The Linn DS / DSM thread

[Chewy]

Well given that Cno, Acalex and a couple of others on this forum helped me choose my latest streamer, I thought I'd honour Cno's request and share my experiences on this thread.

Yesterday I took delivery of a used Linn Klimax Renew, and was very excited to get it home and try it out.

Initial 'unboxing' impressions were that I have quite possibly never paid quite so much for such a small lightweight and unassuming box (aside from SWMBO's engagement ring - but that was a long time ago!).

My system is as per my sig below, but to clarify I have a Primare SP32 (this is temporary, on loan until my new audio processor arrives) connected to some bespoke 1000 watt monoblcs, powering a pair of PMC MB2i's. Now I appreciate this is leaning slightly more towards home cinema than pure hifi, but I like to think it is of a high enough resolution to be able to subjectively review the audible impact of any upstream components.

My reference point for streaming is a Sonos ZP90 connected via digital coax to the SP32, and hard wired to the router (if that makes any difference).

So . . . I hooked the Renew up last night, via the balanced outputs, for a quick play about with it and I have to say . . . I'm a little dissappointed. Now before I get shot full of holes, dissappointed is perhaps the wrong word to use, probably a better way of putting it is I became incredibly impressed by just how good the Sonos option is.

Now make no mistake, the Renew sounded superb. Given a bit of juice (which frankly the MB's need to sound their best), the quality of the stereo sound field produced was superb. It was of course better than the Sonos - there was a slight increase in the separation between instruments and backing vocals, a slightly larger and more three dimensional soundstage, a touch more 'air' and detail retrieval and a noticable improvement in PRaT (I found my foot tapping much more with the Renew than with the Sonos).

However I use the words 'slight' and 'touch' purposefully because the Renew added (if I had to quantify it) possible 10% over the ZP90. Whilst this is a necessary step on the path towards audio nirvana, the increase wasn't at the 'chin on the floor' sort of level that I was anticipating for a streamer costing more than 10 times the price (and that being in its second hand reboxed form).

Now, one caveat - and this may well make all the difference, which other more experienced DS users way well be able to confirm. My media server doesn't currently have uPnP support, I need to add this when I get a little more time, so I was streaming to the Renew by using the mapped server network drive from my (wirelessly connected) laptop, and using the Kinksy desktop software (which I have to say was a little dire after being used to the slickness of the Sonos interface). So, if my understanding of the data flow is correct, the network path was:

Server > Router > (Wireless) > Laptop > (Wireless) > Router > Klimax Renew

Whether or not this connection setup is doing a disservice to the Renew I will only be able to test once I get uPnP server software working on my media server (UnRaid), which I will attempt tonight and which will provide a direct hardwired connection between Renew and server without bringing a PC into play. If anyone else has any experience of this, please feel free to shed some light.

Perhaps there is something else that I am missing - perhaps the DAC in the SP32 is better than I am giving it credit for (I haven't been too impressed with the SP32 generally) which is narrowing the gap (remember I'm not using the DAC in the ZP90).

Needless to say the Renew will be staying in the rack as it does sound better, and more testing is required on my part, but these are my initial observations in any case.

 

[acalex]

Hi there, sorry if you feel a little disappointed but I am sure there must be an explanation as the Akurate sound MUCH better than the Sonos so there is no way the Klimax sounds only 10% better. Are you using the silver cable provided? Everything should be hard wired...better to run a media server software on NAS which is hardwired to the router. Klimax should be also hard-wired to the router.

You can use Twonky or simply the Logitech Squeezerver as it works great with the DS streamers.

Please report back

 

[Neuphonix]

Hi Chewy,

sorry to hear that your purchase didn't knock your socks off

I think that a wired connection will make a difference, Linn recommend this as the correct way to set things up. You probably don't need one from your laptop, but if your music is stored on the NAS & this is where Kinksky is getting the files from then wired is def the way to go.

