Too much speaker

davedotco

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Firstly, this is inpired by a thread on HifiWigwam, here.

I am not sure of the protocols here, linking to another forum, but I am being quite transparent and I think it is very interesting.

To summarise, this thread suggests that, given the modest size of most listening rooms and the understandable reluctance of many to indulge in heavy acoustic treatment, it is very easy to overload the room with 'too much speaker'

This is a phenominom that I find to be very common, the current 'philosophy' of putting the emphasis more on speakers seems to be at least partly to blame for this as indeed is the trend towards floor standing speakers.

The effect of putting too much, mostly bass energy into a room, has an unpleasant effect of bloating the bass and 'muddying' the midrange, even at quite modest levels, at kigher levels I find this unlistenable.

The proposed solution is to use a good pair of compact, two way standmounts with a subwoofer (or 2) a solution that I rather like and one that I intend to persue once I have moved home.

Insider9 - I know you are aware of the original thread, maybe you would like to add something?
 
D

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Interesting DDC. My personal experience would support this. My lounge is approx 4x3 metres, initially I tried floorstanders but wasn't happy so went for big standmounts, still not happy, ended up with the smallest speaker I've ever owned and it's smiles all round from me, doubt I'll ever revert back to floorstanders.
 

Gray

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In my small room it's been 2-way standmounts all the way.

Tried and rejected home-loaned floorstanders once (not really too much speaker, but certainly not right)

Interestingly, with me too, the smallest have been the best.
 
Gray said:
In my small room it's been 2-way standmounts all the way.

Tried and rejected home-loaned floorstanders once (not really too much speaker, but certainly not right)

Interestingly, with me too, the smallest have been the best.

Interesting. Personally I would keep seeking for an ideal speaker for given room size as being the only economical way to go. I believe I have found this with my EB2's. Admittedly the fact they are a sealed-box design probably helped.

The idea that a subwoofer be utilised for a music system is not new but integration of one into said system is never easy. I believe it is quite common in the States and they produce suitable 2.1 amplifiers like the Parasound Halo Integrated particularly for this purpose, that said they are often set-up in larger than your average UK room.The idea that a subwoofer will put less bass boom into a room is also somewhat confusing. The days of me wanting to 'feel' the music are long gone fortunately :)
 

davedotco

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Al ears said:
Gray said:
In my small room it's been 2-way standmounts all the way.

Tried and rejected home-loaned floorstanders once (not really too much speaker, but certainly not right)

Interestingly, with me too, the smallest have been the best.

Interesting. Personally I would keep seeking for an ideal speaker for given room size as being the only economical way to go. I believe I have found this with my EB2's. Admittedly the fact they are a sealed-box design probably helped.

The idea that a subwoofer be utilised for a music system is not new but integration of one into said system is never easy. I believe it is quite common in the States and they produce suitable 2.1 amplifiers like the Parasound Halo Integrated particularly for this purpose, that said they are often set-up in larger than your average UK room.The idea that a subwoofer will put less bass boom into a room is also somewhat confusing. The days of me wanting to 'feel' the music are long gone fortunately :)

There are a number of factors involved here. Given the size and solid construction of most british homes too much bass can be overpowering and, to my mind, quite unrealistic. Small speakers do better than we might think in terms of bass output, room gain has a big effect and in many cases can sound quite realistic.

This is complicated by the fact that a lot of mainstream speakers, and a lot of pop/rock recordings too, have a 'bump' in their response around 80Hz, this is designed to give 'weight' to the sound, sometimes successfully, often not. This can complicate matters when it comes to integrating a subwoofer which invariably in my experience is permitted to operate to a higher frequency than is best.

Even in 'proper' music systems, the subwoofer is usually allowed to run up to 80Hz, higher in some cases, partly because the the small main speakers roll off under about 80-100Hz according to their published spec. In reality, most speakers operate to lower frequencies due to room gain so the subwoofer cut off point can be usefully lowered.

