The Good, The Bad & The Ugly (Online Sales)

[bigboss]

I realise shops provide the above facility but there are plenty of threads on here about shops that don't have items in stock to demo. My point was that if manufacturers directly provided a demo facility either home trial or in unit somewhere they could ensure all their range was present. Several manufacturers clubbing together would lower costs. If people could demo through the manufacturers this might alleviate some of the pressure of returns on shops.

Your suggestion wouldn't work. Many manufacturers aren't going to invest in joint premises, as many of them are in competition. Then it needs staffing. You know have a shop. Manufacturers already have retailers to offer demo facilities. Which dealers manufacturers choose to go into is up to them.

There are a number of dealers out there who think all they need to do is sit on their backside and wait for people to come to them to buy the WHF award winners. This is no longer the 90's. Obviously I'm not going to give hints to those types of dealer (whi may be reading this) on how to improve their business, but you need to be active. These types of dealers will disappear, along with those working on very small profit margins. Once the field has narrowed, things will improve.

I've been in plenty of hi-fi shops and the service I've recieved in most of them is laughable.

The problem is, I think there's a distinct difference between how people think they should be treated in a shop, and reality. I'm not saying that people shouldn't be treated well, of course they should! But some people need to realise the difference between being treated well and taking the Michael. Think of it this way - when a customer has had a demo, maybe a projector. He's happy with the product he's chosen, he's got a competitive price with an online store, is that good service? Or is it better service when they ask for more discount on top of that? Is it better service when they asked about it being fitted, only to scoff because they don't want to pay the price that has been offered to them for it to be fitted? Asking for a discount on a screen because they don't want to spend a fortune on one? Asking for a 15m HDMI (worth £200 say) to be thrown in? Wanting someone to come round and calibrate it for free? The list goes on.

I am not clued in on the ins and outs of hi-fi retail but it would seem a new approach is needed to selling hi-fi rather than whinging about the Internet destroying your business.

Usually when people say retailer need a new approach, it usually means providing something new - for free. That's free to the customer, but not to the retailer.

But I agree, it would be nice to see some fresh approach. Time is usually an issue, unless you're overstaffed. And if you're overstaffed, you're not the sort of retailer who's onto a good thing about business models

Very well said. :clap:

 

[Frank Harvey]

Some good (and robust) points made on both sides of the argument, and thanks to David@FH (sorry I referred to you as Frank in a previous post but I'm sure I wont be the last!) for pointing out the practical definition of "distance selling", I hadn't realised that dealers had agreements in place only to sell to those that are "local" to them, and not pinch sales that really "belong" to other stores.

No problem

This is why I do this, to try and help people understand how things work. I don't do this to flame anyone, there'd be no point in that. If what I've said in this thread has helped one person understand something, anything, better, then it's been useful.

So I assume then, if a store has an online presence and has obligations not to sell to "distance" sellers, that they are the ones breaking their own agreement with their distributors of selling online to all and sundry? Didn't realise that. Interesting as I take a look at the SSAV web site, some products can be ordered online, but must be picked up from a store. So would this bypass DSR? And it gives no value to the consumer since (a) no DSR and (b) no instore advice/demo etc. So whats the point?

Not necesssarily. A retailer with no website can still have someone ring up, place an order for a non distance selling item, and have that item shipped to them. That's basically the same as ordering online.

Some manufacturers have allowed a 'click to buy' facility, whereby you can click and reserve an item, but it can't be mail ordered - you would have to go and collect it in store. This isn't classed as distance selling, as it's more or less the same as you ringing the dealer, ordering something over the phone, then you going to collect it.

I have bought some equipment online, but its only when I know exactly what I want, and its not normally that expensive. I understand that buying stuff this way, I take a risk. Just bought a Harmony 1100 remote from Logitech, I wanted this model and its was the cheapest price. A retail outlet would not have provided any more value to me, as I had made the decision without seeing it.

I agree there are some products that should be available freely online, and products like the remote you mention is fine in your situation. It does backfire a little bit when these sorts of products are so freely available online at silly prices that it's no longer worth a dealer keeping them in store, and you get people coming in asking for them, only for them to be disappointed they can't just buy one. I think that sort of situation does push some people away from shops and to order online.

