The VALVE AMP thread

[lindsayt]

Detailed 7 page tecnical Valve Amp Info (see little forward arrows at the bottom of each page):

http://education.lenardaudio.com/en/14_valve_amps.html

That article include the following quote from Rod Elliot:

"I describe the SET amp as an "effects unit" rather than a hi-fi amplifier, since it fails to meet even the most generous definition of hi-fi in all significant respects."

This is the sort of nonsense trotted out by arch objectivists or people that don't really understand or have full experience of SET's.

If you drive a SET amplifier into clipping it will sound like an effects unit. Well dur!

If you have speakers that rely on high damping factors from the amplifier to avoid sounding underdamped in the bass then SET's will sound like effects units for bass drums and bass guitars etc.

If on the other hand you avoid clipping by matching desired volume and listening distance to speaker efficiency and amplifier power.

And if the speakers do not require high damping to be in the right ballpark for total system damping - eg by having the bass drivers in a sealed box / horned cabinett where the air provides the right amount of damping.

Then in those circumstances it's solid state amplifiers and push pull amplifiers that will tend to sound like effects boxes.

That's why SET amplifiers have won a number of bake-offs that I've attended. Making push pulls sound like they're passing the signal through a big wad of cotton wool and the solid state amplifiers sound synthetic, especially on vocals (very very mild Dalek effect) and lacking in the last bit of detail resolution.

Having said that, the difference between a good SET amp and a good solid state amp is not huge with valve friendly speakers.

 

[Macspur]

I've only ever listened to two valve amps - the Japanese Audio Note which is sold under the Kondo brand name and Leben. The Kondo was paired with ProAc speakers (the D48 and K6) and the Leben with Audio Note speakers (the UK brand).

In both cases the sound was fabulous - very realistic and enjoyable. Makes me wonder why I'm still sticking to transistors....

My apologies however, for being unable to offer any technical knowledge on the subject as I know nothing about how tubes work.

When I had an urge to try valves, Leben was the brand I found myself attracted to... aparrently their SC600 paired with Harbeth SHL5+ is supposed to be heaven.

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

 

[Al ears]

You can add Consonance to hybrids. Nearly bought one, that was when I went with Densen. Still wonder what would've happened if I did.

You could, in theory , also add the Tom EVans Audio Design stuff as all his Preamps are solid-state.

 

[Infiniteloop]

I've only ever listened to two valve amps - the Japanese Audio Note which is sold under the Kondo brand name and Leben. The Kondo was paired with ProAc speakers (the D48 and K6) and the Leben with Audio Note speakers (the UK brand).

In both cases the sound was fabulous - very realistic and enjoyable. Makes me wonder why I'm still sticking to transistors....

My apologies however, for being unable to offer any technical knowledge on the subject as I know nothing about how tubes work.

ProaAc speakers work very well with Valves. It’s not so much the sensitivity but how easy a speaker is to drive that makes for a good combination. I use Focals and Sonus Faber for example.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Mullard; GEC; AEG; Tung-Sol; Siemans; Gold Lyon

Advice from Prima Luna: http://www.audiotubes.com

 

[CnoEvil]

That article include the following quote from Rod Elliot:

"I describe the SET amp as an "effects unit" rather than a hi-fi amplifier, since it fails to meet even the most generous definition of hi-fi in all significant respects."

This is the sort of nonsense trotted out by arch objectivists or people that don't really understand or have full experience of SET's.

If you drive a SET amplifier into clipping it will sound like an effects unit. Well dur!

If you have speakers that rely on high damping factors from the amplifier to avoid sounding underdamped in the bass then SET's will sound like effects units for bass drums and bass guitars etc.

If on the other hand you avoid clipping by matching desired volume and listening distance to speaker efficiency and amplifier power.

And if the speakers do not require high damping to be in the right ballpark for total system damping - eg by having the bass drivers in a sealed box / horned cabinett where the air provides the right amount of damping.

Then in those circumstances it's solid state amplifiers and push pull amplifiers that will tend to sound like effects boxes.

That's why SET amplifiers have won a number of bake-offs that I've attended. Making push pulls sound like they're passing the signal through a big wad of cotton wool and the solid state amplifiers sound synthetic, especially on vocals (very very mild Dalek effect) and lacking in the last bit of detail resolution.

Having said that, the difference between a good SET amp and a good solid state amp is not huge with valve friendly speakers.

I agree.

I just included the link, as I hoped that the factual background and technical descriptions were correct. I am going through a steep learning curve. I'm a "switch it on and see if I like it", kind of guy.....but there are more technical types who it may help.

 

[CnoEvil]

Just found this interesting little buying guide:

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

Thx Mac

It's good to see I have listed most of the brands.

I deliberately left out Peachtree, as I don't think they use a Valve any more; and the Fatman is not really a serious Valve amp.

