Tin hat time!

[Vladimir]

Do you think electricity generated by burning oil, or gas, or coal sounds better? Which company? SSE? EoN?

Is the mains better north of Birmingham or south?

Does your listening room window face north, south, east or west? Which is best?

Which loudspeaker veneer sounds best? Cherry? Oak? Rosewood? Vinyl?

Which meds sound better? *crazy* Indica or Sativa?

 

[andyjm]

Bluezip,

I think your reply above was victim of the dreadful WHF forum software.

The PS audio DAC uses DLNA to access the NAS, DLNA in turn uses TCP which is a lossless async protocol. Unless your old cat5e cable was knackered, there is no way it wouldn't have coped with the relatively low bitrate required for audio.

So, if it isn't the data making a difference, what else? PS audio make a big deal about their fancy clock, so it can't be anything to do with timing - and TCP is async anyway.

Your powerline extender is however the work of the devil, squirting who knows what RF down the mains cable. Perhaps your old cat5 cable was acting as an aerial and your PS audio box has sub-standard filtering? Absent suggestion bias (which I am pretty sure is the answer), try throwing the powerline extender away and see if that makes any difference.

 

[chebby]

Bluezip, please amend your post to remove the appearance that I think ethernet cables make a difference!

The software may be clunky but misquoting makes it appear that I agree with you.

For the record this is the extent of my earlier post (the rest was your invention/mistake) ...

I'll admit I recently 'refreshed' my dull, dusty, grey, old CAT5E UTP (unshielded) for brand new CAT6 STP/SFTP (foil shielded) Belkin cable in four jazzy colours!

It just cheered me up and - arguably - the shielding might help near PSUs etc. but I doubt any real audio quality improvements were made. Working in IT then I know - from training and experience - that certified cable from a competent manufacturer works if the appropriate type is used. You don't get superior bits, or faster bits, or bits that are particularly suited to making music sound 'airier' or more 'agile', or whatever.

 

[Bluezip82]

I'll admit I recently 'refreshed' my dull, dusty, grey, old CAT5E UTP (unshielded) for brand new CAT6 STP/SFTP (foil shielded) Belkin cable in four jazzy colours!

It just cheered me up and - arguably - the shielding might help near PSUs etc. but I doubt any real audio quality improvements were made. Working in IT then I know - from training and experience - that certified cable from a competent manufacturer works if the appropriate type is used. You don't get superior bits, or faster bits, or bits that are particularly suited to making music sound 'airier' or more 'agile', or whatever.

Thanks for your reply and I agree with what you are saying but it does not change the fact that I hear a noticeable improvement in SQ. Yes an ethernet cable should make no difference at all but I thought I would share my experience with people who know about these things more than me.

For what its worth my set up is an ethernet cable from my PS Audio Direct Stream Junior DAC (not wireless) to a Powerline adaptor. In another room an ethernet cable from bt router to Powerline adaptor and ethernet cable from NAS to bt router.

Actually I had a shower just before listening so that probably made the music sound cleaner!

 

[Bluezip82]

Sorry about that, would not want to give the wrong impression.

Anyway, life's too short to worry about what I can hear and what I can't - subject closed.

Thanks for your input.

 

[seemorebtts]

Feel free to do your own research as to why the differences you think you've heard just cannot possibly exist. You don't even need to put much research into it to realise it's not possible. But people who start threads like this don't usually want to educate themselves of the facts or have anyone explain to them why they are mistaken. They usually only want to read posts from people who either believe the same as they do or who defend other forum-members' rights to post any old rubbish unchallenged.

Enjoy your thread.

so are you saying that when I use a power cable or interconnect or Speaker wire that when i hear a difference its my mind playing tricks on me.if that's so then when i buy a new CD player or amp that also means my mind is playing tricks when i hear a difference.so all this hifi is for nothing just a magic trick?

Seemore,  I know you feel strongly about this, but I am afraid the scientific truth is that humans are rubbish at making objective comparisons, are highly susceptible to suggestion bias, and changing one perfectly good cable for another perfectly good cable won't make an audible difference. 

Changing equipment is a different matter, that may well result in a different sound.

not all wires can improve listen some can make it bad.i can go as far as to make your ears bleed on mine 🙂

 

[Andrewjvt]

Feel free to do your own research as to why the differences you think you've heard just cannot possibly exist. You don't even need to put much research into it to realise it's not possible. But people who start threads like this don't usually want to educate themselves of the facts or have anyone explain to them why they are mistaken. They usually only want to read posts from people who either believe the same as they do or who defend other forum-members' rights to post any old rubbish unchallenged.

