acalex said:
This is typical of Linn......in fact you can usually pick up the Linn Black for £20 on Ebay. It also tells me that the Linn Silver is likely to be the VFM i/c on your system (for DS).
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This is typical of Linn......in fact you can usually pick up the Linn Black for £20 on Ebay. It also tells me that the Linn Silver is likely to be the VFM i/c on your system (for DS).
Electro
Well-known member
acalex said:Electro said:
Or maybe I could connect the phonostage to the line-in of my pc? Using an RCA-RCA to Jack cable?
Something like this might work? I could connect an RCA cables to the Tape-out of my amp and then straight into this adapter which will be connected to my MacBoo pro
As long as your macbook pro or PC has a good quality A / D ( analog to digital ) converter and the correct software then it should work .
The main advantage of a CDR recorder is that most of the good ones from the likes of Philips, Pioneer ,Tascam etc ,had very good quality A/D converters which are essential to get the best quality transfer .
Right, managed to get the uPnP server working on my media server at last, so the hard wired connection is all in.
Sadly, no change, exactly the same as before. Certainly an audible improvement with the Klimax, but, as I said before, adding maybe 10% over the ZP90. Don't get me wrong, the Renew sounds amazing, but the problem is the ZP90 sounds amazing too. The ZP90 puts out a touch more bass and lower midrange, where the Renew is a little leaner, and as I said before, a little more detailed with better PRaT and slightly better separation.
Can I just clarify how others have their Linn DS connected up to their system, and how they had their ZP90 connected up, when they made the comparison in their own system?
Sadly, no change, exactly the same as before. Certainly an audible improvement with the Klimax, but, as I said before, adding maybe 10% over the ZP90. Don't get me wrong, the Renew sounds amazing, but the problem is the ZP90 sounds amazing too. The ZP90 puts out a touch more bass and lower midrange, where the Renew is a little leaner, and as I said before, a little more detailed with better PRaT and slightly better separation.
Can I just clarify how others have their Linn DS connected up to their system, and how they had their ZP90 connected up, when they made the comparison in their own system?
Chewy said:
I heard the comparison of DS and Sonos at a dealer through a Linn System and Arcam AVR600 / Kef Refs.
The MDS is hardwired to a RipNas and plays Flac, while being connected to my MF AMS 35i through Cardas Cables and sitting on Black Ravioli.
In my system it produces a very musical sound, with subterranean bass and rich mid-range (Class A amp has a lot to do with this)......and imo it can't match the quality of the ADS/1 let alone the KDS/0.
I did try it (at home) through a Moon i7, where it sounded bright, analytical and fatiguing, with less bass. I did really enjoy it through my AVR600 though.
I really hope you get to the bottom of what is going on. There are so many issues (imo) that can effect things, like the room, associated equipment, speaker position, cables etc etc.
Thanks for your reply Cno, but in your comparison was the Sonos connected via a ddigital connection or analogue?
Akurate is connected to the Primo with XLR cables / cat6 hard wired to switch / switch cat6 hardwired to router / PC & NAS cat6 hardwired to router.
I haven't made a real comparison or hard wired vs wireless. Just set it up hardwired when I bought it and have used it that way ever since.
Initially hooked the Akurate to the primo with RCA cables & did hear a difference when I swapped over to XLR.
Tune-in & Spotify both work well via Airplay.
I have never had a Sonos at home so can't offer any help there.
Have you contacted the seller yet to see if there is any input he can offer? Don't wait, get his help while there's still some goodwill from the sale!
I haven't made a real comparison or hard wired vs wireless. Just set it up hardwired when I bought it and have used it that way ever since.
Initially hooked the Akurate to the primo with RCA cables & did hear a difference when I swapped over to XLR.
Tune-in & Spotify both work well via Airplay.
I have never had a Sonos at home so can't offer any help there.
Have you contacted the seller yet to see if there is any input he can offer? Don't wait, get his help while there's still some goodwill from the sale!
Electro said:acalex said:Electro said:
Or maybe I could connect the phonostage to the line-in of my pc? Using an RCA-RCA to Jack cable?
Something like this might work? I could connect an RCA cables to the Tape-out of my amp and then straight into this adapter which will be connected to my MacBoo pro
As long as your macbook pro or PC has a good quality A / D ( analog to digital ) converter and the correct software then it should work .
The main advantage of a CDR recorder is that most of the good ones from the likes of Philips, Pioneer ,Tascam etc ,had very good quality A/D converters which are essential to get the best quality transfer .
