The VALVE AMP thread

CnoEvil

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I apologize in advance if all my reference threads seems like overload...but when I'm on a mission, not even Mrs. Cno can stop me.

This thread is for all things Valve related....and will require a lot of input from people with much more experience than myself, which will almost certainly be owners....IL, Al ears, Lindsayt etc., I'm relying on you, so don't let me down.

The areas I would like to see covered:

1. Explanation of different types and the advantages/disadvantages of each: SET/Triode/Pentode/Ultra Linear

2. A good list of different brands and an idea of how they sound eg. I would put UR/Jadis at one end -> Icon Audio/Pure Sound in the middle -> VTL at the other (going from Warmer/Richer at one end -> Clean, Crisp and Neutral at the other).

3. Valves. An explanation of:

- Different types and how they effect the sound/power

- Different brands and what you'd expect to pay...and if paying more is worth it.

I'm now handing it over to you lot, to see what info you can give me....which I will then try to pull together...and put it in this first post so it's easy to find.

This is for my own education, as much as anything else.

Thx in advance.
 

lindsayt

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People like Nick Gorham AKA Lurcher300b AKA Longdog Audio have been designing and making great sounding valve amplifiers for years. I am happy to admit that I know nothing about the internals of valve amplifiers compared to enthusiasts like him.

When I asked him how he knows so much about them his reply was that he read a few text books and then got stuck in making his own.

Steve S (hosted Owston and has a Wolrd Class DIY'd system) said the same thing.
 

Vladimir

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Discuss. *crazy*

Yeah, I'm daft on the matter, but would love reading any shared experiences or even speculations. Was contemplating geting a DarkVoice 336SE for my cans but sanity got the better of me... for now...
 

Infiniteloop

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My experience is mainly with SET’s using KT88’s KT 120’s and latterly the slightly scarier 845 valves. For me the 845’s win hands down. Greater power, powerful and deep bass (although the transformers obviously have a lot to do with that) a beautiful, liquid midrange and highs that ‘ting’ rather than ‘ssshtingss’. The downside is the heat generated (considerable, given the current weather) and er, um, well really that’s it.

Tube rolling means you have some degree of being able to change the Amp’s character too, but I guess we’ll get into that later.
 

Infiniteloop

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Infiniteloop said:
My experience is mainly with SET’s using KT88’s, KT 120’s and latterly the slightly scarier 845 valves. For me the 845’s win hands down. Greater power, powerful and deep bass (although the transformers obviously have a lot to do with that) a beautiful, liquid midrange and highs that ‘ting’ rather than ‘ssshtingss’. The downside is the heat generated (considerable, given the current weather) and er, um, well really that’s it.

Tube rolling means you have some degree of being able to change the Amp’s character too, but I guess we’ll get into that later.
 

CnoEvil

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I am pilforing this info from the Web:

SET - single ended triode. A tube amp with only one output tube per channel that handles both the + and - sides of the waveform. Tend to be lower power but highly beloved by their followers. They make less power than push-pull. They also sacrifice bandwidth, in return get *extremely* low distortion at low power levels. Most push-pull designs have an audible *increase* in distortion at low power levels. Low power levels is where detail resides- SETs can be a lot more detailed. Their qualities can only be tapped by high efficiency speakers.

Push-Pull - has two output tubes per channel. One tube handles the + side of the waveform and the other handles the - side. Easy to get more power from than an SET.

Triode - the simplest amplification tube type. The cathode (filiment/heater) emits electrons to be picked up by the plate. A grid in the middle regulates the flow. The 3 elements = triode.

Pentode - five elements. A cathode, plate and 3 grids. Gives better control of the tube for certain conditions.

Tetrode - The Tetrode and Pentode have 4 elements that are externally assessable (Anode, Screen. Grid, Cathode). The extra screens described as suppressor screens and beam plates are internally connected and are not externally assessable. Variations of Tetrodes and Pentodes evolved as a means of getting around each others patents. A KT88 is a beam powered tetrode, whereas a 6CA7 (EL34) is a power pentode.