Enjoy your thread.

so are you saying that when I use a power cable or interconnect or Speaker wire that when i hear a difference its my mind playing tricks on me.if that's so then when i buy a new CD player or amp that also means my mind is playing tricks when i hear a difference.so all this hifi is for nothing just a magic trick?

Seemore,  I know you feel strongly about this, but I am afraid the scientific truth is that humans are rubbish at making objective comparisons, are highly susceptible to suggestion bias, and changing one perfectly good cable for another perfectly good cable won't make an audible difference. 

Changing equipment is a different matter, that may well result in a different sound.

not all wires can improve listen some can make it bad.i can go as far as to make your ears bleed on mine 🙂

Are you related to peterpan or obiwan kenobi?

 

[Vladimir]

Feel free to do your own research as to why the differences you think you've heard just cannot possibly exist. You don't even need to put much research into it to realise it's not possible. But people who start threads like this don't usually want to educate themselves of the facts or have anyone explain to them why they are mistaken. They usually only want to read posts from people who either believe the same as they do or who defend other forum-members' rights to post any old rubbish unchallenged.

Enjoy your thread.

so are you saying that when I use a power cable or interconnect or Speaker wire that when i hear a difference its my mind playing tricks on me.if that's so then when i buy a new CD player or amp that also means my mind is playing tricks when i hear a difference.so all this hifi is for nothing just a magic trick?

Seemore, I know you feel strongly about this, but I am afraid the scientific truth is that humans are rubbish at making objective comparisons, are highly susceptible to suggestion bias, and changing one perfectly good cable for another perfectly good cable won't make an audible difference.

Changing equipment is a different matter, that may well result in a different sound.

not all wires can improve listen some can make it bad.i can go as far as to make your ears bleed on mine 🙂

Are you related to peterpan, obiwan kenobi or Thompsonuxb?

 

[Frank Harvey]

Kudos to Bluezip for keeping his chin up and posting his findings, regardless of the flack he was going to get as a result. A true example of how to hold your head high, post your findings, and to hell with everyone else 🙂

Don't forget though that 'YOU ARE WRONG' (regardless of what you post), and there will always be those around to tell you so. And many of those that tell you so have probably never even handled, let alone listened to, whatever it is that you have experienced a difference with. I usually recommend living with something for a little while, then swapping it out, rather than quick A/B demos.

 

[andyjm]

Kudos to Bluezip for keeping his chin up and posting his findings, regardless of the flack he was going to get as a result. A true example of how to hold your head high, post your findings, and to hell with everyone else 🙂

Don't forget though that 'YOU ARE WRONG' (regardless of what you post), and there will always be those around to tell you so. And many of those that tell you so have probably never even handled, let alone listened to, whatever it is that you have experienced a difference with. I usually recommend living with something for a little while, then swapping it out, rather than quick A/B demos.

David,

Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.

Anyone can 'think' or 'feel' what they like about their HiFi, but underlying it all is a technical discipline, and a technical body of knowledge supporting it. By posting on a public forum, you are inviting a response (or why bother?).

When that response points out that to the poster that in spite of what he thinks or feels, that the situation he describes is nonsense from a technical perspective, it seems strange to be offended by this.

 

[Frank Harvey]

You cannot tell anyone they're wrong, not without being part of their experience (as long as it's not something blatantly crazy, of course). When cables (and most other products) are originally designed to perform a specific purpose, they're tested to a point where they're deemed suitable for the application. Beyond that, many products aren't tested further, so it isn't impossible for boundaries to lie beyond that point of testing. I wonder where we'd be if everyone took set boundaries as gospel...

 

[shadders]

You cannot tell anyone they're wrong, not without being part of their experience (as long as it's not something blatantly crazy, of course). When cables (and most other products) are originally designed to perform a specific purpose, they're tested to a point where they're deemed suitable for the application. Beyond that, many products aren't tested further, so it isn't impossible for boundaries to lie beyond that point of testing. I wonder where we'd be if everyone took set boundaries as gospel...

Hi,

I do not see any cable company pushing the boundries with regards to science. Possibly the cost to the customer boundary, but certainly no research and development of a cable. If they did - then they would publish their results.