It is not helped by the simple fact that most people buying subwoofers want to hear some effect for their considerable outlay wheras in a well integrated system the subwoofer will not be audible.

All this has been prompted by my impending move to a new home which has a quite large living space that looks about right for a 2.1 setup.
 

Samd

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My issue is one of safety. Some time ago, I had standmounts but due to the proximity of the corner door, they were just too easy to knock. Floorstanders, for me, work out to be much more stable. Additionally, my Anthem's ability to switch between profiles, with or without sub, has moved me to consider selling the sub given the bass control of the front speakers. I don't need crash bang wallop for films as that type is not really our bag.
 

hg

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Are tiny speakers with inadequate SPL and no bass really the solution to reproducing music in small rooms? I hope not because in a couple weeks I am moving to a small house and will be listening to music in a small L-shaped room. It will almost certainly be a challenging project to get decent sound but I hope an interesting one. I intend to DIY to get it. There is no room for large main speakers but scattering 4-8 small subs on bookshelves, cabinets and possibly the floor is an option. Targetted unobtrusive room treatment is a possibility such as absorbers in the gap between the top of a bookshelf and the ceiling. Intrusive room treatment is not.
 

gasolin

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DougK said:
Interesting DDC. My personal experience would support this. My lounge is approx 4x3 metres, initially I tried floorstanders but wasn't happy so went for big standmounts, still not happy, ended up with the smallest speaker I've ever owned and it's smiles all round from me, doubt I'll ever revert back to floorstanders.

very clean loud sound and good bass for there size

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AomRXZHA03M&t
 

Gray

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hg said:
Are tiny speakers with inadequate SPL and no bass really the solution to reproducing music in small rooms? I hope not because in a couple weeks I am moving to a small house and will be listening to music in a small L-shaped room. It will almost certainly be a challenging project to get decent sound but I hope an interesting one. I intend to DIY to get it. There is no room for large main speakers but scattering 4-8 small subs on bookshelves, cabinets and possibly the floor is an option. Targetted unobtrusive room treatment is a possibility such as absorbers in the gap between the top of a bookshelf and the ceiling. Intrusive room treatment is not.

Small speakers are not all inefficient with no bass.

I know some people are put off by the thought of small speakers.

Choose well and you might be surprised.
 
Sometimes I think I need to add a sub to the little 21's...as they don't have great extension but still go pretty deep for their size.....once I play a track that has some decent production behind it my thoughts on a sub all but evaporate....they really are a fantastic wee set of speakers if your compromised for space and need a speaker that can go pretty close to a wall....oh and I have tried floorstanders(monitor audio silver r6) in my room and to me they lacked that last bit of detail and pace that I had experienced with standmounts.....but I still wouldn't mind a pmc twenty sub...but it's a tad expensive for a subwoofer .
 
D

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Gray said:
Choose well and you might be surprised.

I know I was, astounding performance for their size. There are some excellent small speakers out there that appear to be able to pull-off bass delivery with ease.

If you're into solely classical then maybe the scale of floorstanders would be difficult to beat.
 

insider9

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I think it all comes down to the room size and materials used for walls, floor, etc. Imagine playing your hifi in a cave if don't know what I mean. The reverberation would amount to so much that you just would've be able to play loud.

However we don't live in caves. The original thread links American article that talks about small room and gives an example of 5mx8m... Can there be too much of a speaker in that size room? Well you'd really need to try very hard. Unless you're looking for concert SPL levels.

hg said:
Are tiny speakers with inadequate SPL and no bass really the solution to reproducing music in small rooms?

 

Absolutely not but room treatment and often DSP is necessary. I have two large floorstanders in a master bedroom. Yes in most cases you'd think I'm crazy but I use both acoustic treatment and DSP.

Oh and worth adding. The recent Kegworth hifi show had big speakers on show. Some bigger than an adult male. Big Urei 811a on top of 15 inch subs were perhaps the largest.

