The almost forgotten turntable

[plastic penguin]

It’s not really a Marantz Tonearm. It’s a Clearaudio Satisfy arm. A friend has the gyro with a rega arm on and it does sound nice, but I think it would be a backwards (sideways) step from the tonearm I already have.

Satisfy Kardan Tonearm

A precise, magnetic antiskating adjustment with a gentle sensitiveness, without mechanic disturbance - for pure music. Become a witness of revolutionary direct wiring, where the signal travels uninterrupted from the cartridge to the Phono-preamplifier. Only a few amongst the best offer this...

www.hifisound.co.uk

The point I'm trying to make is demo a Gyro with a basic Rega arm, you may not need to go to the expense of a Satisfy arm.

 

[bigfish786]

The point I'm trying to make is demo a Gyro with a basic Rega arm, you may not need to go to the expense of a Satisfy arm.

But, I’ve already got the Satisfy arm. The Rega would be an added cost.
If I decided to sell the Marantz, then yes, another arm would have to be factored in.
All theoretical at the moment, and not a priority.
I’ve used the turntable again today for a couple of hours, music sounds great, but the flaws of vinyl are still ever present. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the turntable I have to be honest, but the pops, clicks, scratches etc are becoming less tolerable. And that’s probably a personal thing.

 

[plastic penguin]

But, I’ve already got the Satisfy arm. The Rega would be an added cost.
If I decided to sell the Marantz, then yes, another arm would have to be factored in.
All theoretical at the moment, and not a priority.
I’ve used the turntable again today for a couple of hours, music sounds great, but the flaws of vinyl are still ever present. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with the turntable I have to be honest, but the pops, clicks, scratches etc are becoming less tolerable. And that’s probably a personal thing.

Perhaps then just stick to your CDP. No matter how good a turntable the pops and frying bacon will still remain.

What size is the Satisfy arm? Just because it's a good arm doesn't mean it'll be compatible with a Gyrodec.

 

[bigfish786]

Got a nice surprise today. Delivery of an album from Juno. You have got to love Sunday deliveries 😊.
Anyway, it’s an album by Ghost, called Meliora and has an EP included.
So, I’ve popped it on the turntable this evening and it sounds great. Freshly opened vinyl is probably as good as it gets. Wish all my albums sounded like this…. And lasted an hour per side🤣🤣

 

[record_spot]

CD is the lazy format and very convenient but also vey Harsh if that is the right expression ,Vinyl is mush more laid back and softer sounding.I am looking at upgrading my turntable too a Technics .
I find some sound better on CD & others on Vinyl !

If it makes you happy then turn it up 👍

I don't think the "CD is harsh" line stacks up too much. Maybe it depends on the type of music you listen to as some CDs were badly produced/mastered, but when done well (most of the time, IMO) then it's a terrific format. Not been with us for over 40 years for nothing!

 

[Rodolfo]

I think @Gray is clouding the thread a little, as there's a big difference between kit satisfaction and improving a system. Like you I am totally satisfied with my bundles. I would never want to change any of my stuff, even though I'm perfectly aware they all can be improved on.

PRECISELY, with all due respect to our host and manufacturers and reviewers and followers and the faithful generally.

 

[nopiano]

Got a nice surprise today. Delivery of an album from Juno. You have got to love Sunday deliveries 😊.
Anyway, it’s an album by Ghost, called Meliora and has an EP included.
So, I’ve popped it on the turntable this evening and it sounds great. Freshly opened vinyl is probably as good as it gets. Wish all my albums sounded like this…. And lasted an hour per side🤣🤣

An hour, on an LP side?! That sounds like a world record, at least at 33rpm.

 

[Gray]

PRECISELY, with all due respect to our host and manufacturers and reviewers and followers and the faithful generally.

It was suggested that doubling the price of the turntable in question would bring about a sound closer to a good CD player.

The point I made (the one deemed to be 'clouding the thread' 🙂) was that I have heard the TT in question sounding indistinguishable from a decent CD player - with none of the 'warmth' or 'softness' often attributed to vinyl.

I said that I was 'not so sure' a doubling in price would be such a vast improvement.

Well, I am sure that any audible difference would, at the very least, be a case of severely diminishing returns.
And I stick by that opinion - especially if genuinely blind testing was involved 👍

 

[bigfish786]

An hour, on an LP side?! That sounds like a world record, at least at 33rpm.