Apparently purple Cat700000millionE with platinum/kryptonite braided shield & gold connectors will give superior performance than your bog standard grey cat6! :rofl:

They also recommend that the streamer be hooked up via a separate router, but I think this is more to do with configuration than SQ. If Kinsky is seeing the Klimax on the network then maybe this is not necessary in your case.

I don't think that any uPNP set-up should make a difference to the SQ, this is more a matter of interface. Some people prefer Twonky, but there seems to be a growing number of people on the Linn site who are using Minimserv.

In a post I put up a few days ago there was a link to a thread on the Linn site that went into why using Kinsky was preferable to iTunes via Songcast. One way pushes the files to the Klimax (not as good), the other pulls the files (better).

I don't think that there was ever much arguement about Sonos having a superior interface to Linn. Kinsky is functional but pretty clunky. You can try Chorus (there's a link on the Linn site) some people prefer this. They offer a free demo on your PC, but if you want to try it on a tablet it costs quite a lot. I didn't feel that it offered to justify the outlay, but it is worth a try.

There was a new interface called Lumin that came up recently for use with Minimserv which looked interesting, much more emphasis on the visual aspect. I downloaded it & gave it a try but found it to be a bit buggy. It's very new & I had only just installed Minimserv, so will wait a while before ruling it out. It is free so worth a look: https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/lumin/id524332800

What type of files are you using? Dare I say it but you could try a few 24bit files just as an experiment :shhh:

Register on the Linn forum, they are a pretty active bunch over there, any queries should be answered quite quickly.

Get in contact with the guy you bought the unit from and have a chat. I would say that he's the type of person who would be concerned if you weren't 100% with a unit like the renew & go out of his way to get it working the way you want it to.

Good luck. let us know how it works out.

 

[Neuphonix]

Hey Alex,

you never answered my question about vinyl ripping. Do you or Roby have a way to be able to do this?

If so have you been able to hear any difference to a digital file?

 

[Chewy]

Hi Acalex,

No, don't get me wrong, as I say, disappointed is probably the wrong word, my system sounds better than it has ever done, and zi am sitting here as zi tyPe listening to familiar track that sound better than I have ever heard them - partially down to the MB2i's which are just friggin' amazing, but also down to the improvement the Renew adds! The Renew definitely improves on the ZP90, but as I say I am surprised at how little the ZP90 give away to the Renew - I kind of expected a VHS to Blu-ray kind of improvement.

When you compared the Akurate to the Sonos were you using the DAC in the Sonos or something off board?

- Gareth

 

[acalex]

Hi Acalex,

No, don't get me wrong, as I say, disappointed is probably the wrong word, my system sounds better than it has ever done, and zi am sitting here as zi tyPe listening to familiar track that sound better than I have ever heard them - partially down to the MB2i's which are just friggin' amazing, but also down to the improvement the Renew adds! The Renew definitely improves on the ZP90, but as I say I am surprised at how little the ZP90 give away to the Renew - I kind of expected a VHS to Blu-ray kind of improvement.

When you compared the Akurate to the Sonos were you using the DAC in the Sonos or something off board?

- Gareth

I always heard the Sonos through an M2Tech DAC (1100 euro) and I can assure you the Akurate is quite a step up...so I am a bit puzzled :O

Just try to set-up everything as it should and let the Klimax play a little bit...

 

[acalex]

Hey Alex,

you never answered my question about vinyl ripping. Do you or Roby have a way to be able to do this?

If so have you been able to hear any difference to a digital file?

Ups sorry, I think I missed this! Not unfortunately we do not have anything to ryp vinyls...

 

[Chewy]

Hi Neuphonix,

Thanks for the detailed reply. Yeah, I think I need to get the wired option sorted, the transmission over the wireless network (twice) may be having an impact, who knows.

Lets not start a cable debate - though my Cat6 cable is black, which definitely sounds better than grey! 😉

in terms of uPnP, that's more of a matter of getting the uPnP server server to work on my media server - should be fairly straight forward. That will allow a wired connection, versus the wireless connection I am using currently.