 

[CnoEvil]

Artephonos Energa; Audio Note; Audio Research; Ayon; Audion; Auris

Balanced Audio Technology;

Cary Audio Design; Cayin; Conrad Johnson; Copland

Dared

EAR/Yoshino;

Graaf;

Jadis; JoLida

Icon Audio;

Lamm; Leben; Luxman

Manly Labs; Mastersound; McIntosh; Ming Da

Nagra;

Prima Luna; Pure Sound;

Quad;

Rogue Audio

Synthesis

Tom Evans Audio Design

Unison Research;

Vincent; VTL

Yaquin Audio

Please feel free to add brands that I've missed.

 

[CnoEvil]

Aesthetix

Audio Analogue

AVM

Consonance

Croft

McIntosh

Musical Fidelity Nu Vista

Octave

Pathos

Synthesis Roma (Valve/Class D)

Unison Research Unico

Vincent

 

[Al ears]

Mullard; GEC; AEG; Tung-Sol; Siemans; Gold Lyon

Advice from Prima Luna: http://www.audiotubes.com

Old stock tubes come with the normal warnings. You can pay your money and take your chances but age and storage of these can be variable. Personally I'd stick with newly produced tested and matched valves.

 

[CnoEvil]

MYTHS

- All Valve amps sound syrupy and undynamic - I'm highlighting this, as it is one of the biggest myths out there

- They are a ***** to own

- They are not worth hearing, due to the higher distortion figures - but it is distortion more comfortable to the human ear.

DISADVANTAGES

- They Run Hot

- They use a bit more power

- Valves do need replaced...Power Amp ones more often than Pre. They can be expensive, but not necessarily so.

- May need biasing, if not done automatically.

- They stand or fall by their power supply...which is why good ones cost a bit.

- Speaker matching is more important, as they don't like plummeting Impedance.

- Bass is often not as tightly controlled as with a Solid State amp

- They are often more suited to certain types of music.than others

ADVANTAGES

- If you play to their strengths, they simply make music sound wonderful...so wonderful, that all the disadvantages melt away.

- You can tailor the sound with Tube Rolling.

- They all have different sound signatures, just like SS amps

- They sound incredibly dynamic, provided you get one with a decent power supply.

- The only way to get the true sound of a Valve Amp, is to get a Valve Amp....try one and see what you've been missing all these years.

Who should try them?

- IMO. Everybody; as there is such a wide variety of sound signatures. They should be ruled out as an option only after a demo, just like anything else.

- Anyone who values the midrange above all; needs a sweeter treble and a dynamic but engaging presentation.

- People who find current modern amps/speakers too aggresive

- Anyone whose listening diet is composed of a high percentage of Opera/Choral/Acoustic/String Concertos.

Halfway House.

- This is where the Hybrid Amp comes in. It combines the advantages of Valves in the Pre, along with the advantages of SS in the Power Amp (more power, tighter bass, drive difficult loads).

- The likes of Pathos (InPol2) combines Valve Pre with Class A SS

- Synthesis have models combing Valves with Class D (like Peachtree used to do...and had the ability to switch the Valve in, or out)

- IMO. It's for people who want to get a taste of the Valve sound, have hard to drive speakers and don't want to go the whole Valve hog.

 

[Al ears]

MYTHS

- All Valve amps sound syrupy and undynamic - I'm highlighting this, as it is one of the biggest myths out there

- They are a ***** to own

- They are not worth hearing, due to the higher distortion figures - but it is distortion more comfortable to the human ear.

DISADVANTAGES

- They Run Hot

- They use a bit more power

- Valves do need replaced...Power Amp ones more often than Pre. They can be expensive, but not necessarily so.

- May need biasing, if not done automatically.

- They stand or fall by their power supply...which is why good ones cost a bit.

- Speaker matching is more important, as they don't like plummeting Impedance.

- Bass is often not as tightly controlled as with a Solid State amp

- They are often more suited to certain types of music.than others

ADVANTAGES

- If you play to their strengths, they simply make music sound wonderful...so wonderful, that all the disadvantages melt away.

- You can tailor the sound with Tube Rolling.

- They all have different sound signatures, just like SS amps

- They sound incredibly dynamic, provided you get one with a decent power supply.

- The only way to get the true sound of a Valve Amp, is to get a Valve Amp....try one and see what you've been missing all these years.

Who should try them?

- IMO. Everybody; as there is such a wide variety of sound signatures. They should be ruled out as an option only after a demo, just like anything else.

- Anyone who values the midrange above all; needs a sweeter treble and a dynamic but engaging presentation.

- People who find current modern amps/speakers too aggresive

- Anyone whose listening diet is composed of a high percentage of Opera/Choral/Acoustic/String Concertos.

Halfway House.