Ultralinear - a push-pull tube circuit that helps reduce certain types of distortion. It s an attempt to get a pair of pentodes to behave a little more like triodes, without sacrificing too much power- a compromise. If done right, it can be fairly successful, although no ultra-linear sounds like a triode amp.

Class A - a bit tough to describe simply, but the output circuit is always on. They are very linear but waste a lot of power so the design tends to be used for lower wattage amps. SET amps are Class A operation.

-----------------------------------------------------------

All of the above types of amps use output transformers. The output transformer can be bypassed with audibly and measureably increased performance including low level detail and extreme bandwidth. The sacrifice is the ability to drive low impedance loads, although bigger Output TransformerLess (OTL) amplifiers can drive some surprisingly low impedances! OTLs can be triode, tetrode or pentode and they can be class A to class B and anything in between.

Execution is important and can shoot down the best concept, or support the operation of the worst. All amplifiers are sensitive to load, so you always have to be careful. In general, all tube amps perform better on speakers that are 8 ohms or more, as opposed to 4 ohms, all other things being equal. But in the end you will probably have to compare different types of amps that you can afford to find what works for you and your speakers. Have fun! and keep asking questions.

A tube basically works by boiling off electrons from the cathode (-ve terminal) and accelerating the electrons to the anode (+ve terminal). The cathode may be indirectly heated (have a seperate heater element) or directly heated.

A DIODE is the simplest type of tube. The cathode and the anode are placed relatively close together so current can only flow in one direction.

In a TRIODE, the cathode and anode are placed further apart so no current will flow. A seperate grid, called a "control grid", is placed between the cathode and anode. A weak musical signal is fed to the control grid, which attracts electrons from the boiling cathode and accelerates it towards the anode. In this way, a small musical signal generates a larger current.

However, the amplification that triodes produce is not very much. So the TETRODE was invented. As the name implies, there are four grids. In addition to the three grids in the triode, the tetrode adds a "screen grid" between the control grid and the anode - making the configuration: cathode, control grid, screen grid, anode.

The screen grid is positively charged, and its effect is to accelerate even more electrons towards the anode thereby giving more amplification.

However, the electrons now have so much energy that some of them bounce off the anode, reducing overall efficiency and messing around with the musical system.

So the PENTODE was invented. In addition to the four grids in the tetrode, a pentode has a negatively charged "suppressor grid" between the screen grid and the anode - cathode, control grid, screen grid, suppressor grid, anode. The effect of the suppressor grid is to reduce the energy of the electrons bouncing off the anode, giving greater amplification and less wastage.

A Pentode can be made to function as a triode if you simply disconnect the screen and suppressor grids. Hence some Pentode based amps (like the Cary V-12R and Cary 120S) can be operated in triode or pentode mode.

Generally Triode amps sound more delicate and have more of that tube "bloom". Pentode amps are more powerful and sound more "solid state" than triodes. Of course, not all amps are like this.
 
Alas my only experience with valve amps is the Tom Evans Audio Linear A and B power amps and a mates Icon Audio.

Tom Evans only uses valves in the power amps he produces and these have very, very low distortion figures.

The Linear A stereo power and the Linear B monoblocks are designed quite differently.

The Linear A is a hybrid, single ended, Class A, ultra-linear stereo amp with a power rating of 25WPC. Four EL84 tubes per side, in parallel, create a composite tube with characteristics almost identical to the legendary Japanese No.10 tube.

The Tom Evans Linear B monoblock amps differ significantly in design from the Linear A stereo amp. The Linear B is not simply a monoblock iteration of the Linear A, but is a new breed of power amplifier.

The Linear B uses Differential Global Feedback, a world first. As a 55 watt mono amplifier, the Linear B is able to produce 150 decibels of dynamic range. The output transformers have been designed to produce real power into loudspeaker impedances of 3 ohms and above.

That's just a bit of blurb but the monoblocks were a tad too expensive for me.
 

