Tone Controls

[Freddy58]

Hiya folks

No doubt, this topic has cropped up before, so I apologise if it's a boring topic.....I'm just curious.

I've been into Hi-Fi, on and off, for a number of years, although never seriously. I've always got the impression (from 'those in the know') that tone controls were unnecessary if the components were 'up to it'. But really, is it as simple as that? Surely, we all have personal preferences when it comes to how we want the 'tonality' to be? Do not tone controls allow us to fine tune the sound according to taste?

Cheers...Freddy

 

[steve_1979]

It depends on the music.

Some music is badly mastered with too much treble and using tone controls can improve the sound. Other music such as rave music sounds better with more bass and tone controls can help here too. But good quality, well mastered music sounds right to start with so there's no need to use tone controls with this.

 

[plastic penguin]

This is one thing I miss with the Leema. Tone controls do allow you tweak any nasty recordings, but outside budget models, amps with tone controls are fast becoming a rare breed.

 

[lpv]

This is one thing I miss with the Leema. Tone controls do allow you tweak any nasty recordings, but outside budget models, amps with tone controls are fast becoming a rare breed.

devialet, mcintosh, meridian, classe, bang and olufsen to name just a few hardly budget models

 

[plastic penguin]

This is one thing I miss with the Leema. Tone controls do allow you tweak any nasty recordings, but outside budget models, amps with tone controls are fast becoming a rare breed.

devialet, mcintosh, meridian, classe, bang and olufsen to name just a few hardly budget models

Never said those makes you mentioned were budget, did I?

Cyrus, Leema, Roksan, Arcam FMJ range, Exposure 2010 upwards, Naim and a host of other makes DON'T have tone controls.

 

[lpv]

no, you did not say mentioned brands are budget but you did say: "outside budget models, amps with tone controls are fast becoming a rare breed" so I've put few names and I don't feel like tone controls becoming rare breed.. I would say vast majority of british amps lacks tone controls, some kind of industry fashion.. well designed tone controls are helpfull, but then you won't repair really bad recordings at home.

... accuphase, luxman, myryad, parasound..

 

[Al ears]

I can remember the days ewhen just about every man and his dog had a Graphic Equaliser in his set-up.

Tone controls may be useful for some that have an overly 'bright' system or whatever.

Using them to 'correct' bad recordings brings me to the point of saying 'what is a bad recording' is it one that doesn't sound quite right to you or what? There a very few 'bad recordings' that I have found these days. Maybe some rough old seventies CD's but cannot say any recent stuff I have heard was bad.

Some recordings are specifically asked, by the artist, to be recorded / produced in a certain manner. This might not be quite as you think it should sound so you can either spend hours playing with your tone controls or you can leave them switched off and assume the resultant sound is 'fidelity'.

 

[DIB]

My Creek doesn't have tone controls, and I can't say I've ever thought I wished it had. Previously I've had Marantz and Rotel amps with tone controls yet never used them.

.

 

[tommie_boi]

Is it a crime, to use tone controls? No it is not, look at Luxman or Accuphase. It is better to have it and not use it than need it and not have it, simple.

 

[chebby]

My Creek doesn't have tone controls, and I can't say I've ever thought I wished it had. Previously I've had Marantz and Rotel amps with tone controls yet never used them..

The Creek Evolution 50a now has them.

 

[Al ears]

My Creek doesn't have tone controls, and I can't say I've ever thought I wished it had. Previously I've had Marantz and Rotel amps with tone controls yet never used them..

The Creek Evolution 50a now has them.

It is interesting to see that although the 50a has them the more expensive Destiny 2 does not appear to have them.

 

[Al ears]

My Creek doesn't have tone controls, and I can't say I've ever thought I wished it had. Previously I've had Marantz and Rotel amps with tone controls yet never used them..

The Creek Evolution 50a now has them.

It is interesting to see that although the 50a has them the more expensive Destiny 2 does not appear to have them.

Regarding the 'upper end' amplifiers that do it seems some manufacturers figure there is a market demand for some sort of tone controls and others, quite obviously, do not.