Files types are all FLAC, once I sort out the uPnP thing I will get some hi-res tracks from HDTracks or similar. Again, not wishing to start a HiRes versus red book debate, I definitely hear an improvement on some hi-res tracks (via SACD), whether that is as a result of mastering or higher bit rate I don't know. Having recently heard a non-released BBC test disc on CD, I have heard what the very best mastering can achieve on a red book CD, so I'm inclined to fall on the latter side.

Kinksy is clunky for sure, though having said that, ifnI could simply browse by artist I would be happy with it! But yes, Sonos is slick, it always has been since I first bought a ZP100 6 years ago. I will definitely try the other interface a go, I have read about Lumin, so that's definitely one to try!

cheers,

Gareth

 

[Neuphonix]

Hey Alex,

you never answered my question about vinyl ripping. Do you or Roby have a way to be able to do this?

If so have you been able to hear any difference to a digital file?

Ups sorry, I think I missed this! Not unfortunately we do not have anything to ryp vinyls...

Would be intersting to know if you can capture the "vinyl" sound?

 

[Neuphonix]

I've had my Akurate for about three months now & have just been using Kinsky/Twonky. Works OK.

Initially I was really particular with what files I put on my NAS, tried to do things slowly & methodically. But then I dumped a massive amount on there & it has stuggled a bit since.

I use the artist/album search quite a lot because it keeps the albums separate & in track order. If you just look by artist you get a list of files in alphabetical order. Would be great if you could browse by file, but again it changes everything from track order to alphabetical order.

Twonky can be pretty painful, I think that's why may people are migrating over to Minimserv. The guy who wrote it is a Linn member & he listens to owners thoughts & suggestions for improvements.

So the next few months for me are going to be playing around with which server/interface combo works best. Also figuring out track tagging/meta data editing to try & organise things better & continue ripping my collection.

 

[CnoEvil]

My system is as per my sig below, but to clarify I have a Primare SP32 (this is temporary, on loan until my new audio processor arrives) connected to some bespoke 1000 watt monoblcs, powering a pair of PMC MB2i's. Now I appreciate this is leaning slightly more towards home cinema than pure hifi, but I like to think it is of a high enough resolution to be able to subjectively review the audible impact of any upstream components.

My reference point for streaming is a Sonos ZP90 connected via digital coax to the SP32, and hard wired to the router (if that makes any difference).

So . . . I hooked the Renew up last night, via the balanced outputs, for a quick play about with it and I have to say . . . I'm a little disappointed. Now before I get shot full of holes, disappointed is perhaps the wrong word to use, probably a better way of putting it is I became incredibly impressed by just how good the Sonos option is.

I wouldn't panic yet......and I certainly would never "shoot anyone full of holes", for their opinion. 😉

There is something a little strange going on. I found my MDS made the Sonos sound broken, and the KDS made my MDS sound very ordinary, which IMO. it isn't.

I have only heard the DS hardwired, from a UPnP NAS, so can't comment on anything else......which version of Davaar is it running on?

I take it all your music is in a lossless format (WAV / FLAC?)

Allow it to settle into your final system (and wired as recommended), before making a conclusive evaluation (which I know is your intention). Once you have lived with it for a while, I will be staggered if you haven't changed your mind. Sometimes going back to what you had, after getting acclimatized to what you have, can show up the differences better.

If after all this has been done and you are still disappointed, I can only apologize if I have mislead you in any way....but at least you should have no trouble selling it on, which would I hope, be a very last resort.

I think joining the Linn Forum is a good idea, as it is a mine of info.

You might also ring the dealer you bought it from, to get his input.

 

[Chewy]

Hi Cno,

No, don't worry, there's no buyer remorse here, and you have in no way misled me, my desire to buy and try a Linn streamer was based on a fair bit of research.

The unit is running on Davaar 9 (4.9.7), internal volume is switched off also.

I also have no intention of selling it so soon either, I believe in living with kit for some time before making a decision and in any case there is an improvement over the Sonos, even if it only slight at the moment.

I need to get it hard wired to start with, and then review again.