CnoEvil

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insider9 said:
How many members here have used a valve amp before? I know Al Ears and Infiniteloop both use them but do't think anyone else does.

Rethep does.

Floyd Droid had a great Icon Audio set up....and I miss his input, as he hasn't walked these halls in a while.

Acalex had a Jadis - I also miss his enthusiasm

Shafesk had a Cayin

Hoops on toast probably had one...but doesn't post here now. His input would have been valuable

I also helped someone, who ended up with a Vincent valve amp...but I can't remember his name (found it - he was LevK83 and it was back in 2011)

Lindsay I think has an SET amp.

It would be good if anyone else would make themselves known.
 
CnoEvil said:
insider9 said:
How many members here have used a valve amp before? I know Al Ears and Infiniteloop both use them but do't think anyone else does.

Rethep does.

Floyd Droid had a great Icon Audio set up....and I miss his input, as he hasn't walked these halls in a while.

Acalex had a Jadis - I also miss his enthusiasm

Shafesk had a Cayin

Hoops on toast probably had one...but doesn't post here now. His input would have been valuable

I also helped someone, who ended up with a Vincent valve amp...but I can't remember his name (found it - he was LevK83 and it was back in 2011)

Lindsay I think has an SET amp.

It would be good if anyone else would make themselves known.

Yes, would be nice to know.
 

CnoEvil

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Mullard; GEC; AEG; Tung-Sol; Siemans; Gold Lyon; JJ Tesla and Electro Harmonix.

Advice from Prima Luna: https://www.primaluna-usa.com/tube-rolling/
 

CnoEvil

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KT88 - Beam powered Tetrode. Designed for high-power low-distortion. Manufactured in Russia and China.

KT90/KT120 /KT150 - are higher-powered direct replacement of KT88.

EL34 - Power Pentode

EL84 - Small noval base power pentode

300b - Directly-heated power triode vacuum tube with a four-pin base, introduced in 1938 to amplify telephone signals. It measures 6.4 inches high and 2.4 inches wide, and the anode can dissipate 40 watts.

845 - The 845[/b] power triode is a radio transmitting vacuum tube which can also be used as an audio amplifier and modulation tube. Typically, the plate is machined from solid graphite in order to accommodate high current dissipation (up to 100 watts) and voltage. Some current production 845 tubes have metal plates.

NOS - Stands for New Old Stock. These Vintage Valves that have never been used.

If any of this is wrong, let me know, as I'm on very dodgy ground, as far as my knowledge is concerned.
 

CnoEvil

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nopiano said:
Re the list, Cno, I think AVM use valves in some of their hybrid models.

While I'm in a list writing mood, I think Hybrids will have their own one, which will appear as a sub catagory on this thread.
 

CnoEvil

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insider9 said:
You can add Consonance to hybrids. Nearly bought one, that was when I went with Densen. Still wonder what would've happened if I did.

Your Hifi journey would have taken a very different course. *dirol*
 

insider9

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I bet it would. It was 100Wpc hybrid, but something didn't feel quite right about the transaction. It was too cheap. Opportunity missed, perhaps.

I'm as curious as they come, so don't beat myself about it. I seems to know quite well what I like now. And even if it continuously evolves I'm sure a hybrid will happen one day. All out valves are probably out of the question.
 

Macspur

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Just found this interesting little buying guide:

https://thevinylfactory.com/features/the-8-best-budget-valve-amplifiers-and-how-to-avoid-getting-ripped-off/

Think there's a couple of brands there to go on the list Cno.

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com
 

Singslinger

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I've only ever listened to two valve amps - the Japanese Audio Note which is sold under the Kondo brand name and Leben. The Kondo was paired with ProAc speakers (the D48 and K6) and the Leben with Audio Note speakers (the UK brand).

In both cases the sound was fabulous - very realistic and enjoyable. Makes me wonder why I'm still sticking to transistors....

My apologies however, for being unable to offer any technical knowledge on the subject as I know nothing about how tubes work.
 

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