Too much speaker

[jmjones]

I've only tried one sub in my system, and just plain didn't like it - good with Movie effects, and keeping my daughter awake (bedroom over that end of living room). Less so for music and I suspect that was due to my preferences (like a bit of clarity).

I will be interested in how you go on with it, it might get me on a re-try. Last time I came to the totally unjustified conclusion that using subs was like putting a trailer on a sports car so I didn't need to fill the boot!! *crazy*

And by the way, well done for getting a few threads together that show what can be done on a good forum. Very positive, interesting and possibly deliberate on your part I'm sure. Nice job. *good*

 

[newlash09]

I've only tried one sub in my system, and just plain didn't like it - good with Movie effects, and keeping my daughter awake (bedroom over that end of living room). Less so for music and I suspect that was due to my preferences (like a bit of clarity).

I will be interested in how you go on with it, it might get me on a re-try. Last time I came to the totally unjustified conclusion that using subs was like putting a trailer on a sports car so I didn't need to fill the boot!! *crazy*

And by the way, well done for getting a few threads together that show what can be done on a good forum. Very positive, interesting and possibly deliberate on your part I'm sure. Nice job.  *good*

 

I haven't tried a sub on my stereo setup so can't speak from experience. But the Americans as a rule of thumb, pair small subs with bookshelves. So they sacrifice on the lower bass extension for speed.

They use big subs 12 Inc + only with floor standers, with cross overs in or below the 40hz range. So they get the extension required, but sacrifice speed, which at that low frequency goes unnoticed.

I noticed this when using the qacoustics q7000i package. The small satellites were crossed over to the sub at 100hz. And the QA sub is small with just a 8 inch driver. It can only go to 36hz. But what it looses in extension, it adds in speed. And their combination for music was stellar. I could never make out where one ended and the other started .

Now using the same sub with the concept 40's crossed over at 60hz is not in the same league to my ears. Iam no audio expert, but I'd like to believe that as the same sub starts going lower, it also started slowing down. So the bass even when dialled down on the sub, sounds a bit disconnected. And this is in my opinion because of speed

 

[BigH]

American homes are generally much larger than the UK ones. Some are made out of wood, much of the bass will go straight of them. Some is about taste and what sort of music you listen to. For music such as Jazz I find stand mounts are fine and I have been to jazz concerts. My last house with smaller room and suspended woden floor the bass was too much.

 

[insider9]

I love the sound of double bass. Particularly jazz recordings. Most modern standmounts can't do justice to the likes of Charles Mingus or Charlie Haden or modern artists like Esperanza Spalding.

 

[davedotco]

There is a number of things going on here, firstly it is important to realise that although my main speakers are floor standing, they really are small speakers, something between AE1 actives and ADM9/10s in overall capability. For practical reasons I want to keep them.

The last time I lived with subwoofers, they were some behemoth ATCs that I had with my 'full range' electrostatics, they were only used on large scale music, for more intimate performances they were switched off. So not a totally positive experience.

In recent times I have been playing some electronica, trip hop and ambient stuff in the main and the very low end is missing. Also, in my normal nerdish/obsessive manner I have been listening to recording studios, most recently Columbia's 30th Street facility in New York. This is a converted church and a big space, I'm pretty sure that a lot is going on that I am not hearing.

Another converted church, this time local to me in Barnes, is another favourite studio that I am listening to, these are some of the reasons I am looking at a subwoofer.

Initially I am going to try and set it up without using DSP, I have access to a calibrated microphone so I shall see what happens. I have had some success, to my ears anyway, setting up subs for others though they often do not agree with my settings, wanting far more bang for their not inconsiderable expendature. Oh well....

 

[davidf]

I’ve not read the thread other than a few opening posts, but I’ve been basically saying this for quite some time, and it’s one of the main reasons why I’m doing what I’m doing.

 

[davedotco]

As a dealer you should have a reasonable idea of what is possible at different price points and a decent grasp of the strengths (and weaknesses) of different components.

You should also, if you are doing the job properly, spend a fair amount of time in peoples homes and getting to hear what most people use as a hi-fi system. In the main I found results pretty disapointing, most setups could be easily improved, often at modest cost for the simple reason that most were selected from 'doing your homework', reading reviews and getting other peoples opinions.

In essence, punters ended up buying other peoples favourite equipment rather than a setup that suited their environment and their needs, the modern focus on bigger and 'better' speakers has only made this worse!