When I mentioned earlier that threats like Best Buy and Tesco now seem to be neutralised, the only threat I now see is Amazon. But that's a whole other story

 

[Frank Harvey]

Why can't the likes of Sony Centres & Panasonic stores actually go back to their manufacturer & demand incentives for being loyal to their brand? Like offering exclusive 5 years manufacturer's warranty on TVs (at all times, not just during a promotion period) & 2-3 year warranty on blu ray players? Online stores just cannot compete with this.

This does happen, but Pana offer it to all their authorised dealers.

 

[Crocodile]

Where you said you live so far away from a dealer it isn't convenient for you to demo items and then told David you were going to come visit his store. Looks like a contradiction to me.

I'm sure I don't need to point out that a 300 mile round trip to listen to a range of speakers could hardly be called convenient by any measure. I could probably do it in less mileage by hunting out another dealer with a wide range of stock but if I'm going to do it, then I'd like to potentially show some loyalty to David who has always been helpful either on the forums or via e-mail.

Edited by mods - breach of House Rules.

Not sure there's really any point in carrying this on so probably best to draw a line under it. Close away Mods.

 

[sonycentre]

Very well said AV ROTH i could not have put it better myself but the bad news is this will always happen a lot of people really don't care.Ive learned to chill and not let it wind me up so much anymore.

I'm not surprised as dwindling sales at Sony centres, most of which is not in your hands at all.

1) You've hedged your bets on one brand, & your success largely depends on the brand's success. 2011 hasn't been a good year for Sony. Their TVs received a lot of negative publicity, & Panasonic came up with better blu-ray players. Obviously, it had an effect on your sales.

2) Few years ago, Sony enjoyed a brand appeal like no other. People wanted a "Sony TV". today, people want a "TV", & can't decide which brand. They want to compare in shops before deciding on the TV. Generally, they would stroll into Sony store, look at a few TVs, then go to next door Currys to look at other brands. Some of them get attracted to other brands, & others prefer the Sony. Currys has a price match guarantee, so a lot of them buy it from Currys, & only a handful come back to Sony centre. what can be done to improve this? Offer a price match guarantee maybe?

3) Obviously, you cannot compete with online stores as you have to maintain the shop. What can you offer more than Currys / comet / Sevenoaks.

But that is not the case Bigboss,we offer a 5 year warrenty on all our tv's two years on our vaio laptops and tablets we also have a good customer base-we can demo,the customer is always looked after from when he or she walks throught the door we are with them everystep of the way.And comet/currys will not price match us.I have been with the sony centre for nearly 10 years and this is not being offencsive to the multi-brand shops but they can never offer the kind of world class service that we give our customers-but then they sell every main stram brand known to man and that must be very hard to try and know all the products.it is very tough out there even certain on-line retailers are feeling it.

if people want to shop on-line then fine,its never going to stop but just think when there is no bricks and morter stores left and your sat at your pc/laptop/tablet/phone you are just buying a picture nothing more nothing less and thats the way it will go and the public will be the first ones to moan.

 

[Anonymous]

I have never hear such a good example as what i would call an FTW - Crocodile if you need to know what this is please take some time from your ever so precious life to go visit a dealer in Londons Tottenham Court Road who will gladly tell you what FTW is with a big smile on their face.

This try before you buy attitude will kill off the retailers, you may find it strange but they are there to make profit and not lose profit so someone like your good self can audition anything they feel fit and then simply box it up and send it back as you feel fit. My hat goes off to any retailer who does not get back to you as they will profit from doing so in the future.

Lets just hope you are in the minority as specialist Hi Fi retailers do not need customers like you to survive and for those of us who don't mind getting off our backsides and putting in the effort for something we like are not affected in the future by people with an attitude like yours.

If you would like to put me in the 'bad' list then i would feel honoured as you have a strange way of listing bad - mainly because it does not agree with your narrow minded approach to others business. And for the record i worked in Tottenham Court Road for five years for a retailer who did not sell online and the company now owns over 30 outlets, [edited by mods - please do not attack other members]

 

[The_Lhc]

And comet/currys will not price match us.

