Time to put all the CDs in storage. How to get CD quality sound digitally?

[p_m_brown]

Hey all,

So that dreaded time has come where we are simply running out of space to store our cd collection and need your help with digital storage.

First of all, please forgive my ignorance, the most dabbling i have done with digital music is to download the odd tune from iTunes!

I have a new mac and was wondering if I can use this as a means of ripping/storing all the CDs. Then I suppose I will need a streamer of some description to convert the files in to analogue to act as the source. Would this sound as good as my CDP playing actual CDs?

Or, are there any products out there that can rip CDs with that doubles up as a storage device?

Your thoughts/advice gratefully received!

:cheers:

 

[Craig M.]

Is the mac close enough to the rest of your kit to be physically connected via usb/optical, or are you looking at streaming via wifi/airplay?

If it's close, all you need is a dac to go between mac and amp, if not then I'd consider trying to find a squeezebox touch and using its analogue outs or an airport express which you could connect to a dac and stream via airplay. The mac will be fine for ripping and storing your music on, just use iTunes and rip to apple lossless (alac), you can then either use the mac directly to select and play tracks/albums or you can get a remote app for your phone/ipod touch/ipad and control via that. Airplay is very flexible, if your mac has mountain lion installed you could also use it to stream things like spotify to your system. I have the best of both worlds with my setup which has my music library on the mac and the nas, I can use airplay to stream from itunes/spotify/whatever from my macbook, or I can play direct from my nas into my dac using Synologys music player controlled via a phone app, which means the mac doesn't have to be on. There are lots of ways of doing what you want, I'd say airplay is one of the most flexible and simple but you need to have a decent wifi signal in your room.

 

[p_m_brown]

Hey Craig,

Thanks for this info. AirPlay sounds like a simple solution but I want to at least match my current CDP quality.

So I am hoping to only use the macbook for ripping at the highest quality possible. The NAS thing sounds like a good idea for storage and for selecting the music - your solution would not require an interface, only a dac which of course could be used for other sources I guess.

Is your nas kit wired or wireless? Also, what if anything would a streamer add?

Appreciate you help!

 

[Overdose]

A streamer would add nothing over the Mac.

A streamer is just a basic computer, usually with an internal DAC, sometimes with internal storage.

If you rip from 192 Kbps AAC files right up to ALAC, I doubt you'll hear much, if any difference in sound quality. If you are space limited, use the lowest bit rate that is indistinguishable from lossless, if you have plenty of storage space, rip to lossless (ALAC).

A DAC may or may not give a noticeable change in sound, your choices here would be dependent on what sources you wished to use and how flexible a system you wanted, ie how you want to store, access and play your music.

 

[p_m_brown]

Great, thanks Overdose.

Looks like these streamers are big business so perhaps my money is best spent on a NAS and a decent DAC!

BTW, I have a few bits in my iTunes library already in apple lossless but the Kbps rates seem to fluctuate. Is this normal or am I missing something here?

 

[Overdose]

Great, thanks Overdose.

Looks like these streamers are big business so perhaps my money is best spent on a NAS and a decent DAC!

BTW, I have a few bits in my iTunes library already in apple lossless but the Kbps rates seem to fluctuate. Is this normal or am I missing something here?

Firstly, a NAS is good if you want to be able to access it all over the house and maybe by several people at once. Some NAS devices also have music player capability and you will certainly need that if using it with iTunes, as iTunes needs to be running on a device to actually play the music. You couldn't for example, just plug any old NAS into a DAC and play music.

If you don't need networking capability a plain old external hard drive would suffice if feeding a music player, either streamer or Mac.

The bit rate will always seem to fluctuate with lossless and VBR (variable bit rate) rips, as the compression will optimise the bit rate for the music, so a simple piece that involves lots of quiet sections, might seem to have a lower bit rate than a complicated one.

My default recommendation for DAC alone, would be something like the Epiphany E-DAC at around £90 (USB only though). More expensive DACs are available, but you don't pay for better sound quality, only extra features. The Epiphany DAC (like all good DACs), is transparent and should not colour the sound any.

What existing smart phones and computers do you have in your house by the way?

 

[p_m_brown]

Thanks again - this is invaluable info!

So at present, we have an old HP laptop that is pretty much dead, my new Macbook pro, newish iPad and a couple of Samsung Galaxy S3s.

What I am hoping to do is create the iTunes library from my Mac, then run it from the Nas (so I can add multiroom in the future) and also use it to back up my mac wirelessly rather than with the clunky Seagate backup drive I have right now. would that work?

Thanks for the shout on the dac. I thought I would have to pay more as I want to at least match the SQ of my Arcam CDP which from my basic digital knowledge, has a decent dac already?

The forum members/Mag seem to love the Rega Dac but I quite like the look of the Audiolab M Dac...Of course, I am more than happy to save a wedge of cash if all dacs are essentially equal in SQ.

 

[Craig M.]

Hey Craig,

Thanks for this info. AirPlay sounds like a simple solution but I want to at least match my current CDP quality.

So I am hoping to only use the macbook for ripping at the highest quality possible. The NAS thing sounds like a good idea for storage and for selecting the music - your solution would not require an interface, only a dac which of course could be used for other sources I guess.

