harveymt said:
We're clearly going to different dealers then, I've walked into shops, told them up front I'm not really intending to make a purchase at the time and still been given time and facilities to listen to items. Most of the hi-fi dealers round here have a large variety of manufacturers, with plenty of display items, so there's very little restriction in what you can demo.
This is a chicken and egg situation isn't it? Obviously if there are no high street retailers left then of course people will be buying online. But that's not a high street I particularly want to see, especially for something as high value and subjective as hi-fi. As far as books are concerned I generally know what I'm going to like before I buy it, so if I had to buy online it wouldn't be that much of a disadvantage but hi-fi? No, I want somewhere I can go, I don't want to take a chance on something like that and I don't want to have to faff around with re-boxing things and sending them back if I don't like them, what a ball-ache that is! Just give me a shop, I don't care where it is, high street or out of town, that part doesn't matter but I won't buy hi-fi online.
I recall Stereophile discussed this a few months back, as hi-fi dealers in the USA have all but gone in favour of Best Buy etc. Essentially, there's been a return of countystate fairs and shows where the punters can hear lots of systems from dealers and also end-user bake-offs.
Do you notice how some shop-keeps get shirty if you scan their stock's bar-code with a price-finder app? TBH, I'd be OK with a 10% premium over Amazon if their sales and service was tip-top.
Do you notice how some shop-keeps get shirty if you scan their stock's bar-code with a price-finder app? TBH, I'd be OK with a 10% premium over Amazon if their sales and service was tip-top.
sonycentre
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Thank you The_lhc someone is talking some sence.I would never buy a tv or any electrical item on-line always like to try and keep things local Even with blu-ray films and cds i want to buy them and i want them now not in 3-5 days time.the odd time i may buy some blu-ray/cds online is if i cant buy from a shop.i did post a couple of deals via play.com and amazon.co.uk for a few films that were on offer for the 2 for £10.00.as thay dont seem to be in hmv. 
hoopsontoast said:
Manufacturer's products are currently sharing shelf space in hi-fi shops so what's the difference with sharing shelf space in a demo facility set up by the manufacturers? A few manufacturers together lowers the cost.
The point is manufacturers will sell their product through shops. These shops are dying out due to pressure from on-line sales and lower disposable income. No shops means no sales. If they want to survive then they have to do something differently. Whether that be providing demo facilities or, as someone else mentioned, encouraging more hi-fi shows or by some other method.
So you have described a 'Distributor'.....
And the manufacturers will demo in a demo facility, with their competitors, but point the customer to a shop to buy the product that they have just demo'd?
And the manufacturers will demo in a demo facility, with their competitors, but point the customer to a shop to buy the product that they have just demo'd?
Frank Harvey
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Because of how I'm usually treated when I give a little insight from this side of the industry, it's something I said I'd never do again. But after reading some snippets on here, I want to reply. But, I'll be being very careful. Maybe even a little cryptic.
It's not really internet selling that's against the dealer agreements with manufacturers, it's distance selling. What you did constitutes distance selling, so your retailer broke the rules.
Now, I appreciate this goes on. We know certain retailers do it, but proving it is an entirely different thing altogether, so not much can be done. But what about all those retailers out there who stick to the rules? There may be a Leema dealer in let's say, Manchester. What if people from Manchester start ordering their Leema products from an unscrupulous dealer in Scunthorpe? The Scunthorpe dealer gets to build a healthy Leema account, for which they're pleased, unknown to them that this dealer is breaking the agreement he signed with them. But Leema aren't too happy with this dealer in Manchester because he's not selling many Leema products, so they think he's not supporting their brand. They may close his account. If this happens with a few brands, he could lose his store, and Manchester lose what could be a good dealer.
How can situations like this be avoided? Restricting distance selling. That is the only way. If someone wants to drive from Manchester to Scunthorpe to buy their Leema, that's fine, but if you want to ring up and order it, that's a different story. A few manufacturers are now seeling via their website on a 'click to buy' basis, so when someone orders a product via the manufacturer, that sale is then passed on to the customer's nearest dealer. That's the fairest way to 'distance sell', or 'buy over the internet'.