Oh come on now, that's not because of your ultra-competitive prices, that's because you don't sell the same models as anyone else (BDP-S363 anyone?), specifically so that you don't have to price match anyone else.

The reason why Sony Centres are dying is because they charge top dollar, always have done.

 

[ROTH AV]

I've read all these responses with great interest - some really insightful and challenging posts.

Just as a point of order - harveymt - I totally respect the fact that you disagree with what I have said and also agree with you entirely that there must be another way in which to retail/demonstrate hifi product - I'm just not sure in what form it should be. You're so right - it's a case of adapt or die, but how do we adapt and how should it be set up ? - it's the toughest question the industry faces right now (in my uninformed opinion).

The other posts on this thread also cover some really interesting territory.

I guess the only issue I have is the attempt by Crocodile to insult me personally from the point at which he/she initially responds "ROTH AV WROTE - RANT" right through to his/her last post. I don't really 'get' that - hiding behind a forum to sling insults is pretty funny but a little sad and I can only put this down to inadequate toilet training as a child.

I guess my only response is to offer to meet you face-to-face - maybe at What HiFi Towers (?!) so that we can discuss this issue and my obvious lack of understanding of 'THE FACTS' in a more adult manner. I'm happy to do so - maybe a group of people taken from this thread - made up of the two of us, the 'interested' parties and the retailers that have posted - and we could meet up for a little light lunch and a good chat about the issues raised ?

 

[sonycentre]

And comet/currys will not price match us.

Oh come on now, that's not because of your ultra-competitive prices, that's because you don't sell the same models as anyone else (BDP-S363 anyone?), specifically so that you don't have to price match anyone else.

The reason why Sony Centres are dying is because they charge top dollar, always have done.

The _Lhc sony centres are franchises but our prices have always been competative and we are owned by the same company that are super-fi.

 

[The_Lhc]

And comet/currys will not price match us.

Oh come on now, that's not because of your ultra-competitive prices, that's because you don't sell the same models as anyone else (BDP-S363 anyone?), specifically so that you don't have to price match anyone else.

The reason why Sony Centres are dying is because they charge top dollar, always have done.

The _Lhc sony centres are franchises but our prices have always been competative and we are owned by the same company that are super-fi.

If that's the case, then you're the only Sony Centre I've ever seen that could be described as competitive. Every other one I've been in in the last 20 years stuck rigidly to the RRP on everything, I was even told by one that Sony would not let them discount items.All bar one of those Sony Centres has now gone out of business incidentally (the one in Cribbs Causeway is the only one left anywhere near me).

 

[John Duncan]

I guess the only issue I have is the attempt by Crocodile to insult me personally

I can only put this down to inadequate toilet training as a child.

And like that - poof! The moral high ground was gone...

Let's keep it clean, please gentlemen, or I will have to lock it.

I guess my only response is to offer to meet you face-to-face - maybe at What HiFi Towers (?!) so that we can discuss this issue and my obvious lack of understanding of 'THE FACTS' in a more adult manner. I'm happy to do so - maybe a group of people taken from this thread - made up of the two of us, the 'interested' parties and the retailers that have posted - and we could meet up for a little light lunch and a good chat about the issues raised ?

That would make a more interesting Big Question - "Specialist hifi retailing - a dead duck?" - than the relative merits of different hard drives, certainly.

 

[John Duncan]

Mr.Duncan compares us to the States (are you still working in this industry?!).

I didn't really, I was saying that I think the 'buy/don't like/take back/repeat' cycle in the US is totally taking the mick. Though they do charge restocking fees, so maybe that covers their 'open box' costs.

I think with budget equipment mail order, that's fine, but mid-high end should be purchase in store only. Why? It should be heard. No one should be buying kit blind.

And of course, if Amazon started selling high-end kit on minimal margins, and that high end kit then became mid-range (or even budget), there goes the 'high end cachet' which those brands have spent decades building up. Or do you think that the manufacturers really have the consumers' best interests at heart?

 

[John Duncan]

(are you still working in this industry?!)

I'm not sure I ever did.

 

[TheHomeCinemaCentre]

[this is not being offencsive to the multi-brand shops but they can never offer the kind of world class service that we give our customers-

I think you will find that there are many multi brand outlets that actually do.