They sounded great in a hotel room with no DSP and no room treatment. And bang against a wall. OK, bass maybe wasn't perfect but that's understandable.
 

MajorFubar

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davedotco said:
To summarise, this thread suggests that, given the modest size of most listening rooms and the understandable reluctance of many to indulge in heavy acoustic treatment, it is very easy to overload the room with 'too much speaker'...The proposed solution is to use a good pair of compact, two way standmounts with a subwoofer (or 2) a solution that I rather like and one that I intend to persue once I have moved home.

+1. I had floorstanding speakers but found that I couldn't get them to sound balanced at the kind of volume levels I'd listen at in my 15x12 front room. They had to be way too loud. Even discounting the fact I have neighbours to consider, anything much above 80dB at the listening postition (which is only about 13ft from the speakers) is uncomfortably loud, and in my case the bass just didn't come alive until you passed uncomfortably loud. Smaller speakers worked for me, first the EB2's now owned by Al Ears, and now the AVI DM10's and a sub. Unless I lived in a very big house, where is was filling a huge room with sound and sitting at least 20ft away from the speakers, I wouldn't go back to floorstanders.
 

insider9

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Was asking whether 2.1 setups are what we all should use in small rooms. I think for many the use of subs is a straight no. So they try to fit large speakers into a tiny room.

One example like this I've once visited a guy living in a house share. His room was a single bedroom. He mentioned having floorstanders there before and had a NAD M2 amp... Listening distance was about 1m. I kid you not. That's probably why many audiophiles are seen as a little bonkers.
 

BigH

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hg said:
Are tiny speakers with inadequate SPL and no bass really the solution to reproducing music in small rooms? I hope not because in a couple weeks I am moving to a small house and will be listening to music in a small L-shaped room. It will almost certainly be a challenging project to get decent sound but I hope an interesting one. I intend to DIY to get it. There is no room for large main speakers but scattering 4-8 small subs on bookshelves, cabinets and possibly the floor is an option. Targetted unobtrusive room treatment is a possibility such as absorbers in the gap between the top of a bookshelf and the ceiling. Intrusive room treatment is not.

I don't think subs on bookshelves is a good, think about one under or near the sofa. 1 or 2 is enough. Consider wall mounted speakers. Personally I don't like subs and I don't need a lot of bass, too much bass I find tiresome. If don't live in a detached property I would be aware the neighbours will not appreciate it either.
 

Blacksabbath25

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I do not have any issues with my floor standing speakers and the bass is not booming but am I wrong in thinking that each company’s floor standing speaker can act differently like B&W speakers I heard they can be very bass heavy correct me if I am wrong but some floor standing speakers can be a handful in the bass region where some floor standing speakers are not so heavy in the bass region so I would of thought you could probably get away with using the more tamer ones maybe in a smaller room .

I am afraid I am not a big fan of stand mounted speakers as I feel the ones I’ve heard sounded like small boxes and at the time I demoed price range around £1500 - £1800 and they still sounded like a box when playing which put me off buying them .

but then I heard some stand mounted speakers B&Ws on Ellis YouTube video and they sounded really nice I no it’s YouTube but you kind of get the picture of what they sound like .
 

hg

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Gray said:
Small speakers are not all inefficient with no bass.

I know some people are put off by the thought of small speakers.

Choose well and you might be surprised.

Small speakers with bass (i.e. small subwoofers) will be inefficient. This follows from Hoffman's iron law (Hoffman was the H in KLH). Fortunately these days low frequency power amplifiers are cheap and efficient. They will situated out of the way in the cupboard under the stairs.

Below a few hundred Hz, say 400Hz for discussion, the room response dominates what we perceive which means that pretty much all that is required from a speaker is sufficient SPL with reasonably low distortion. Something else has to control the room response. Currently (but subject to possible change as I gather more information) I intend to control the room response below about 80 Hz by using small subs distributed around the room on the walls. These will absorb more low frequency sound than they emit which will require a lot of cone area. A 6.5" 2 way enhanced by 20 dB of room boom may sound loud enough but after the subwoofers absorb that 20 dB room boom and the sound becomes tight and clean rather than boomy it won't be able to cleanly reproduce something like a kick drum. The subs need to be individually DSP controlled.