Is this the case? I thought most PCs A/D convertors weren't that good?
Wouldn't the USB adaptor that Alex has shown have it's own A/D built in? Or does it send an analogue signal to the PC via USB? Doesn't sound right does it?
Either way, the CDR suggestion is a good one. Great to know you can get that same vinyl sound on your Akurate hey Alex? Can leave the Aston Martin in the garage for good now! 8)
CnoEvil said:
All I can think is that must be down to the DAC? I have never tried the analogue connection out of the ZP90 I've always had it connected via digital, therefore using the DAC in another devices. The Primare SP32 isn't great (I currently have it on loan until my new processor arrives) and was a definite step down compared to the D2v I traded in, but it is still a £4k audio only processor, so it must have a pretty good DAC in it which is bringing the performance of the ZP90 (which just acting as a digital transport, and hence may be having very little impact on the audio quality) up closer to the performance level of the Renew.
I can imagine that using the DAC in the Sonos and outputting via its analogue connections would produce a pretty poor result given its price point compared to a Linn DS (I'll have to give that a go on the Sonos and see what it sounds like), but I guess using the digital out on the Sonos then places the reliance on the outboard DAC.
That's the only thing I can think of at this stage anyway!
Neuphonix said:
Thanks Neuphonix, what difference did you notice switching to XLR, was it better or worse?
Good idea - I've contacted the seller (Richard at Krescendo Hifi), and I'll see what advice he can offer.
Chewy said:
That will almost certainly be part of the answer to the discrepancy in sound, as that is what I had in mind (wrongly so) when thinking of the Sonos.
IMO. Your speakers are brilliant, and I believe your source is brilliant....so is it possible that something awry is happening in between?
Chewy said:
I don't want this thread to turn into another cable discussion, but......
much better definition of voices, separation of instruments, less background noise.
Albeit the quality of RCA leads I was using wasn't top of the line, but still of a reasonable quality. I certainly didn't go through the process that Roby & Alex are doing at the moment.
Do remember thinking when I made the switch that this could have been one of the biggest differences I heard between the Majik & the Akurate.
I had always been of the belief that a balanced connection was always superior to unbalanced. But it turns out that even this may be another cable myth!
My pre/power allows for a balanced connection so it seemed to make sense to try and have the source connected them same way.
Of course this could have just been my mind conforming to my expectations? :?
I am in the market for a Linn Sneaky second hand...budget max 500GBP or 600 eur. Looking to make a secondary system for bedroom/home office.
Speakers will probably be some SF or Vienna acoustic (monitors for both brands). I have heard the Sneaky with these and it was a sweet system...
So if you see anything around just let me know
Speakers will probably be some SF or Vienna acoustic (monitors for both brands). I have heard the Sneaky with these and it was a sweet system...
So if you see anything around just let me know
Neuphonix said:I had always been of the belief that a balanced connection was always superior to unbalanced. But it turns out that even this may be another cable myth!
Maybe preferable would be a better word.
Here is an example in a Linn system (about 11 paragraphs down and starting "Fortunately"): http://www.rdhworld.myzen.co.uk/smfcu/index.php?topic=18334.0
In case the guy's other blogs might prove of interest (if you scroll down there may be a couple): http://audiophilemusings.blogspot.co.uk/
Chewy said:
Gareth, here are typical discussions about the Renew DS, in case you haven't seen them (and in case it helps): http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=11876
and: http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=13976
and: http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=12177
and: http://forums.linn.co.uk/bb/showthread.php?tid=16720 (in this thread, it is advised that the internal volume is disabled, and also how it comes alive, when turned up a bit (vs an Electro CDP)
This is somebody discussing how his KDS/0 reacted to different cables: http://www.hifi-advice.com/Linn-Klimax-DS-review.html
There were times he felt the bass was on the light side. I'm sorry for all the links, but if it gives more insight, it might help get a feel of what might be going on.
CnoEvil said:Neuphonix said:I had always been of the belief that a balanced connection was always superior to unbalanced. But it turns out that even this may be another cable myth!
Maybe preferable would be a better word.
Here is an example in a Linn system (about 11 paragraphs down and starting "Fortunately"): http://www.rdhworld.myzen.co.uk/smfcu/index.php?topic=18334.0
In case the guy's other blogs might prove of interest (if you scroll down there may be a couple): http://audiophilemusings.blogspot.co.uk/
Thanks for those mate
I did read the first article before buying my Akurate, but must confess the part about the IC swapover didn't register.