- This is where the Hybrid Amp comes in. It combines the advantages of Valves in the Pre, along with the advantages of SS in the Power Amp (more power, tighter bass, drive difficult loads).

- The likes of Pathos (InPol2) combines Valve Pre with Class A SS

- IMO. It's for people who want to get a taste of the Valve sound, have hard to drive speakers and don't want to go the whole Valve hog.

It's a pity my 'Halfway House' is the other way around which indicates that not all generalisations are true. ;-)

The higher distortion figure bit does not always apply and I would also question their use for particular types of music, this surely comes from old valve amp users being into jazz and classical..... this is wrong.

The bit about speaker required has always been true, back in the very old days when there was nothing but valve amps the speaker manufacturers made speakers to suit and although choice is now limited to a small degree my amp will quite happily drive my Acoustic Zen Adagios which are relatively efficient but do not have massive impedance dips, perhaps you need to choose speakers more wisely but there is an adequate selection available for all types of room sizes.

 

[CnoEvil]

It's a pity my 'Halfway House' is the other way around which indicates that not all generalisations are true. ;-)

The higher distortion figure bit does not always apply.

Apologies - I should have catered for the Oddballs. *blum3*

 

[CnoEvil]

One of the reasons I went with TEAD equipment is was because it had none of the typical valve amp failings

....and this is why I started this thread.

The plan was to allow somebody new to Valves, to have some reference point...and more individual details can be gone into from there, if necessary.

IIRC. Everybody on here, who took the trouble to seriously try Valves for their system (rather than just being present at a demo), went ahead down that route.

As people have pointed out, the talk about Valves as an option, is spasmodic at best and spread all over the place...so I was trying to pull it all together in one place.

I'm probably not the best person to do it...but I had the will, time and inclination.

 

[Al ears]

It's a pity my 'Halfway House' is the other way around which indicates that not all generalisations are true. ;-)

The higher distortion figure bit does not always apply.

Apologies - I should have catered for the Oddballs. *blum3*

Hey, some of the best hifi out there is created by oddballs. ;-)

One of the reasons I went with TEAD equipment is was because it had none of the typical valve amp failings, apart perhaps from limited WPCs which is commonly overrated if you have a typical UK sized room and the right speakers. ;-)

Do I need a massive solid state with 300 wpc? Um, no.

 

[Al ears]

One of the reasons I went with TEAD equipment is was because it had none of the typical valve amp failings

....and this is why I started this thread.

The plan was to allow somebody new to Valves, to have some reference point...and more individual details can be gone into from there, if necessary.

IIRC. Everybody on here, who took the trouble to seriously try Valves for their system (rather than just being present at a demo), went ahead down that route.

As people have pointed out, the talk about Valves as an option, is spasmodic at best and spread all over the place...so I was trying to pull it all together in one place.

I'm probably not the best person to do it...but I had the will, time and inclination.

Most valiant of you sir and whilst I readily agree valves are not for everyone it is something they should try.

With the likes of Prima Luna and others offering auto calibration these days it isn't as difficult as it used to be. The idea that some components in your amp may need replacing in a few years time appears to be the crux.

People like fit and forget these days it would seem.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Mullard; GEC; AEG; Tung-Sol; Siemans; Gold Lyon

Advice from Prima Luna: http://www.audiotubes.com

Old stock tubes come with the normal warnings. You can pay your money and take your chances but age and storage of these can be variable. Personally I'd stick with newly produced tested and matched valves.

Yet properly tested NOS valves, to my ears, sound a lot better than most newer ones.

Siemens silver plates sound incredible.

RCA clear tops are punchy and detailed, whilst Mazda tubes give a lovely deep and tuneful bass.

Mullard and Brimar tubes are warm and beautiful with vocals, whilst Tung-Sol are lively and great for pop music.

Telefunken Tubes sound wonderfully realistic.

I have honestly never had any problems with NOS tubes, some of which are over 50 years old.

It would be a shame to miss out on the incredible variety and quality of sound these tubes give.

 

[Al ears]

Mullard; GEC; AEG; Tung-Sol; Siemans; Gold Lyon

Advice from Prima Luna: http://www.audiotubes.com

Old stock tubes come with the normal warnings. You can pay your money and take your chances but age and storage of these can be variable. Personally I'd stick with newly produced tested and matched valves.

Yet properly tested NOS valves, to my ears, sound a lot better than most newer ones.

Siemens silver plates sound incredible.

RCA clear tops are punchy and detailed, whilst Mazda tubes give a lovely deep and tuneful bass.

Mullard and Brimar tubes are warm and beautiful with vocals, whilst Tung-Sol are lively and great for pop music.

Telefunken Tubes sound wonderfully realistic.

I have honestly never had any problems with NOS tubes, some of which are over 50 years old.

It would be a shame to miss out on the incredible variety and quality of sound these tubes give.

Indeed. I wasn't implying you should avoid them simply be careful as to where you get them from.