What are you referring to in regards to the boundaries lying beyond the point of testing ?. There are no other effects or measurements other than what we already know.

I don't think you can take the approach science does not have all the answers, and then completely ignore expectation bias because it suits your argument, knowing that expectation bias exists and is the cause of perceived changes that are heard.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[andyjm]

You cannot tell anyone they're wrong, not without being part of their experience (as long as it's not something blatantly crazy, of course). When cables (and most other products) are originally designed to perform a specific purpose, they're tested to a point where they're deemed suitable for the application. Beyond that, many products aren't tested further, so it isn't impossible for boundaries to lie beyond that point of testing. I wonder where we'd be if everyone took set boundaries as gospel...

David,

At the margin, everything makes a difference to the sound coming out of the speakers. The question is whether it is audible or not. The vast balance of probability is that swapping a Ethernet cable on an asyncronous data feed to a DAC won't make an audible difference. No one on this forum (apart from me actually) has suggested why it might.

Suggestion bias is however well known, documented and a widely accepted phenomenon.

I am always surprised why when presented with the obvious conclusion - 'your perception isn't reliable', all sorts of pseudo-science hocus pocus is presented as a counter argument.

Not wishing to pick on you, but one can only guess what "When cables (and most other products) are originally designed to perform a specific purpose, they're tested to a point where they're deemed suitable for the application. Beyond that, many products aren't tested further, so it isn't impossible for boundaries to lie beyond that point of testing. I wonder where we'd be if everyone took set boundaries as gospel... " is supposed to mean in this context.

If the cable is suitable for its application, quite what else were you hoping for?

 

[MajorFubar]

Feel free to do your own research as to why the differences you think you've heard just cannot possibly exist. You don't even need to put much research into it to realise it's not possible. But people who start threads like this don't usually want to educate themselves of the facts or have anyone explain to them why they are mistaken. They usually only want to read posts from people who either believe the same as they do or who defend other forum-members' rights to post any old rubbish unchallenged.

Enjoy your thread.

I was merely pointing out that I found a definite difference in sound quality between the two cables - fact, not a small nuance but a noticeable improvement and I agree there should not be any.

Perhaps you could educate me on why its not possible without the sarcasm?

A LAN cable is a LAN cable. It transmits digital data between two computers or between servers and computers. Digital data doesn't have bass or treble or midrange and doesn't care whether it is audio, video or anything else. Cat5 easily has the capacity to carry your digital audio without loss, so upgradig it to Cat7 will achieve nothing. What you really need to ask is why do you think the sound is different even though obviously it cannot be.

But my reply is pointless: like I've already said, most people who start threads like yours have already made their minds up and don't want anyone to tell them why they are mistaken, no matter how courteously it is explained, and they don't want to research the matter.

All those crazy airheads with daft ideas about cables are too myopic in their vision to even slightly consider what the potential impact would be in the real world if these tangible differences actually existed. Imagine if you were all correct and some dope used the wrong cable on a dialysis machine, heart monitor or iron lung. It could cost someone their life. It's absurd.

 

[macdiddy]

this obviously dead thread going, the original poster has long given up ( I don't blame them ) and now it has come to the usual and frankly boring conclusion like every other cable argument I've seen on this forum since I've been a member.

Anyone else who was thinking of posting a comment regarding cables, my advice is don't bother just keep it to yourself from now on.

*boredom*

 

[andyjm]

this obviously dead thread going, the original poster has long given up ( I don't blame them ) and now it has come to the usual and frankly boring conclusion like every other cable argument I've seen on this forum since I've been a member.

Anyone else who was thinking of posting a comment regarding cables, my advice is don't bother just keep it to yourself from now on.

*boredom*

Mac,

Assuming I haven't misunderstood your point of view, rather than the 'I don't like the game so I am taking my ball away to play somewhere else' approach, what about a spirited argument explaining how changing a cat5 cable to a cat7 cable is going to make a difference?

 

[Vladimir]

Is that we have to pretend like we don't know that David doesn't believe in the BS he's pushing. We need some honest folks with actual delusions to throw peanuts at. *boredom*

 

[shadders]

Bluezip,

I think your reply above was victim of the dreadful WHF forum software.

The PS audio DAC uses DLNA to access the NAS, DLNA in turn uses TCP which is a lossless async protocol. Unless your old cat5e cable was knackered, there is no way it wouldn't have coped with the relatively low bitrate required for audio.