Certainly food for thought. I might have a play around this weekend, try some side by side balanced/unbalanced listening. The primo should be quite good for this, leave both connected & flick the switch on the back from one to the other.
Unfortunately I just moved on all my Audioquest RCA leads on eBay last week so it will have to be the cheaper Neotech cables.
Had a quick look at his other blog posts & there was a brief one talking about his impressions of the ADS on an isolation plinth. Much the same as you with your pasta, he found the improvement to be significant.
Still cant quite get my head around how a device with no moving components can benifit from this type of tweak, but will have to give it a go. :?
Neuphonix said:Thanks for those mate
I did read the first article before buying my Akurate, but must confess the part about the IC swapover didn't register.
Certainly food for thought. I might have a play around this weekend, try some side by side balanced/unbalanced listening. The primo should be quite good for this, leave both connected & flick the switch on the back from one to the other.
Unfortunately I just moved on all my Audioquest RCA leads on eBay last week so it will have to be the cheaper Neotech cables.
Had a quick look at his other blog posts & there was a brief one talking about his impressions of the ADS on an isolation plinth. Much the same as you with your pasta, he found the improvement to be significant.
Still cant quite get my head around how a device with no moving components can benifit from this type of tweak, but will have to give it a go. :?
I think on balance (
), balanced connections usually sound better, especially if the source / amp are of a truly balanced design. Electro stuff sounds better when wired this way. I just wanted to make the point that you can't always make assumptions.One of the reasons that the Klimax DS (and the expensive Naim I think) uses such a fancy case, is to isolate the sensitive electronics inside. A good isolation system (imo) not only isolates from the outside, but drains unwanted resonance / vibrations from the inside. BR recommend some of the pads are put on the casework under the power supply.
Any differences between RDS and KDS/0 will be down to the better case.
Just out of interest, do you think a Tortellini would work as well as a Raviolli?
I'm torn between the spinach/ricotta or the veal?
How about a good Chinese dumpling? :?
I'm torn between the spinach/ricotta or the veal?
How about a good Chinese dumpling? :?
Neuphonix said:Just out of interest, do you think a Tortellini would work as well as a Raviolli?
I'm torn between the spinach/ricotta or the veal?
How about a good Chinese dumpling? :?
(A layer of Irish Blarney Stone is hard to beat) :shifty:
CnoEvil said:Neuphonix said:Just out of interest, do you think a Tortellini would work as well as a Raviolli?
I'm torn between the spinach/ricotta or the veal?
How about a good Chinese dumpling? :?
(A layer of Irish Blarney Stone is hard to beat) :shifty:
If I could find that little fella at the end of the rainbow and pich his pot of gold I'd be able to upgrade to a Klimax.
Speaking of udgrades, and apologies for going off topic for a moment, my Bryston crossover for the subs arrived yesterday. So off to the tech this morning for the voltage change over. Not sure how long this is going to take, will keep you posted.
A sturdy piece of equipment I must say, really heavy for its size. I opened it up to have a look at the transformer, see if it was easily switchable between 110/240, no such luck.
Cant wait to have a play with it
Neuphonix said:Speaking of udgrades, and apologies for going off topic for a moment, my Bryston crossover for the subs arrived yesterday. So off to the tech this morning for the voltage change over. Not sure how long this is going to take, will keep you posted.
A sturdy piece of equipment I must say, really heavy for its size. I opened it up to have a look at the transformer, see if it was easily switchable between 110/240, no such luck.
Cant wait to have a play with it
No apology necessary......it's my thread, and you can talk about whatever you like.
I suspect when all is set up correctly, you will be absoutely thrilled!
Macspur
Well-known member
CnoEvil said:Neuphonix said:Just out of interest, do you think a Tortellini would work as well as a Raviolli?
I'm torn between the spinach/ricotta or the veal?
How about a good Chinese dumpling? :?
(A layer of Irish Blarney Stone is hard to beat) :shifty:
Whatever you do don't try Irish stew! mind you I think 4 slices of soda bread would be perfect!
Mac
Macspur said:
4 Soda Farls on bed of Turf comes in a close second (and you don't have to kiss it).
Gareth, how are you getting on with your Renew DS.....are you getting to the bottom of what is going on?
CnoEvil said:
Hi Cno,
Yes, the plot thickens a little . . .