Cheers

Gareth

 

[CnoEvil]

Hi Cno,

No, don't worry, there's no buyer remorse here, and you have in no way misled me, my desire to buy and try a Linn streamer was based on a fair bit of research.

The unit is running on Davaar 9 (4.9.7), internal volume is switched off also.

I also have no intention of selling it so soon either, I believe in living with kit for some time before making a decision and in any case there is an improvement over the Sonos, even if it only slight at the moment.

I need to get it hard wired to start with, and then review again.

Cheers

Gareth

You are kind to say so.

Two things I found made a difference.....Linn Silver I/C and Black Ravioli. If interested, they need to be borrowed, as you don't want to spend any more money until you are sure it's going to work out....but it's always worth experimenting.

Without wanting to stirr up more argument.....what i/c and s/c are you using?

 

[acalex]

Hi Cno,

No, don't worry, there's no buyer remorse here, and you have in no way misled me, my desire to buy and try a Linn streamer was based on a fair bit of research.

The unit is running on Davaar 9 (4.9.7), internal volume is switched off also.

I also have no intention of selling it so soon either, I believe in living with kit for some time before making a decision and in any case there is an improvement over the Sonos, even if it only slight at the moment.

I need to get it hard wired to start with, and then review again.

Cheers

Gareth

You are kind to say so.

Two things I found made a difference.....Linn Silver I/C and Black Ravioli. If interested, they need to be borrowed, as you don't want to spend any more money until you are sure it's going to work out....but it's always worth experimenting.

Without wanting to stirr up more argument.....what i/c and s/c are you using?

If of any interest I am planning to try Black Ravioli and also Acoustic System top line feet - clicky

I will report back if any improvement is significant enough to take the plunge

 

[CnoEvil]

If of any interest I am planning to try Black Ravioli and also Acoustic System top line feet - clicky

I will report back if any improvement is significant enough to take the plunge

That will be great.

Be sure you try both the original BR Pads and Bigfeet, as they sounded quite different in my set up.

Tell me, have you tried a different power cable on the DS and what effect did it have.

 

[acalex]

If of any interest I am planning to try Black Ravioli and also Acoustic System top line feet - clicky

I will report back if any improvement is significant enough to take the plunge

That will be great.

Be sure you try both the original BR Pads and Bigfeet, as they sounded quite different in my set up.

Tell me, have you tried a different power cable on the DS and what effect did it have.

Yes, I told the shop they should send also the Bigfeet as I would like to try them under the amp also (where I might put a triple at the back where the weight is and two singles or doubles in the front).

I am also very curios to try these feet made of wood as Francis told me that if I borrow them I won't be giving them back 😀

For now I am using a 50 eur power cord the guy was using in the shop also. I might try to switch to the Siltech which I have in demo still...and report back.

 

[CnoEvil]

Yes, I told the shop they should send also the Bigfeet as I would like to try them under the amp also (where I might put a triple at the back where the weight is and two singles or doubles in the front).

I am also very curios to try these feet made of wood as Francis told me that if I borrow them I won't be giving them back 😀

It will be a good challange, as the BR is also good at what it does, and is cheaper.

For now I am using a 50 eur power cord the guy was using in the shop also. I might try to switch to the Siltech which I have in demo still...and report back.

Make sure you try it's standard lead, as I never managed to get much difference.

When will you have these isolation devices?

 

[Electro]

Hey Alex,

you never answered my question about vinyl ripping. Do you or Roby have a way to be able to do this?

If so have you been able to hear any difference to a digital file?

Ups sorry, I think I missed this! Not unfortunately we do not have anything to ryp vinyls...

Sorry to butt in 🙂 but a simple and cheap way to rip vinyl is with an old CDR player .

I have an old Philips CDR 760 and the A/D converter inside is pretty good , I burn a Cd of the piece of vinyl from my Linn to a CDR disc and then the CDR can be ripped in any way you please and you have a top quality hard copy backup .

I have done a simple blind test and the original vinyl played on my Linn sounds absolutely identical to the CDR copy played on my Electrocompaniet EMC1 UP .