 

[chebby]

My Creek doesn't have tone controls, and I can't say I've ever thought I wished it had. Previously I've had Marantz and Rotel amps with tone controls yet never used them..

The Creek Evolution 50a now has them.

It is interesting to see that although the 50a has them the more expensive Destiny 2 does not appear to have them.

It's an older model.

It will be interesting to see if their new 100a amp will have them or not.

 

[eggontoast]

There's nothing wrong with using tone controls, but I personally find them useless.

They are far to limited to be of any use, I find a graphic much more useful as you can tweak the required frequency band rather than the standard 100Hz - 10kHz points of bass and treble controls.

 

[chebby]

It's a bit like seasoning your food. Some people will not use any seasoning at all. Some will taste first and then adjust if necessary and some will automatically season their food regardless.

It is becoming more likely that 'tone' adjustments will happen in the digital domain like in the Creek 50a and the Naim UnitiQute with their 'Switchable Bass Contour Control' - for low-volume listening - that automatically reduces the effect as the volume is raised.

More systems will have such features (and other more useful and more sophisticated DSP modes) as the vestiges of 1980s 'hair shirt hi-fi' thinking disappear and people begin to demand these features in more expensive systems too.

The days of having to adjust the 'character' of a system - whether just for the duration of a track or permanently due to a room change - by expensively changing major components (or endlessly swapping cables to dubious effect) should be over. All this should be within the control of the user. No more debates about 'warm', 'smooth', 'bright', components or 'best system for classical', or 'best system for heavy metal' etc. Just switch it into the appropriate mode (or customise your own) and enjoy.

(I can almost sense the 'purists' frothing at the mouth and stroking their old copies of 'The Flat Response' for comfort!)

 

[Al ears]

It's a bit like seasoning your food. Some people will not use any seasoning at all. Some will taste first and then adjust if necessary and some will automatically season their food regardless.

It is becoming more likely that 'tone' adjustments will happen in the digital domain like in the Creek 50a and the Naim UnitiQute with their 'Switchable Bass Contour Control' - for low-volume listening - that automatically reduces the effect as the volume is raised.

More systems will have such features (and other more useful and more sophisticated DSP modes) as the vestiges of 1980s 'hair shirt hi-fi' thinking disappear and people begin to demand these features in more expensive systems too.

The days of having to adjust the 'character' of a system - whether just for the duration of a track or permanently due to a room change - by expensively changing major components (or endlessly swapping cables to dubious effect) should be over. All this should be within the control of the user. No more debates about 'warm', 'smooth', 'bright', components or 'best system for classical', or 'best system for heavy metal' etc. Just switch it into the appropriate mode (or customise your own) and enjoy.

(I can almost sense the 'purists' frothing at the mouth and stroking their old copies of 'The Flat Response' for comfort!)

Just on the way up to the loft to retreive my copies now.

 

[stevebrock]

Nevr felt the need for tone controls - I have had Rotel & Marantz amps and never used them

 

[andyjm]

Making high quality analogue filters that accurately track each other (for 2 channel stereo) that introduce little noise, phase and amplitude distortion is difficult and expensive. Cheap and cheerful analogue filters (the electronic bits behind the tone controls) arguably did more harm than good, and so the higher end amp manufacturers either included a 'tone control defeat' button, or did away with the controls entirely.

There is no chance that you are hearing the mix in the way the original mixing engineer intended unless you are using the same speakers, arranged in the same way, in the same acoustic space as the engineer used - and you are not. The biggest impact on perceived sound is the speaker / room interaction, so the 'I want it to be original' argument against tone controls in my opinion has no legs at all. Applying appropriate filtering can correct for many of the ills suffered by real life setups.

The challenge is that a coarse base and treble controls aren't sufficiently discriminating to do much good. What is needed is a much more sensitive set of controls to correct for room / speaker anomalies. These days, extremely sophisticated filter regimes can be constucted in software and implemented as digital filters.

I have an acoustically treated listening room that frankly sounds dreadful. I have a comprehensive room equalisation regime in place that turns a dreadful sound into something quite acceptable.

Check out:

http://www.roomeqwizard.com/

 

[jonathanRD]

Nevr felt the need for tone controls - I have had Rotel & Marantz amps and never used them

+1

My previous Technics amp had them but I never used them.

