loudspeaker budget?

Thanks again guys - what a tremendous help.

 

[BenLaw]

The case for the Marantz over the Denon is improved sound quality and Airplay, which may well be a handy function given your needs.

If you're interested in the Denon, I'd go with Chebby's suggestion. The BX2 will be ideal first proper speakers. Obviously if you spend £200 more you'll get better speakers but the Denon might not get the best out of them. I'd say the Denon and the BX2s will be a good quality match. You can then save your £100-£200 for a year or two down the line, when you're used to better quality music, have maybe heard a few better systems and will have a better idea of your own preferences and where you want to invest in future.

Another option which hasn't been mentioned yet, given your suggestion of storing music on a hard disc, would be to buy a NAS and something like a Sonos ZP120 with some speakers. This would give you similar quality to the Denon, simple streaming without your laptop on and perhaps a better upgrade path - you would be able to add an external DAC, add separate amplification and upgrade the speakers.

Keep us informed what you get up to

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks for that - it was very helpful.

Looking into the Marantz and AirPlay I don't think that the benefits would be worth the extra expense to me at this time. And thanks for your feedback on the BX2s - that's a good point too so I'll stick with those.

The Sonos looks like a brilliant little device but I don't think it would be the right thing for me. Frankly I'm not going to be in a situation that would warrant a multi-room streaming thingy any time soon. Great suggestion though.

So it looks like I'm set on the Denon and the BX2s. Now for the really important decision... which colour for the speakers?!

But seriously, one final question - what do I need to know about cables and what should I be looking for? I know this was touched on above, but if anyone could clarify things for me a little I'd be grateful. It looks like the £399 package above includes a special cable and banana plugs - whatever they are.

Thanks.

 

[Anonymous]

Oh pants, one more thing.

Say in the future I buy a nice new TV. Would this Denon thing let me somehow use the BX2s as stereo speakers for the TV too? Surround sound can wait.

 

[chebby]

Oh pants, one more thing.

Say in the future I buy a nice new TV. Would this Denon thing let me somehow use the BX2s as stereo speakers for the TV too? Surround sound can wait.

Yes. Plug the TV into a spare/aux analogue RCA connection at the back.

 

[BenLaw]

But seriously, one final question - what do I need to know about cables and what should I be looking for? I know this was touched on above, but if anyone could clarify things for me a little I'd be grateful. It looks like the £399 package above includes a special cable and banana plugs - whatever they are.

Thanks.

As you will be getting an all-in-one unit you have no need for interconnects. You need speaker cable to run from the outputs of the Denon to the binding posts on your speakers. Superfi are providing you with some basic QED (a very reputable company) cable. Cable can attach with bare wires, banana plugs or spades, all of which have advantages and disadvantages. The most standard is probably banana plugs - you just push the connectors straight in.

If you've looked around the forum you'll be aware there are heated debates over whether / to what extent cables make a difference. Personally, I would stick with the QED you're given for now - as a newcomer you're unlikely to be able to tell the difference. If you pay for termination, even fairly cheap speaker cable costs a fair proportion of your budget. It's an area you could consider upgrading in some time down the line.

 

[Anonymous]

Again, thanks very much - you're really helping me a lot.

I've just been re-reading the BX2 review and noticed this towards the end:

Bi-wiring is another matter: we found that although the soundstage was a touch more open, it also became disorganized and the speakers lost confidence and precision. We preferred the single-wired listening experience.

What on earth does that mean?

 

[Anonymous]

Bi-Wiring your speakers means that you would use two pairs of speaker cables from your amp, 1 set to drive the tweeters and 1 set to drive the mid/bass. (the denon does not support bi-wire)

I'm a big fan of Chord cabling and can highly recommend the carnival silverscreen. Get them terminated with plugs on the end, the cables will be easier to install and also easy to periodically clean when the plugs start to oxidise.

spooks

 

[Anonymous]

Marantz MCR603 Plus BX2 Plus some wire for 600 quid here....

http://www.hifix.co.uk/mini-system-package-deals/marantz/mcr603-inc-bronze-bx2.html

(no connection to the suppliers but intending to get this deal myself)

 

[The_Lhc]

Bi-Wiring your speakers means that you would use two pairs of speaker cables from your amp, 1 set to drive the tweeters and 1 set to drive the mid/bass. (the denon does not support bi-wire)

It won't support bi-AMPing, any amp can support bi-wiring though.[/quote]

 

[Blackdawn]

As your using your laptop/ipod as source (make sure quality of songs set to lossless) this gives your more of the budget to spend on the rest of your kit.