Good second hand CDR recorders can be bought very cheaply now but you will have to buy " music CDR's " online and they are getting harder to find .

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jewel-Cased-TDK-Writeable-Recorders/dp/B001G3WP3U/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1357815814&sr=8-3

 

[Chewy]

You are kind to say so.

Two things I found made a difference.....Linn Silver I/C and Black Ravioli. If interested, they need to be borrowed, as you don't want to spend any more money until you are sure it's going to work out....but it's always worth experimenting.

Without wanting to stirr up more argument.....what i/c and s/c are you using?

Black Ravoili? I'm not a big fan of pasta! More seriously (also without wishing to start a cable debate) I have decent quality silver XLR cables, so I wouldn't expect a cable change to make a masive difference. The unit on its own, hard wired as Linn stipulate in the manual, should produce the largest audible difference over the Sonos irrespective of cabling. Cable changes are just going to be incremental tweaks at best.

That said, are you guys connecting your DS's to your system using the XLR's or the RCA's? Not sure if that would make a difference?

- Gareth

 

[CnoEvil]

Black Ravoili? I'm not a big fan of pasta! More seriously (also without wishing to start a cable debate) I have decent quality silver XLR cables, so I wouldn't expect a cable change to make a masive difference. The unit on its own, hard wired as Linn stipulate in the manual, should produce the largest audible difference over the Sonos irrespective of cabling. Cable changes are just going to be incremental tweaks at best.

That said, are you guys connecting your DS's to your system using the XLR's or the RCA's? Not sure if that would make a difference?

- Gareth

Linn Silver I/Cs are copper (confusingly), and work well with Linn components, which is why I mentioned it.

My MDS doesn't have XLR, so it's RCA for me.

I know on certain all Linn systems, the RCA can sound better, but it will depend on whether the amp is fully balanced or not. Balanced "should" sound better, but sometimes people prefer the sound from RCA.

IME The effect of cabling can go from subtle / negligible, to considerable, but is something to look at when everything else is in place. FWIW. I have yet to hear solid silver or silver coated cables that I like.....again it's personal. My advice is to remain sceptical but try some good cables at different prices and see what you think (eg. Atlas, TQ, Vertere, Cardas, Siltech, MIT etc). TQ is the one causing the stir atm, and I expect to see Vertere following in their footsteps.

It could be worth following the cable adventures of Alex and Rob, as they are trying out, and reporting on the effect that most of these cables have for them....as well as isolation devices, like BR!

 

[acalex]

Black Ravoili? I'm not a big fan of pasta! More seriously (also without wishing to start a cable debate) I have decent quality silver XLR cables, so I wouldn't expect a cable change to make a masive difference. The unit on its own, hard wired as Linn stipulate in the manual, should produce the largest audible difference over the Sonos irrespective of cabling. Cable changes are just going to be incremental tweaks at best.

That said, are you guys connecting your DS's to your system using the XLR's or the RCA's? Not sure if that would make a difference?

- Gareth

Linn Silver I/Cs are copper (confusingly), and work well with Linn components, which is why I mentioned it.

My MDS doesn't have XLR, so it's RCA for me.

I know on certain all Linn systems, the RCA can sound better, but it will depend on whether the amp is fully balanced or not. Balanced "should" sound better, but sometimes people prefer the sound from RCA.

IME The effect of cabling can go from subtle / negligible, to considerable, but is something to look at when everything else is in place. FWIW. I have yet to hear solid silver or silver coated cables that I like.....again it's personal. My advice is to remain sceptical but try some good cables at different prices and see what you think (eg. Atlas, TQ, Vertere, Cardas, Siltech, MIT etc). TQ is the one causing the stir atm, and I expect to see Vertere following in their footsteps.

It could be worth following the cable adventures of Alex and Rob, as they are trying out, and reporting on the effect that most of these cables have for them....as well as isolation devices, like BR!