Is your nas kit wired or wireless? Also, what if anything would a streamer add?

Appreciate you help!

My nas is wired to the router, which is in turn wired to the ATV. The ATV connects to the DAC via optical, but I could go straight from the nas to the DAC if I wanted via USB. It is possible to get wifi enabled nas drives, but I have no experience of them. You could also consider feeding a Sonos unit from a nas, the Sonos is usually used with a DAC for best quality, I've no experience of Sonos but owners seem very happy.

I have limited knowledge of streamers from the HiFi companies, but most seem to basically incorporate the streaming part and DAC into one box. The ones I've tried were a bit clunky when it came to the user interface. I don't think the HiFi companies can offer anything extra when it comes to the act of streaming, it's just shifting network traffic about, the DAC is where the action is and I agree with Overdose that spending big bucks doesn't necessarily get you extra performance over a budget offering.

HERE is a little information about the Synology music software. Synology also have a forum for users of Audio Station HERE. The other benefit of my nas is it can be used for Time Machine backups from my (and my g/f's) Mac. Someone posted on another thread that not all USB DACs will work with the USB on Synology nas's, so that's something to bare in mind should you go that route.

 

[Craig M.]

Thanks again - this is invaluable info!

So at present, we have an old HP laptop that is pretty much dead, my new Macbook pro, newish iPad and a couple of Samsung Galaxy S3s.

What I am hoping to do is create the iTunes library from my Mac, then run it from the Nas (so I can add multiroom in the future) and also use it to back up my mac wirelessly rather than with the clunky Seagate backup drive I have right now. would that work?

Thanks for the shout on the dac. I thought I would have to pay more as I want to at least match the SQ of my Arcam CDP which from my basic digital knowledge, has a decent dac already?

The forum members/Mag seem to love the Rega Dac but I quite like the look of the Audiolab M Dac...Of course, I am more than happy to save a wedge of cash if all dacs are essentially equal in SQ.

iTunes will only work if your Mac is running, even though the library is stored on the nas. That's why I use the Audio Station software on the nas, the Mac isn't part of it and can be left closed. You can get a remote app for it for your iPad and S3s. And yes, as I said in my last post, you can do wireless Time Machine backups on Synology nas's (and I'm sure other brands).

 

[CnoEvil]

Depending on budget, you might like to try a Linn Sneaky DS.......which can be had for £750.

 

[p_m_brown]

@Craig.M Thanks again for this info - I will certainly check ou the NAS units that offer wifi - understand that wired sounds best so will do that for the hifi set up.

Wireless would be useful for general back up duties. The music player interface you mentioned, does that come as part of your NAS?

@CnoEvil - isn't the Linn unit a streamer? if so, what would the advantage over a stand alone dac be?

Guys, your input is most appreciated! :cheers:

 

[Craig M.]

@Craig.M Thanks again for this info - I will certainly check ou the NAS units that offer wifi - understand that wired sounds best so will do that for the hifi set up.

Wireless would be useful for general back up duties. The music player interface you mentioned, does that come as part of your NAS?

I'd say the advantage wired offers over wifi is stability, nothing to do with sound quality as such, but you have the potential for drop outs with wifi. The benefit a wifi enabled nas offers is that it doesn't need to be wired to your router to become part of the network.

The Audio Station is a free download that is available from within the nas's 'Package Centre', it's basically a hub within the nas that offers certain software to allow the nas to accomplish certain tasks. Info HERE. It's all very easy to setup. The remote app for your phone/iPad is a free download from the Android/Apple app store. All the info I've provided is valid for my Synology nas, I've no idea what other brands offer.

 

[MajorFubar]

clunky Seagate backup drive I have right now

If you're otherwise happy with your Seagate backup drive, you can save a whole wad of money by buying a USB-NAS adaptor. A USB-NAS adaptor will allow you to plug your USB drive into a LAN port on your router so it can be shared across your network, wireless or otherwise. There's various models available, some as cheap as £20. Naturally you don't get RAID-style data-protection and the cheapest ones aren't gigabit, but none the less, I mention it because it's an option you may not have known about.

It's likely I'll be heading that route myself because I can't justify the cost of a 'true' 2TB NAS when a 2TB USB HDD and a NAS adaptor can be had for about £90 all-in if you shop around.

 

[Overdose]

Thanks again - this is invaluable info!

So at present, we have an old HP laptop that is pretty much dead, my new Macbook pro, newish iPad and a couple of Samsung Galaxy S3s.

Have you considered using the old laptop as a music server?

Remove everything apart from basic software such as antivirus and iTunes and use it for all media streaming. You would only need to add a DAC and the S3s and the Mac and iPad would all be able to control the iTunes session on the laptop. All files could be stored locally.

That would get you going until you got a NAS. I used to use a netbok for this purpose, but I used a Linux operating system (Mint) and XBMC as the media server, controlled via an iPad.

You could also possibly set up a screen share via you Mac, although Pc to Mac connections are not as easy as Mac to Mac.