I got the hard wired connection working as I think I outlined in a previous post. I also tried various cable changes including some £350 XLR cables and some RCA's to see if the different connection made any difference. I noticed a slightly different sonic signature with the different XLR's, but too small to tell whether it was real or perceived, and it was just different, not better. RCA's were very very close also, maybe just the slightest rounding off of the finest details, so essentially very slightly worse than via XLR. (Incidentally I also grabbed the Lumin iPad control interface - significantly better and easier to use than Kinksy!)
Switching back and forth between the Sonos (remember, via digital coax into the Primare SP32, not using the Sonos DAC) and the Klimax Renew (analogue out from the Renew into the SP32), by teeing up the same track on both systems (which makes for very good and quick A-B testing) over a number of tracks and probably 5-6 hours of listening, there was still only perhaps 10-15% improvement with the Renew over the Sonos/SP32.
As I said before, the Renew provides better rythm and timing and makes music more engaging and 'foot-tapping', there is a slight increase in detail and seperation of instruments and vocals, and a thinner more neutral but defined sound (possibly a little too thin) through the lower mids and bass, where as the Sonos/SP32 is more full bodied in the lower mids and bass (but probably too much so, making tracks a little bloated and muddied in that region). I also download a few hi-res albums from the Linn store, and tried those - they sounded incredible through the Renew, probably the best I have ever heard an acoustic guitar through my system. Whether that is the better mastering or the 24bit file type is for another discussion, but it certainly sounded very very good!
So, by way on conclusion, all I could deduce was that the DAC in the SP32 (which is not a cheap bit of kit at £4k) was bringing the performance of the Sonos up close to that of the Renew - which kind of makes sense given that all the Sonos is doing is pulling the digital file from the server, decoding it, and spitting it out (still in the digital domain) to the Primare. The dealer I bought it off agreed that this was more than likely the case also. It seems that most people who have compared the Sonos to the Renew/Akurate/Klimax, have (understandably) done so using the Sonos's internal DAC, where obviously you would expect a huge difference given that it is a £279 device.
Clearly, to me, where the performance differences appear to be the greatest are where different DAC's come into play. Which got me thinking . . . what sort of DAC could I get with the money I had spent on the Renew, and would using this with the Sonos give equal (or better) performance than the Renew? My plan was therefore to home demo a Chord QBD76 HDSD DAC to see whether it could close the gap on the Renew, at a cheaper price.
However, yesterday I took delivery of a NAD M51 DAC demo unit, (though I still plan to get a demo of the Chord QBD76 HDSD DAC also) following a very strong recommendation to try it. To be honest though, at £1500 before discounts I wasn't holding out too much hope.
After hooking up the M51 I spent a couple of hours doing A-B testing with the same tracks, between that (Sonos/M51) and the Renew, both via XLR into the Primare . . . . All I can say is 'Wow!', I was more than a little surprised and impressed - the M51 is quite something - in my system it gave a decent step up over the Renew, perhaps to a similar extent than the Renew did over the Sonos/SP32. The M51 revealed detail in the tracks that the Renew simply didn't recover - it gave a clearer sense of the acoustic space the artists were performing in; there is a natural audible decay and reverberation to the instruments and vocals that is clearly there in the recordings that the Renew simply didn't resolve. It also added even greater separation, detail and texture to vocals and instruments than the Renew achieved, and added significantly more three dimensional depth to the sound stage, whilst really striking the ideal tonal middle ground in that lower mid/bass region - fuller and more balanced than the Renew, and tighter and more defined than the Sonos/SP32.
As I say, I was more than a little surprised, and took the demo really only on a recommendation. I certainly didn't expect it to best the Renew, but hoped merely that it might close the gap a little.
Given its £1500 price tag, the fairly extensive feature set (HDMI inputs, re-clocking etc) compared to most DAC's, and of course the incredible sound quality I experienced last night, it's an absolute steal.
Needless to say, the I have decided to send the Renew back for a refund, and will be getting an M51. With the £2,500 change, I will probably get the matching M50 streamer that is due out shortly, which will give me 24bit streaming and possibly another step up in sound quality over the Sonos - plus I'll still have change!
Don't get me wrong, this has been a pleasurable experience, and a real eye-opener to me, on the huge importance of the DAC in a digital streaming set-up. The Renew is a fabulous sounding piece of kit in its own right, and for someone adding this to a system with lesser DAC's, the improvement will be substantial. But given the existence of the M51(and possible other DAC's out there up to the value of the Renew/Akurate), one has to question the value for money of the Linn offering - and that is even without considering the full price Klimax DS.
Many thanks for all your help Cno (and others), as always, the journey continues...
- Gareth
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