You don't need to spend a fortune on new components. With my setup I picked up a decent amp for £40 and then spent most of the budget on speakers. As you don't need to buy a CD player this saves some as well.

I would recommend you get an external DAC such as CA Dacmagic, Firestone Spitfire Mk2, Arcam Rdac, beresford Caiman etc (£200-300)

£100-200 for amp (ebay). Less if your lucky like me.

The rest on speakers and some thick copper cable. Don't forget speaker stands unless your going to use floorstanders.

 

[The_Lhc]

The Sonos looks like a brilliant little device but I don't think it would be the right thing for me. Frankly I'm not going to be in a situation that would warrant a multi-room streaming thingy any time soon.

You don't have to use it for multi-room, it'll serve a single room perfectly well but I'm not convinced it's the right solution for you.[/quote]

 

[The_Lhc]

Another option which hasn't been mentioned yet, given your suggestion of storing music on a hard disc, would be to buy a NAS and something like a Sonos ZP120 with some speakers. This would give you similar quality to the Denon, simple streaming without your laptop on and perhaps a better upgrade path - you would be able to add an external DAC, add separate amplification

Not with a ZP120 you couldn't, it has no audio outputs, digital or analogue.

 

[chebby]

You don't need to spend a fortune on new components. With my setup I picked up a decent amp for £40 and then spent most of the budget on speakers. As you don't need to buy a CD player this saves some as well. I would recommend you get an external DAC such as CA Dacmagic, Firestone Spitfire Mk2, Arcam Rdac, beresford Caiman etc (£200-300) £100-200 for amp (ebay). Less if your lucky like me.

The OP made a point of saying he prefers to buy brand new...

I’d much prefer to buy brand new (as opposed to second-hand).

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks again all - very helpful and thought-provoking.

I've been reading up on the Denon DM38DAB over on AVForum (thread here) and I've come across a few things that concern me. None are deal-breakers, but they're giving me pause for thought.

- The system can only handle digital music libraries with 255 folders or fewer. My music library is bigger than that at Artist level - before even getting down into the Album folders. This means that I couldn't just dump my whole library onto an external HDD. Some jiggery-pokery would be necessary.

- There are a number of reports of a problem with hum/hiss when using headphones. I probably wouldn't use headphones much but it would annoy me knowing that I'd spent £200 for something flawed.

- Navigation sounds a bit fiddly. Also, when connecting an mp3 player (e.g. iPod/iPhone), the Denon sees the devices as a USB drive rather than properly docking with it. This means that I wouldn't be able to use the iPod screen to choose my songs and wouldn't be able to use my iTunes playlists easily.

- (EDIT) Another niggle - apparently when playing back mp3 albums, the Denon always leaves a little gap between tracks. Annoying when listening to albums that blend between tracks. Also, the Denon will only play mp3 and wma digital files - no aac or lossless formats.

It seems that a number of AVForum people are suggesting that people consider some Onkyo kit as alternatives to the Denon. Does anyone have any thoughts on that?

Edit: Here's the review of the comparable Onkyo (link). You know, I'm thinking the Denon is the answer. If my library is too big for the Denon to cope with I'll just split it alphabetically over two memory sticks. And it has a CD player, so gapless playback can be done through that. Right, I think that might just be me sorted.

 

[chebby]

You are new here so probably haven't read the rules yet. You might want to edit your last post and 'disappear' the link to the other place. (Against house rules alas.)

 

[Blackdawn]

You don't need to spend a fortune on new components. With my setup I picked up a decent amp for £40 and then spent most of the budget on speakers. As you don't need to buy a CD player this saves some as well. I would recommend you get an external DAC such as CA Dacmagic, Firestone Spitfire Mk2, Arcam Rdac, beresford Caiman etc (£200-300) £100-200 for amp (ebay). Less if your lucky like me.