Lots of options and no need for large expense. The M-DAC and the like are nice, but probably only worth the investment if you need the connectivity. Cyp Audio have also just brought out a nice unit that has HDMI connectivity, so look around at the competition if you do want to splash some cash.

 

[Dave_]

clunky Seagate backup drive I have right now

If you're otherwise happy with your Seagate backup drive, you can save a whole wad of money by buying a USB-NAS adaptor. A USB-NAS adaptor will allow you to plug your USB drive into a LAN port on your router so it can be shared across your network, wireless or otherwise. There's various models available, some as cheap as £20. Naturally you don't get RAID-style data-protection and the cheapest ones aren't gigabit, but none the less, I mention it because it's an option you may not have known about. It's likely I'll be heading that route myself because I can't justify the cost of a 'true' 2TB NAS when a 2TB USB HDD and a NAS adaptor can be had for about £90 all-in if you shop around.

Some routers also have USB and can be set up as print, FTP or media servers.

 

[MajorFubar]

Some routers also have USB and can be set up as print, FTP or media servers.

I was going to do that, then I found out that the USB socket on my Netgear DGN2200 is too slow for streaming lossless audio at a fast enough rate. Not sure if that's a problem typical of them all. I only bought it 2011 so it's not like it's ancient.

 

[p_m_brown]

Hi all,

Very interesting - so I like the idea of utilising one of the seagate drives I have (as it is pretty much brand new). Could I plug this into an AirPort Extreme (my home hub 3 is rubbish with wifi speed anyhow) and then connect this to a dac via an Apple TV?

Getting closer!

 

[Craig M.]

How would you select and control your music? The Seagate drive can't run its own software, and the AE isn't a media server as far as I can tell. The difference between a nas and sharing a HDD plugged into your router, is the nas actually has a processor and ram - it's in essence a computer. Plugging a HDD into a router with media server capabilities would require you to use a streamer with UPnP/DNLA file access. I think the Linn streamers use UPnP, but have no idea if they could work with a HDD plugged into a media server router. Someone correct me if I have any of the above wrong?

While it's in my mind, there is one problem with playing music from a Synology nas - Audio Station doesn't support gapless playback as yet. So you will get a 2 second gap between tracks whether you want it or not.

 

[p_m_brown]

Right, ok. A previous poster on this thread mentioned I could pop an existing hdd onto a router - I like apple stuff as it fairly easy to set up so checked out the AirplayExpress which offers the broadcast of usb attached hdd (at least I think I read that).

would an Apple TV wireless device not run iTunes if the folder it pointed to was the one over the wifi or of course if wired?

 

[CnoEvil]

@CnoEvil - isn't the Linn unit a streamer? if so, what would the advantage over a stand alone dac be?

Yes, the Linn is a streamer.

I believe that the advantages of bringing everything into one box gives better control over the whole thing, provided it's well designed (eg. Power supply, clocking, jitter, upsampling, filtering etc)

Don't take my word for it, but go and listen to the Streamers that are out there....and compare with the dac option. There is little agreement in hifi, except that it is better to demo as much as possible.

 

[p_m_brown]

Ok thanks.

Would that be able to store/run iTunes?

Reason I ask is that I don't want my mac in the lounge, hooked up to the amp etc.

Are there any options to run iTunes on a streamer or NAS?

 

[Craig M.]

would an Apple TV wireless device not run iTunes if the folder it pointed to was the one over the wifi or of course if wired?

If I understand what you want the ATV to do, then no. You'd need iTunes to be running on a computer regardless of where the music files are actually located. The Apple TV can receive an Airplay signal, stream over the net from iTunes match, or pull files from a computer running iTunes. But it can't act as an iTunes player on its own. That's why I like the combo of my nas and the ATV so much, I get airplay and other things through the ATV but the nas with the Audio Station software also allows me to leave the Mac and iTunes out of the equation and connect direct to the ATV. The other benefit of the ATV is it means you can connect to the dac via optical which gives you more choice than USB alone. Hopefully I've explained that ok, as it seems really complex reading it back! :doh:

 

[CnoEvil]

Ok thanks.

Would that be able to store/run iTunes?

Reason I ask is that I don't want my mac in the lounge, hooked up to the amp etc.

Are there any options to run iTunes on a streamer or NAS?

I'm not the right person to ask about iTunes and DS (computer hopeless)...maybe Alex / Neuphonix or others may be of more help. Try asking on my Linn DS thread, or better still on the Linn forum.

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/the-linn-ds-dsm-thread

 

[Craig M.]

Are there any options to run iTunes on a streamer or NAS?

Sadly, no. However, you can rip your cds with iTunes and have the library stored on the nas, and then use something other than iTunes to play the files. That is what happens in my case, and I'm sure some if not most streamers could read the iTunes files. But it wouldn't be iTunes playing them, so you'd lose the familiar interface. You're going to have to use something other than iTunes to play the files if you want to leave the Mac out of the playback equation.

 

[p_m_brown]

Right, ok Craig M. thanks again!

So if I have this right, your set up is pulling apple lossless straight from your Nas and the music interface which will make sense of those files can be controlled by an app via iPad or iPhone right?

Does that 2 second gap crop up when playing a full album? Not sure I fancy that tbh!