PS David... Read the whole thread, it's quite good in parts...*dirol*

 

[jmjones]

David (x2)

have you had chance to compare ae1 actives vs. Kef ls50 wireless units? I must be one of the few people “underwhelmed” by the kefs. Possibly it was room acoustics. I would be interested in your views on the sq side of it rather than functionality.

 

[davidf]

You should also, if you are doing the job properly, spend a fair amount of time in peoples homes and getting to hear what most people use as a hi-fi system. In the main I found results pretty disapointing, most setups could be easily improved, often at modest cost for the simple reason that most were selected from 'doing your homework', reading reviews and getting other peoples opinions.

In essence, punters ended up buying other peoples favourite equipment rather than a setup that suited their environment and their needs, the modern focus on bigger and 'better' speakers has only made this worse!

I’ve partially quoted your post, as this is on the mark. Rather than try something that is far more suitable to their environment, many nowadays tend to buy on price, either at sale time or ex demo bargains (limiting suitable choice), which involves just a few clicks - downside is no advice, the upside is that it makes forums busier when the new addition underwhelms.

Most places would rather sell you bigger and “better” speakers. These speakers may well be better, but not necessarily for the environment they’ll be living in. The problem is, that many believe that bigger is better (and sometimes quite rightly), so any other approach is outside of their thought process.

 

[davidf]

David (x2)

have you had chance to compare ae1 actives vs. Kef ls50 wireless units? I must be one of the few people “underwhelmed” by the kefs. Possibly it was room acoustics. I would be interested in your views on the sq side of it rather than functionality.

Room acoustics shouldn’t really be an issue. The thing about the KEFs is that despite being a simple solution, there’s quite a bit of scope for getting it wrong. I dare say that if you booked a demo with 10 retailers to hear them, the majority would just plug them in and play them to you - only a small minority will actually sit down for an hour before you arrive and take the time to set them up properly for the environment they’re being demonstrated in. Personally, I think these should be limited distribution, as with the passive version, as the latter rarely seems to be used with suitable amplifiers. You only have to look at some of the “package deals” with LS50s - some of them are laughable, and are purely a box shifting exercise rather than one of offering a genuinely matched system.

 

[davedotco]

I was very lucky that I learned my 'trade' in the early 80s and most of my time on the 'shop floor' was in the 80s and early 90s.

Whatever your views on the then dominant Linn/Naim axis, in the 80s at least they, and their dealers, were still commited to selling equipment by comparitive demonstation and crucially in my view, often installing them in their customers home.

Whilst this introduced a degree of rigidity in terms of the product stocked and in terms of system hierarchy, the upside was that the dealers knew what worked and what did not and the results in customers homes was invariably good and often excellent.

The hierachy of the day required that really good, large speakers only belonged in the very best systems and in practical terms this was very sensible indeed, as was the requirement that the speakers worked well against the wall, after all all rooms have walls!

Dealers were helped by the lack of the internet and the then fairly modest influence of the magazines, although the choices were not always that wide, the customer was far more likely to end up with a system that worked well, suited his room and his requirements. The downside for the dealer was that although a few customers would buy into and go through the whole structured upgrade process, many were very happy with their system and kept it, largely unchanged, for years.

 

[davidf]

I was on the tail end of that, starting in 1990, but the Linn/Naim thing was still going strong then. My first retailer was a Linn/Naim outlet, along with the rest of the usual Brits like Cyrus, KEF, Rega, Musical Fidelity, Michell, Arcam etc. I’ve never really changed my views on system hierarchy since then, despite digital in many forms becoming dominant - I still feel source is important (depending on the budget and aim of the end user).

 

[insider9]

It may go some way to explain why so many older setups I hear are sounding so well balanced and for the lack of the better word... right.

One point David touched on with demos is that nowadays sadly some dealers don't take anywhere near enough care when setting up demos. With customers going away with the wrong impression of equipment.

Another thing that surprised me with demo rooms that so often you see demo rooms untreated. And the notion that's because most people don't have acoustic room treatment for me is absurd. Shouldn't dealers be leading by example? When I'm in a demo I want to listen to a system on show not the room.

 

[davidf]

Another thing that surprised me with demo rooms that so often you see demo rooms untreated. And the notion that's because most people don't have acoustic room treatment for me is absurd. Shouldn't dealers be leading by example? When I'm in a demo I want to listen to a system on show not the room.

The problem is getting the balance right. Some might expect room treatment in order to hear the equipment at its best, but others might be very put off if they think they are going to have to do the same thing at home to get similar results. Would the average person want to hear their next purchase in the perfect room, or in an average room that’s more representable of the norm?