So, if it isn't the data making a difference, what else? PS audio make a big deal about their fancy clock, so it can't be anything to do with timing - and TCP is async anyway.

Your powerline extender is however the work of the devil, squirting who knows what RF down the mains cable. Perhaps your old cat5 cable was acting as an aerial and your PS audio box has sub-standard filtering? Absent suggestion bias (which I am pretty sure is the answer), try throwing the powerline extender away and see if that makes any difference.

Hi,

I agree with this - the cable may cause signalling noise, Electromagnetic Interference, earth/signal loops, timing issues due to buffering of the packets, noise induced by either system (NAS, DAC, or other) processing latency variation etc.

Whatever the cause - due to known electrical and electronic phenomena - will not be able to be replicated to create the heard effects as has been stated. That is, you cannot state a specific CAT XXX cable has better imaging than another - these are just side effects of poor design, system interaction or a fault. You place that same cable in another system and the issues may be worse, better, or the same - but cannot be characterised in the same way as a speaker, or amplifier.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[Vladimir]

Where to buy

 

[shadders]

Where to buy

Hi,

Why is it an endgame?

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[Vladimir]

Where to buy

Hi,

Why is it an endgame?

Regards,

Shadders.

Well made, overkill really. Why would you need more?

 

[shadders]

Where to buy

Hi,

Why is it an endgame?

Regards,

Shadders.

Well made, overkill really. Why would you need more?

Hi,

I would suggest that a standard Belkin is sufficient. The standard to which CAT5 cables are manufactured to, ensures compatibility and performance despite cost. I suppose the more money you pay, the better people feel. And no one would sell a cable at exorbitant prices. It would just, not be right.....

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[Vladimir]

Where to buy

Hi,

Why is it an endgame?

Regards,

Shadders.

Well made, overkill really. Why would you need more?

Hi,

I would suggest that a standard Belkin is sufficient. The standard to which CAT5 cables are manufactured to, ensures compatibility and performance despite cost. I suppose the more money you pay, the better people feel. And no one would sell a cable at exorbitant prices. It would just, not be right.....

Regards,

Shadders.

The real weak point for me in ethernet cables are the cheap rubbish rj connectors. I've ruined many of them. Also I've never abused power or speaker cable like I have CAT5.

 

[shadders]

Where to buy

Hi,

Why is it an endgame?

Regards,

Shadders.

Well made, overkill really. Why would you need more?

Hi,

I would suggest that a standard Belkin is sufficient. The standard to which CAT5 cables are manufactured to, ensures compatibility and performance despite cost. I suppose the more money you pay, the better people feel. And no one would sell a cable at exorbitant prices. It would just, not be right.....

Regards,

Shadders.

The real weak point for me in ethernet cables are the cheap rubbish rj connectors. I've ruined many of them. Also I've never abused power or speaker cable like I have CAT5.

Hi,

Yes - i have a laptop and the RJ45 socket failed after 3 months - brittle pins. I would have thought for hifi, it is plug in once and let it remain in place.

Although wireless is an option. I will be bringing out a product in a can - special air, makes the Wifi EM waves travel with more accuracy, and less interference, adds better definition to the bits, thus enhancing the sound. You do need to spray regularly for optimal effect, and refills will be resonably cheap - only £99.99 which should last a month. It works 'cos i say it does and you can make your own mind up. Don't let anyone tell you different, you know what you hear.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[Vladimir]

Where to buy

Hi,

Why is it an endgame?

Regards,

Shadders.

Well made, overkill really. Why would you need more?

Hi,

I would suggest that a standard Belkin is sufficient. The standard to which CAT5 cables are manufactured to, ensures compatibility and performance despite cost. I suppose the more money you pay, the better people feel. And no one would sell a cable at exorbitant prices. It would just, not be right.....

Regards,

Shadders.

The real weak point for me in ethernet cables are the cheap rubbish rj connectors. I've ruined many of them. Also I've never abused power or speaker cable like I have CAT5.

Hi,

Yes - i have a laptop and the RJ45 socket failed after 3 months - brittle pins. I would have thought for hifi, it is plug in once and let it remain in place.

Regards,

Shadders.

Audiophiles fiddle with gear constantly. Plug in, unplug, swap, repeat. I've had several ethernet cables fail, not just the connectors.