 

[peterpiper]

This is one thing I miss with the Leema. Tone controls do allow you tweak any nasty recordings, but outside budget models, amps with tone controls are fast becoming a rare breed.

devialet, mcintosh, meridian, classe, bang and olufsen to name just a few hardly budget models

isnt mcintosh part of marantz? who also still put controls on their higher end stuff, I only tend to adjust the bass a few db up on bright or thin recordings,

never feel the need to change the treble from the 0 centre position

if i ever buy an amp without tone, i would get an active sub to up the bass if needed

 

[matt49]

Making high quality analogue filters that accurately track each other (for 2 channel stereo) that introduce little noise, phase and amplitude distortion is difficult and expensive. Cheap and cheerful analogue filters (the electronic bits behind the tone controls) arguably did more harm than good, and so the higher end amp manufacturers either included a 'tone control defeat' button, or did away with the controls entirely.

There is no chance that you are hearing the mix in the way the original mixing engineer intended unless you are using the same speakers, arranged in the same way, in the same acoustic space as the engineer used - and you are not. The biggest impact on perceived sound is the speaker / room interaction, so the 'I want it to be original' argument against tone controls in my opinion has no legs at all. Applying appropriate filtering can correct for many of the ills suffered by real life setups.

The challenge is that a coarse base and treble controls aren't sufficiently discriminating to do much good. What is needed is a much more sensitive set of controls to correct for room / speaker anomalies. These days, extremely sophisticated filter regimes can be constucted in software and implemented as digital filters.

I have an acoustically treated listening room that frankly sounds dreadful. I have a comprehensive room equalisation regime in place that turns a dreadful sound into something quite acceptable.

Check out:

http://www.roomeqwizard.com/

Yes, good post.

Though odd to hear your room is acoustically treated and still sounds dreadful. Why?

I ask out of genuine interest as I'm currently treating my room. My listening position is against a wall (unavoidably), and I was using the tone controls in my Devialet to take 1-2dB off the top end. That worked OK, but now that I've put some GIK panels up behind the listening chair, the sound has improved massively. It's not just that I can now dispense with the tone controls; the whole sonic picture seems clearer, including the soundstage.

This goes back to something I was saying recently on another thread. Tone controls and EQ are a good thing (esp. in the form of DSP), but if the problem is speaker-room interaction, in many cases it'll be better to treat the room (if you can) than to use tone controls.

Matt

 

[peterpiper]

There's nothing wrong with using tone controls, but I personally find them useless.

They are far to limited to be of any use, I find a graphic much more useful as you can tweak the required frequency band rather than the standard 100Hz - 10kHz points of bass and treble controls.

i remember those seperate equilisers in the eighties and ninties with all the sliders and dancing leds , kind of wanted one until i realised just how much distortion they have to really mess the sound up, I came to the conclusion thingssound better left flat

thank god they where just a fad

 

[steve_1979]

There's nothing wrong with using tone controls, but I personally find them useless.

They are far to limited to be of any use, I find a graphic much more useful as you can tweak the required frequency band rather than the standard 100Hz - 10kHz points of bass and treble controls.

+1

Tone controls are too much of a blunt instrument. A good quality graphic equaliser is far more useful.

 

[steve_1979]

if i ever buy an amp without tone, i would get an active sub to up the bass if needed

That's what I do. A separate subwoofer (and some active speakers) allow you to add more bass by adjusting the volume level and crossover of the bass speaker which means you can get more bass without adding any of the phase distortion that tone controls and graphic equalisers introduce.

With the treble I have no option other than to use a digital graphic equaliser to change the sound but provided it's used subtly (-1 or 1.5 dB) I don't notice the small amount of added phase distortion.

 

[plastic penguin]

There's nothing wrong with using tone controls, but I personally find them useless.

They are far to limited to be of any use, I find a graphic much more useful as you can tweak the required frequency band rather than the standard 100Hz - 10kHz points of bass and treble controls.

+1

Tone controls are too much of a blunt instrument. A good quality graphic equaliser is far more useful.

A graphic equalizer takes up more room.