I wish my records played for an hour a side. It would be nice. Think these days it’s nice to get 6 tracks on one side 😊 so you can sit still for 20 mins or so.
The few 45rpm 12” I have are over before I’ve got comfy.

 

[DougK1]

It was suggested that doubling the price of the turntable in question would bring about a sound closer to a good CD player.

The point I made (the one deemed to be 'clouding the thread' 🙂) was that I have heard the TT in question sounding indistinguishable from a decent CD player - with none of the 'warmth' or 'softness' often attributed to vinyl.

I said that I was 'not so sure' a doubling in price would be such a vast improvement.

Well, I am sure that any audible difference would, at the very least, be a case of severely diminishing returns.
And I stick by that opinion - especially if genuinely blind testing was involved 👍

PRECISELY

 

[plastic penguin]

It was suggested that doubling the price of the turntable in question would bring about a sound closer to a good CD player.

The point I made (the one deemed to be 'clouding the thread' 🙂) was that I have heard the TT in question sounding indistinguishable from a decent CD player - with none of the 'warmth' or 'softness' often attributed to vinyl.

I said that I was 'not so sure' a doubling in price would be such a vast improvement.

Well, I am sure that any audible difference would, at the very least, be a case of severely diminishing returns.
And I stick by that opinion - especially if genuinely blind testing was involved 👍

My suggestion to bigfish was to up the budget on a turntable (just with a basic arm to start with) and see how that stacks up to a rebadged Clearaudio, and model Clearaudio took out of production years ago. No doubt @DougK1 table is very competent and will continue to give joy for years to come.

But the way you've spoken about is it's the best thing since sliced bread. All hi-fi components can be bettered (yes, even the Leema). Whether @bigfish786 feels the uplift is big enough to justify the premium price will be down to his ears and his ears alone.

 

[nopiano]

I wish my records played for an hour a side. It would be nice. Think these days it’s nice to get 6 tracks on one side 😊 so you can sit still for 20 mins or so.
The few 45rpm 12” I have are over before I’ve got comfy.

Yes, I think I misread your original post! I thought you were stating it was an hour per side, when that was your wish! 🙃

 

[Gray]

My suggestion to bigfish was to up the budget on a turntable (just with a basic arm to start with) and see how that stacks up to a rebadged Clearaudio, and model Clearaudio took out of production years ago. No doubt @DougK1 table is very competent and will continue to give joy for years to come.

But the way you've spoken about is it's the best thing since sliced bread. All hi-fi components can be bettered (yes, even the Leema). Whether @bigfish786 feels the uplift is big enough to justify the premium price will be down to his ears and his ears alone.

No, not the best thing since sliced bread but all I'm saying is this:
If it already sounds indistinguishable to a decent CDP (and most, if not all, people would think so).....how much better is it going to get?
(Certainly not enough to justify double its price).

I don't say this because I'm a cheapskate, but because I've done some genuinely blind testing of cartridges and phono stages at vastly different prices - with results that were not as their price differences would suggest.

Maybe blind testing of arms would reveal worthwhile differences, but personally I doubt it.

 

[DougK1]

No, not the best thing since sliced bread but all I'm saying is this:
If it already sounds indistinguishable to a decent CDP (and most, if not all, people would think so).....how much better is it going to get?
(Certainly not enough to justify double its price).

I don't say this because I'm a cheapskate, but because I've done some genuinely blind testing of cartridges and phono stages at vastly different prices - with results that were not as their price differences would suggest.

Maybe blind testing of arms would reveal worthwhile differences, but personally I doubt it.

And I'll back this up by stating I've been party to some of these blind tests and the results were truly surprising to say the least

 

[My2Cents]

Not wrong.
Sorry, but lending is not covered by any 'fair use' clause.

Fair use can be applied to the purchaser.
I was talking specifically about lending.
From the earliest vinyl, through CDs there has always been the copyright warning that precludes 'unathorised lending'.
And they don't mean the lender can authorise the lending 🙂.

Of course, it's one of the most broken laws that there has ever been.....even if you don't do it 😉

There are 3 core rights granted to the copyright holder. One of them is 'the right of distribution'.
It establishes the right to distribute copies or phonorecords of a copyrighted
work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending.
The intent of this law is not to stop people from lending purchased copyrighted work to a friend or family member.
It is intended to prevent us from lending purchased copyrighted work to the 'public'.
e.g: you 'lend' one of your CD's to your friend who is the landlord of your local pub and he/she plays it on their jukebox while the premises are open to the public. This would be in violation of the law.