The good thing about having a normal room is that some manufacturers take steps for their speakers to work better in normal rooms - they may not show their true colours in a treated room. And some speaker types work better in normal rooms too.

Maybe dealers need two hi-fi demo rooms...

 

[Samd]

It may go some way to explain why so many older setups I hear are sounding so well balanced and for the lack of the better word... right.

One point David touched on with demos is that nowadays sadly some dealers don't take anywhere near enough care when setting up demos. With customers going away with the wrong impression of equipment.

Another thing that surprised me with demo rooms that so often you see demo rooms untreated. And the notion that's because most people don't have acoustic room treatment for me is absurd. Shouldn't dealers be leading by example? When I'm in a demo I want to listen to a system on show not the room.

That is a real dilemma though. Treat the punter to really great sound which, following purchase, they can never attain at home and who will they blame? I, as by no means a unique example, could never countenance 'treatment' and, I suspect that the vast majority of purchasers are similar. All that said, I can appreciate that, from your position, the system fails you.

 

[jmjones]

Particularly as I’m thinking about setting up a second system which by nesessity would mean smaller speakers. Although I have an old Audiolab 8000s in the attic. Any thoughts on a standmount that would work in a 4x4m room, plastered walls and wood floor? Budget up to a grand, and I’m always good for a second hand set.

 

[insider9]

I get that point David. I really do but I'm not talking studio level of room treatment.

I appreciate that demo rooms are the square footage that you need to pay the rent on and some dealers don't even have facilities to demo. But the again the point of acoustics room treatment isn't in enhancing the sound as such but getting rid of nasty room interaction. Having to pay the rent each month wouldn't you want the best return on your investment?

You can still have quite a live room that's more in line with average listening space but with linear reverberation, first reflection points that are not destroying imaging and looking fairly average.

"Would the average person want to hear their next purchase in the perfect room?"

The thing is the perfect room is no room at all. Other than that it's always a compromise and the level of treatment can vary seriously based on the use and the taste.

I also believe there's nothing like an average room and based on that by limiting room interaction seems the most logical way for me. I can see how some people could have doubts about this though.

 

[insider9]

Particularly as I’m thinking about setting up a second system which by nesessity would mean smaller speakers. Although I have an old Audiolab 8000s in the attic. Any thoughts on a standmount that would work in a 4x4m room, plastered walls and wood floor? Budget up to a grand, and I’m always good for a second hand set.

Bets would be to start a new thread. Most people won't even notice this if it's in this thread.

 

[Gray]

I've found most demo rooms to be more suited to audio than the majority of domestic setups.

The best imaging l've ever heard was in a demo room, with nothing between the speakers.

How many people have only space between their speakers?

 

[davidf]

I've found most demo rooms to be more suited to audio than the majority of domestic setups.

The best imaging l've ever heard was in a demo room, with nothing between the speakers.

How many people have only space between their speakers?

And that’s the other major factor. If you book a demo with someone, you’ll be treated to a room that is relatively bare of furniture, probably unlike your own room, the speakers will be in the very best place for them, which more than likely won’t correspond to any position you’re able to achieve at home - how many people actually place their speakers three feet into their room?

There'll generally be nothing between the speakers (although, that is highly recommended if possible), and the sofa won’t be along the back wall where yours is, it’ll be two thirds back in the room - almost guaranteed!

How many places will actually try and recreate your own room and listening situation at home?

 

[insider9]

I'm starting to appreciate how much thought went into the whole business model and how specialised your dealership is. Even the name makes more sense now.

 

[davidf]

I'm starting to appreciate how much thought went into the whole business model and how specialised your dealership is. Even the name makes more sense now.

Maybe I’m not making things clear enough

I feel a blog coming on...

*biggrin*

 

[jjbomber]

Even the name makes more sense now.

Davidf??? His mum gave him that name.

 

[insider9]

Even the name makes more sense now.

Davidf??? His mum gave him that name.

*biggrin*

The Little Audio Company

 

[insider9]

I'm starting to appreciate how much thought went into the whole business model and how specialised your dealership is. Even the name makes more sense now.

Maybe I’m not making things clear enough  

I feel a blog coming on...

*biggrin*

Hahaha

It's not you, it's me

I'm coming at it from a completely different angle. And don't really think the same way as many people. Hence don't either need nor want small speakers, don't care what equipment looks like and use acoustic room treatment.