The OP made a point of saying he prefers to buy brand new...

I’d much prefer to buy brand new (as opposed to second-hand).

Too true Chebby- I was just highlighting the kind of setup you can get for this kind of budget. I believe you get much better performance from the kind of system I'm talking about then a Denon micro. Apart from the amp the other two items I mention I was suggesting to purchase new (e.g. DAC and speakers). Cheers.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks guys.

The only reason I dismissed second-hand equipment is that I know so little about hifi that it just seemed to over-complicate things too much. I'm such a newbie that I'm not even really clear on what an amp does (think there might be a clue in the name though...), never mind how to choose a used one. Just seemed like it might be taking on too much. Thinking about it a bit more, I'd really like a system with a CD-player too, so buying a dedicated DAC and amp probably wouldn't be the best solution for me right now. Thanks though for the suggestion.

Just in case anyone is interested in following the course of my (in)decision... I'm now wondering about putting up the extra £200 and going for the Marantz MCR603 (which would total £600 with a pair of BX2s), but that's really serious cash for me so I'm taking some time to mull things over (and get paid). Just seems like the Marantz is a much more polished machine, and if I was going to pay £200 for the Denon I might as well make sure I get something really good even if it means stepping up the price. I wonder - maybe I should think about getting some smaller (and cheaper) speakers than the BX2s. For one thing, my spacce is limited here and I'm having trouble figuring out where the BX2s would go, and for another it'd save me some cash. Then I could look at replacing the speakers when I have more living space. I guess it would be a strange thing to buy a better system with worse speakers, but I'm big on gadgety features and a good user-interface, and it sounds like the Marantz has the edge there - not to mention more supported file formats and Airplay.

Hmmmm.

 

[Blackdawn]

Hi spadger.

Okay, I understand now why you are not so keen on second hand hifi equipment. If you need help on which second hand amp or speakers to purchase just post a thread or read some of the previously posted threads on this forum (there are lots). This will give you some time to think about exactly what you want from your system.

If you are thinking of going for cheaper speakers (new) then I would suggest the Denon but if you plan on the Marantz I would try for more expensive speakers. Many people suggest spending 1/3 of your total budget on each of the three components (CDP, Amp, speakers) plus leaving some spare for things like cables and stands. If you go for floorstanders you won't need stands.

Work our what room you have for your system in your current room and then decide/work out what can fit. For example you don't want massive floor standers if you have no space. If you lacking space, again the Marantz MCR603 seems like a good purchase but I would go for speakers at least as good as the BX2's and they would take much better. Don't forget to run the updates if you get this unit. There are various recent threads about the Marantz MCR603 here.

 

[Anonymous]

The only reason I dismissed second-hand equipment is that I know so little about hifi that it just seemed to over-complicate things too much.

That's fine, just remember that most hi-fi is built to last and second-hand does not automatically mean inferior. In my opinion, second-hand is a great way to get into the whole hi-fi thing, since it allows you to get more quality for less money. Once you get used to a more refined sound, you'll (hopefully) be able to tell more clearly what you like and do not like about the sound, and it'll be much easier to get advice based on your tastes.

As a specific example, I heard a pair of Kef Reference 104s today. The speakers are as old as I am, and I still liked them better than the Dali Ikon series next to them. And I think very highly of the Dali's. Even better, they were going for less than a third of the price of the Dali's.

In my experience, if the Marantz is within your reach (even if you have to stretch your budget a little), you're better off with saving a bit more and getting the Marantz. Settling for a lesser option will always leave you wondering. Especially since an all-in-one system cannot be upgraded later by replacing parts of it.

 

[Anonymous]

Hi again all,

Just wanted to let you know what I've decided after your kind and generous advice.

I've decided to keep saving for a little while longer and then go for the Marantz MCR603 and the Bronze BX2 speakers. The more I looked into it, the better the Marantz sounded - it really looks like a wonderful little machine, well specced, more versatile and great quality. As for the speakers, I'm going for the BX2s mainly because of the price. In time I'll upgrade them to something more befitting a quality piece of kit like the Marantz, but as someone said upthread - they look like a great 'first loudspeaker'.

Thanks again for all of your help - I'm really grateful.