The purchaser of the copyrighted material is allowed to make a reasonable number of copies of the copyrighted material for their own use (but NOT for distribution to the public).

Lending material to a friend (which is legal) who then makes a copy for themselves (for their own personal use) is technically a violation of the copyright laws, but it's a somewhat grey area. The copyright holder may want to prosecute but would have to go before a judge who would make the decision based on the circumstances.

Here's another example:
You purchase a piece of sheet music and then lend it to a friend who then makes a photocopy of it for their own use before they return it to you. It could be a grey area but you may not be aware that they made a copy and so no judge could really prosecute.
However, if this friend is say, a school teacher, who makes 50 copies and takes it to his/her school and distributes it to the school orchestra to play, that would be in violation of the law.

 

[bigfish786]

Been thinking of trying a ML stylus in the cart, I’m happy with the Shibata in there but would like to hear what different flavour the ML might bring.

 

[plastic penguin]

No, not the best thing since sliced bread but all I'm saying is this:
If it already sounds indistinguishable to a decent CDP (and most, if not all, people would think so).....how much better is it going to get?
(Certainly not enough to justify double its price).

I don't say this because I'm a cheapskate, but because I've done some genuinely blind testing of cartridges and phono stages at vastly different prices - with results that were not as their price differences would suggest.

Maybe blind testing of arms would reveal worthwhile differences, but personally I doubt it.

Did you compare the Marantz turntable with a Gyrodec?

 

[plastic penguin]

And I'll back this up by stating I've been party to some of these blind tests and the results were truly surprising to say the least

The only blind test you mentioned was different cartridges, unless I'm very much mistaken.

 

[DougK1]

The only blind test you mentioned was different cartridges, unless I'm very much mistaken.

Of those that stick in my mind cartridges and phono stages. I think Gray may have conducted more which I was not party to. Oh, and hi-res vs CD.

 

[My2Cents]

I played a couple of early Iron Maiden albums first, which didn’t sound all that well recorded. Moved on to Powerslave and that sounds amazing in comparison. (Think this is a remaster)

With all due respect, vinyl is perhaps the worst media to be listening to rock/metal on.
To cut the vinyl masters a ton of eq had to be applied before the master tape signal went to the cutting head.

On most LP's bass heavy tracks are usually avoided on the inner tracks of an LP (that area of an LP is usually reserved for ballads and tracks with less bass). But this is often not possible with metal.
The grooves have to get wider and wider to accommodate the bass (which reduces playback time to around 15 minutes or less per side) but they often wanted longer sides and so the sound was severely compromised during mastering.
To this end, the overall 'level' of the track was also reduced to prevent the needle from skipping out of the groove and to prevent the master cutting needle from crashing into the adjacent grooves.

This is one reason why a lot of Maiden (and similar metal albums) actually sound thin and flat. Then they sometimes used these same reduced bass/reduced level masters to make CD's (because often the original master tapes were no longer available and/or they were on a budget).
When they started to create digital streaming files things often got even worse! Sometimes they just played the best LP copy that they could find and recorded it digitally.

 

[Gray]

Did you compare the Marantz turntable with a Gyrodec?

No, but again how much better than 'indistinguishable from a decent CDP' might a Gyrodec (or any other turntable) be?

 

[Gray]

Lending material to a friend (which is legal) who then makes a copy for themselves (for their own personal use) is technically a violation of the copyright laws, but it's a somewhat grey area.

Your example there is more than a 'technical' violation.
And the only grey area with it is that, for obvious practical reasons, that part of copyright law is not enforced.

How many people haven't borrowed and copied copyrighted material?

 

[plastic penguin]

No, but again how much better than 'indistinguishable from a decent CDP' might a Gyrodec (or any other turntable) be?

No idea without comparing one.

 

[bigfish786]

I’ve had the pleasure of listening to a friends Gyro SE and it’s a lovely bit of kit. It’s also a fantastic bit of engineering which is a delight to see working.
I’ve not compared it with my TT15 side by side, but I don’t think there was much between them. Different engineering but both are high quality products. I just think the TT15 was a bit of a bargain for the price I paid over a decade ago.

 

[DougK1]

Different engineering but both are high quality products. I just think the TT15 was a bit of a bargain for the price I paid over a decade ago.

It's you I have to thank for pointing me in the direction of the TT15 at the same bargain price