I use RCA on my Akurate as my amp does not have XLR. When swapping from Siltech 550i (700 eur) to Linn Black (80 eur) I found the difference quite meaningful...and I preferred the Black! So you should stick with the Linn cables (silver for better performances) as they can make quite a difference. It actually saved me quite some money!

First think you should do is to hard-wire everything...than trying some Linn cables. It is not possible a Kilmax Renew won't sound MUCH better than a Sonos. As I told you I tried the Sonos with a 1100 euro DAC and still prefer by far the Akurate...

 

[acalex]

Yes, I told the shop they should send also the Bigfeet as I would like to try them under the amp also (where I might put a triple at the back where the weight is and two singles or doubles in the front).

I am also very curios to try these feet made of wood as Francis told me that if I borrow them I won't be giving them back 😀

It will be a good challange, as the BR is also good at what it does, and is cheaper.

For now I am using a 50 eur power cord the guy was using in the shop also. I might try to switch to the Siltech which I have in demo still...and report back.

Make sure you try it's standard lead, as I never managed to get much difference.

When will you have these isolation devices?

If Francis has them in stock, Saturday might be the day. Hopefully in the meantime he will also get the BRs...

 

[acalex]

Hey Alex,

you never answered my question about vinyl ripping. Do you or Roby have a way to be able to do this?

If so have you been able to hear any difference to a digital file?

Ups sorry, I think I missed this! Not unfortunately we do not have anything to ryp vinyls...

Sorry to butt in 🙂 but a simple and cheap way to rip vinyl is with an old CDR player .

I have an old Philips CDR 760 and the A/D converter inside is pretty good , I burn a Cd of the piece of vinyl from my Linn to a CDR disc and then the CDR can be ripped in any way you please and you have a top quality hard copy backup .

I have done a simple blind test and the original vinyl played on my Linn sounds absolutely identical to the CDR copy played on my Electrocompaniet EMC1 UP .

Good second hand CDR recorders can be bought very cheaply now but you will have to buy " music CDR's " online and they are getting harder to find .

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jewel-Cased-TDK-Writeable-Recorders/dp/B001G3WP3U/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1357815814&sr=8-3

Very interesting...shall I connect the phonostage out to the CDR I guess, right?

 

[Electro]

Hey Alex,

you never answered my question about vinyl ripping. Do you or Roby have a way to be able to do this?

If so have you been able to hear any difference to a digital file?

Ups sorry, I think I missed this! Not unfortunately we do not have anything to ryp vinyls...

Sorry to butt in 🙂 but a simple and cheap way to rip vinyl is with an old CDR player .

I have an old Philips CDR 760 and the A/D converter inside is pretty good , I burn a Cd of the piece of vinyl from my Linn to a CDR disc and then the CDR can be ripped in any way you please and you have a top quality hard copy backup .

I have done a simple blind test and the original vinyl played on my Linn sounds absolutely identical to the CDR copy played on my Electrocompaniet EMC1 UP .

Good second hand CDR recorders can be bought very cheaply now but you will have to buy " music CDR's " online and they are getting harder to find .

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jewel-Cased-TDK-Writeable-Recorders/dp/B001G3WP3U/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1357815814&sr=8-3

Very interesting...shall I connect the phonostage out to the CDR I guess, right?

Yes you could connect the output of your phonostage directly to the CDR recorder or you could just connect the CDR recorder to the "Tape out " of your amplifier .

I have copied many of my rare pieces of vinyl this way and the sound quality including the vinyl warmth and character is transferred to digital perfectly with no loss at all .

 

[acalex]

Yes you could connect the output of your phonostage directly to the CDR recorder or you could just connect the CDR recorder to the "Tape out " of your amplifier .

I have copied many of my rare pieces of vinyl this way and the sound quality including the vinyl warmth and character is transferred to digital perfectly with no loss at all .

Or maybe I could connect the phonostage to the line-in of my pc? Using an RCA-RCA to Jack cable?

Something like this might work? I could connect an RCA cables to the Tape-out of my amp and then straight into this adapter which will be connected to my MacBoo pro