 

[CnoEvil]

Yet properly tested NOS valves, to my ears, sound a lot better than most newer ones.

Siemens silver plates sound incredible.

RCA clear tops are punchy and detailed,

Mazda tubes give a lovely deep and tuneful bass.

Mullard and Brimar tubes are warm and beautiful with vocals, whilst Tung-Sol are lively and great for pop music.

Telefunken Tubes sound wonderfully realistic.

I have honestly never had any problems with NOS tubes, some of which are over 50 years old.

It would be a shame to miss out on the incredible variety and quality of sound these tubes give.

Brilliant stuff - and exactly what I was looking for in this thread.

If you have any more insight on how different Valves sound, feel free to add to your list...(and of course anyone else who has experience)

 

[lindsayt]

Most cost effective manufacturer is: You!

SET amps are as simple as amplifiers get. Simple circuits. Point to point wiring.

If DIY really isn't your cup of tea some other manufacturers of note:

Coincident. Their best sounding amplifier, the 300b Frankenstein, is not their most expensive. http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Amplifiers.html

At $6000 new, the Frankenstein is not cheap.

Longdog Audio. Bake-off winning amplifiers.

Tube Audio Labs. Makes Western Electric 300b and Korneff 45 clone amplifiers for reasonable prices.

The general view on the SET section of the Audio Asylum forum is that as SET's get lower in power they get better in sound quality - if you can avoid clipping. This becomes a big if for 1.8 watt amplifiers. Proper speaker matching required.

But then I personally prefer the sound of high efficiency speakers, even with 300 watt solid state amps.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Yet properly tested NOS valves, to my ears, sound a lot better than most newer ones.

Siemens silver plates sound incredible.

RCA clear tops are punchy and detailed,

Mazda tubes give a lovely deep and tuneful bass.

Mullard and Brimar tubes are warm and beautiful with vocals, whilst Tung-Sol are lively and great for pop music.

Telefunken Tubes sound wonderfully realistic.

I have honestly never had any problems with NOS tubes, some of which are over 50 years old.

It would be a shame to miss out on the incredible variety and quality of sound these tubes give.

Brilliant stuff - and exactly what I was looking for in this thread.

If you have any more insight on how different Valves sound, feel free to add to your list...(and of course anyone else who has experience)

I’m in London on business for a few days but will have a root through my collection of NOS tubes and add a few more to the list when I get back.

Most of my collection consists of 12AU7 preamp tubes but along with different manufacturers there are also electrically similar, but different variants of 12AU7’s, and again they sound different.

You can see why this gets addictive....

The amazing thing is that that even at 50 years old, these tubes still sound wonderful!

I’ve found that power tubes (845’s in my case) sound pretty much the same from whoever the manufacturer is, so I tend to stick with Shuguang who are still making them. I also stick with new ones as 845’s are a little bit scary.

When I was running KT88 power tubes in a previous amp, I did hear a difference when I used KT120’s (punchier and better bass) but not much else. It seems the magic happens in the preamp section.

 

[Rethep]

Valves? In this weather?

I'm in Ireland, where they greatly help! *biggrin*

I live in Holland where we have the hottest summer ever. Next week an expected heatwave. So (unfortunately) no music these times. Although i don't have a SET, tubes still cause heat. I'm longing for the fall.

 

[CnoEvil]

Valves? In this weather?

I'm in Ireland, where they greatly help! *biggrin*

I live in Holland where we have the hottest summer ever. Next week an expected heatwave. So (unfortunately) no music these times. Although i don't have a SET, tubes still cause heat. I'm longing for the fall.

As a Valve owner, is there anything you'd like to add....or even take issue with any of my info. I rely on you guys to keep me right on this.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Valves? In this weather?

I'm in Ireland, where they greatly help! *biggrin*

I live in Holland where we have the hottest summer ever. Next week an expected heatwave. So (unfortunately) no music these times. Although i don't have a SET, tubes still cause heat. I'm longing for the fall.

As a Valve owner, is there anything you'd like to add....or even take issue with any of my info. I rely on you guys to keep me right on this.

Its all excellent so far Cno...... and still going.

The only thing I might add is that there seems to be quite a lot of focus on reasons not to have a Valve Amp: heat, valve replacement, biasing, etc. Whilst these are real concerns, really these things are very minor and have no impact on day to day running. A good analogy might be a comparison with car tyres. You have to check the air pressures occasionally, and replace them. But on daily usage, you don’t even think about them.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Valves? In this weather?

I'm in Ireland, where they greatly help! *biggrin*

I live in Holland where we have the hottest summer ever. Next week an expected heatwave. So (unfortunately) no music these times. Although i don't have a SET, tubes still cause heat. I'm longing for the fall.

That wouldn’t put me off. If necessary I’d buy a desk fan and site it directly at the Amp.