Above about 80Hz we can perceive the direction of sound and so the source has to be predominately the main speakers (actually there are tricks that can be done with time delays if I get stuck but I don't intend to start with that sort of thing). Controlling the room response from 80-400Hz is probably the most difficult aspect. Active absorption at these frequencies gets very expensive because the cone size determines the highest frequency that can be controlled but you still need a lot of area to make a significant difference (e.g. how much sound is lost when a window is opened). Passive absorption is more cost effective but it cannot be the typical big pillows because these will efficiently absorb high frequency sound which is likely to be already adequately absorbed by the room furnishings such as curtains, chairs, sofas and the like. Another approach is to use a narrow beam width which will put less energy into some of the modes in this frequency range easing the task of controlling those that are.

Above 400Hz the directivity and frequency response of the speakers starts to dominate the perceived sound. The scattering and absorption of the room will still be heard but we seem able to hear through it to the characteristics of the speakers (e.g. recognising a familair voice in different rooms). Early reflections will interfere with the imaging and possibly change tonal balance. Speaker directivity and orientatiion relative to boundaries is important. The L-shape of the room will not help.
 

hg

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BigH said:
[I don't think subs on bookshelves is a good, think about one under or near the sofa. 1 or 2 is enough. Consider wall mounted speakers. Personally I don't like subs and I don't need a lot of bass, too much bass I find tiresome. If don't live in a detached property I would be aware the neighbours will not appreciate it either.

As far as I am aware, distributed subs are the only practical way to get high quality bass in the home. A single sub or large drivers in the mains excites the room modes in a manner that cannot be controlled. Equalisation can improve things by knocking down the peaks but it cannot fill in the dips which requires absorption of some form. Below 80Hz most passive absorbers are ineffective and all need to be huge. This leaves active absorption such as using subwoofers located well away from the mains where they couple differently to the room. The subs generally need to be DSP controlled so that they can do different things at different frequencies. Subs with only gain, phase, crossover slope and frequency as controls will not work (although one could still add the DSP upstream).
 

newlash09

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Need atleast one of these to complete my kind of sound. Real bass impact, where it has to be felt, as much as heard.

But I have always been a bass head, so this is my requirement. So goes to show there are no absolutes here. Genere and personal preference play a part.

I went for the parasound mainly because of its sub woofer integration. And the PMC's dole out serious bass, and I have forgotten all about adding a sub. Plenty of bite on bass guitar riffs, to the point where a track like 'oak cliff' will unsettle anyone in the room, it they are not familiar with the track, and have braced themselves for some serious bass slam. And this particular track has bass guitar reverb, that either needs a speaker that goes low down clean with lots of texture or a sub to appreciate the beauty of it all.
 

insider9

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For me it doesn't have to be felt. But it needs the natural fullness, texture and attack. I'm yet to get this from modern standmounts or small floorstanders. Bar perhaps a pair of PSI A21m I've recently heard and thought I could live with.

Subs can be a good extension but with well designed three way there isn't much point. With two way they're almost always a must.
 

davedotco

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Come into play with this issue, not least the preferences of the user.

For example, generally speaking I find that a lot of low bass in a small (normal) sized room to sound unrealistic, it just sounds wrong.

That said, I find some aspects of extended bass response is needed to get a real feel for the environment that the music exists in so I very much want to get a sub into my system.

When we move home my new setup will place the sub in what should be a very good position, nearest sidewall about 10ft away and a very 'open' position so this is when I shall do this. My small floorstanders produce substantial output down to around 50-60Hz (measured) in my current room, whilst this is absolutely fine on much of what I play with respect to reproducing the instruments, I think low frequency ambient cues are being missed.