As an aisde online sales are not killing retail sales, retailers are killing themselves. As an industry we have no one to blame but ourselves. Customers like the OP are just using the market to their advantage - nothing wrong with that.

 

[John Duncan]

See, I *knew* this was an interesting conversation. How are retailers killing themselves , THCC?

 

[laserman16]

but our prices have always been competative .

Not sure who with, certainly not Tescos or Richer Sounds.

We used to have a Sonycentre in our town until very recently and a 5 minute walk could take me to another store that was cheaper on Sony products, plus stocked other brands as well to give me a comparison in performance etc.

Not Currys or Comet BTW.

 

[Amadeus1756]

Probaly, in much the same way that the discussion of streamers should be in Computer Based Music & discussion of DACs should be in their own forum too.

I'm genuinely interested why you're so aggressive towards everyone? :O

 

[Amadeus1756]

The reason why Sony Centres are dying is because they charge top dollar, always have done.

I actually feel a little bad about saying this, but I can assure you SonyCentre that it's not aimed at you at all.

I stopped buying Sony equipment for 2 reasons:

1) The staff in the Sony Centre (in Reading) were incredibly snotty towards me (I can be quite scruffy but that never bothered shops like John Lewis and Sevenoaks HiFi and I have a lot of disposable income)

2) I bought a VCR for > £500. Just over a year of light use later, it stopped ejecting tapes. I took it to a repair shop and the guy took it apart and could see that a little piece of plastic had snapped. The rest of this piece of plastic was screwed to a metal frame. The guy said that almost certainly he'd be able to order a replacement piece of plastic but found out Sony would only sell him the whole metal frame - > £350.

Having said that, my wife bought me a PS3 and I'm amazed how good it is - constant updates to functionality.

 

[Frank Harvey]

(are you still working in this industry?!)

I'm not sure I ever did.

Fair enough. For some reason I thought you worked for WHF. Or did, as most seem to have now.

 

[Crocodile]

I'm genuinely interested why you're so aggressive towards everyone? :O

I'm genuinely interested in how you can see agression in a simple statement of fact?

 

[Frank Harvey]

See, I *knew* this was an interesting conversation. How are retailers killing themselves , THCC?

I've mentioned this before, but you've obviously not picked up on it. The market is evolving, has been since the advent of the Internet, and some retailers are using that. We've had discussions in store with a few reps about this subject, and we've told them that's hat there's another aspect this is killing the market too dealers too. Although, I'm not mentioning that one in public

 

[Frank Harvey]

I didn't really, I was saying that I think the 'buy/don't like/take back/repeat' cycle in the US is totally taking the mick. Though they do charge restocking fees, so maybe that covers their 'open box' costs.

Our Government sees to that that is illegal in this country. You can add the Government to the list.

And of course, if Amazon started selling high-end kit on minimal margins, and that high end kit then became mid-range (or even budget), there goes the 'high end cachet' which those brands have spent decades building up. Or do you think that the manufacturers really have the consumers' best interests at heart?

They wouldn't be able to unless all retailers disappeared. And if they did, the manufacturer can sell to Amazon at whatever price they wanted, which would probably be different to what a dealer pays now.

As for your last question, I'm going to refrain from answering that one on a public forum.

 

[John Duncan]

(are you still working in this industry?!)

I'm not sure I ever did.

Fair enough. For some reason I thought you worked for WHF. Or did, as most seem to have now.

Well, I was part of the team that built and managed this website, and sat about ten yards from Mr C, Mr E and Ms N, but I'm not sure that counts as working in the industry. I think the closest I got was this:

http://www.whathifi.com/blog/none-more-black-the-new-pure-evoke-1s-marshall-radio

(when they ran out of real journalists)

and this:

http://www.whathifi.com/blog/diary-of-a-blu-ray-virgin

when I blagged some free stuff. Hey, maybe I *did* work in the industry after all! :-D

 

[John Duncan]

As for your last question, I'm going to refrain from answering that one on a public forum.

Mail me! :-D

 

[GK]

What is the point to demo hi-fi in the shop if common advise is that hi-fi need burn-in period. Do not like sound? Give it a couple weeks!