Most mid priced floor standers do not really work for me, the deep bass may be present but I find that it lacks definition and confuses tempo, possibly because of the muddying effect it has on the mid band. My current speakers, though floorstanders, are pretty small, two tiny bass drivers with 4.5 inch cones gives about the same radiating area as a nominally 6.5 inch driver, so pretty similar to a lot of stand mounts.

Quite looking forward to being able to try this, be a month or two though.
 
Gray said:
hg said:
Are tiny speakers with inadequate SPL and no bass really the solution to reproducing music in small rooms? I hope not because in a couple weeks I am moving to a small house and will be listening to music in a small L-shaped room. It will almost certainly be a challenging project to get decent sound but I hope an interesting one. I intend to DIY to get it. There is no room for large main speakers but scattering 4-8 small subs on bookshelves, cabinets and possibly the floor is an option. Targetted unobtrusive room treatment is a possibility such as absorbers in the gap between the top of a bookshelf and the ceiling. Intrusive room treatment is not.

Small speakers are not all inefficient with no bass.

I know some people are put off by the thought of small speakers.

Choose well and you might be surprised.

+1

Many smaller standmounts are designed with small British rooms in mind, it's simply a matter of spending time to find the right one

The idea that you buy one or two decent subwoofers to compensate is economic nonsense. For a music / movie set-up I might say otherwise but not for purely music.
 

newlash09

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davedotco said:
Come into play with this issue, not least the preferences of the user.

For example, generally speaking I find that a lot of low bass in a small (normal) sized room to sound unrealistic, it just sounds wrong.

That said, I find some aspects of extended bass response is needed to get a real feel for the environment that the music exists in so I very much want to get a sub into my system.

When we move home my new setup will place the sub in what should be a very good position, nearest sidewall about 10ft away and a very 'open' position so this is when I shall do this. My small floorstanders produce substantial output down to around 50-60Hz (measured) in my current room, whilst this is absolutely fine on much of what I play with respect to reproducing the instruments, I think low frequency ambient cues are being missed.

Most mid priced floor standers do not really work for me, the deep bass may be present but I find that it lacks definition and confuses tempo, possibly because of the muddying effect it has on the mid band. My current speakers, though floorstanders, are pretty small, two tiny bass drivers with 4.5 inch cones gives about the same radiating area as a nominally 6.5 inch driver, so pretty similar to a lot of stand mounts.

Quite looking forward to being able to try this, be a month or two though.

 

Would be interesting to know, how you plan to integrate the sub with your floorstanders. Are you considering something like deqx or mini DSP to act as a crossover, or will you be going for a sub with high pass filters. Thanks.
 

newlash09

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Al ears said:
Gray said:
hg said:
Are tiny speakers with inadequate SPL and no bass really the solution to reproducing music in small rooms? I hope not because in a couple weeks I am moving to a small house and will be listening to music in a small L-shaped room. It will almost certainly be a challenging project to get decent sound but I hope an interesting one. I intend to DIY to get it. There is no room for large main speakers but scattering 4-8 small subs on bookshelves, cabinets and possibly the floor is an option. Targetted unobtrusive room treatment is a possibility such as absorbers in the gap between the top of a bookshelf and the ceiling. Intrusive room treatment is not.

 

Small speakers are not all inefficient with no bass.

I know some people are put off by the thought of small speakers.

Choose well and you might be surprised.

+1

Many smaller standmounts are designed with small British rooms in mind, it's simply a matter of spending time to find the right one

 The idea that you buy one or two decent subwoofers to compensate is economic nonsense. For a music / movie set-up I might say otherwise but not for purely music. 

But it's not uncommon to find Americans using twin sub setups. And both subs in stereo and not mono. I don't think that sub 60 Hz separation will add to imaging, as it is omnidirectional at that level. But just wanted to point out, that there are bass freaks out there who need 2 subs, and we are sneering at one :)
 

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