Obviously there are those that feel that you should be able to buy what you want, where you want. While I appreciate that belief, firslty, there's what I've said above. Mr.Duncan compares us to the States (are you still working in this industry?!). The US is a huge place, with some towns hundreds of miles away, sometimes the length of our tiny island. The US needs distance selling. We don't, although the more dealers that go out of business, the more that might change. I think with budget equipment mail order, that's fine, but mid-high end should be purchase in store only. Why? It should be heard. No one should be buying kit blind. And if people get into the habit of buying kit worth £1k, £2k or more mail order, stores are going to have some expensive returns and refunds, which again is going to jeopardise their future. I think it would be fair to say that those who are at the higher end stage of hi-fi buying are actually more fussy about their purchases.
So personally speaking (and like Mr.Roth, this is my own personal view), i don't think distance selling should be allowed on certain products. If I wasn't in this industry, I wouldn't mind travelling to hear what I want to hear.
There are stores in this country that are trying to provide a wide range of equipment for people to hear, but because of the general decline on the high street, not every area or even every retailer is in a position to offer this. I used to think we would go the way of America (not out of choice or necessity) in that budget products will be available online, and there would be high end boutiques springing up, with all the products inbetween available via large supermarkets and Best Buys. But now, with the demise of Best Buy, and Tesco in trouble (who were almost set to take over the world at one point), I can no longer see that happening. Although what I can see, is more dealers going to the wall (I feel there are actually too many for the sizr of the market), and the sensible dealers who keep their heads being in a position to be able to offer more products for demo, as their competition fall around their feet. So we'll end up with fewer dealers, but more choice. You might need to travel, but that is the best thing for all of us.
plastic penguin said:In the real world you'll always have this problem. The only product I've ever purchased online was the Leema. Actually that's not strictly true. I phoned them and ordered it for home delivery...
As the other poster suggested: Always best, IMHO, to do it the old fashioned way, and *** into a local high street dealer (or nearest dealer) and that way you're almost guranteed customer satisfaction.
It's not really internet selling that's against the dealer agreements with manufacturers, it's distance selling. What you did constitutes distance selling, so your retailer broke the rules.
Now, I appreciate this goes on. We know certain retailers do it, but proving it is an entirely different thing altogether, so not much can be done. But what about all those retailers out there who stick to the rules? There may be a Leema dealer in let's say, Manchester. What if people from Manchester start ordering their Leema products from an unscrupulous dealer in Scunthorpe? The Scunthorpe dealer gets to build a healthy Leema account, for which they're pleased, unknown to them that this dealer is breaking the agreement he signed with them. But Leema aren't too happy with this dealer in Manchester because he's not selling many Leema products, so they think he's not supporting their brand. They may close his account. If this happens with a few brands, he could lose his store, and Manchester lose what could be a good dealer.
How can situations like this be avoided? Restricting distance selling. That is the only way. If someone wants to drive from Manchester to Scunthorpe to buy their Leema, that's fine, but if you want to ring up and order it, that's a different story. A few manufacturers are now seeling via their website on a 'click to buy' basis, so when someone orders a product via the manufacturer, that sale is then passed on to the customer's nearest dealer. That's the fairest way to 'distance sell', or 'buy over the internet'.
Obviously there are those that feel that you should be able to buy what you want, where you want. While I appreciate that belief, firslty, there's what I've said above. Mr.Duncan compares us to the States (are you still working in this industry?!). The US is a huge place, with some towns hundreds of miles away, sometimes the length of our tiny island. The US needs distance selling. We don't, although the more dealers that go out of business, the more that might change. I think with budget equipment mail order, that's fine, but mid-high end should be purchase in store only. Why? It should be heard. No one should be buying kit blind. And if people get into the habit of buying kit worth £1k, £2k or more mail order, stores are going to have some expensive returns and refunds, which again is going to jeopardise their future. I think it would be fair to say that those who are at the higher end stage of hi-fi buying are actually more fussy about their purchases.
So personally speaking (and like Mr.Roth, this is my own personal view), i don't think distance selling should be allowed on certain products. If I wasn't in this industry, I wouldn't mind travelling to hear what I want to hear.
There are stores in this country that are trying to provide a wide range of equipment for people to hear, but because of the general decline on the high street, not every area or even every retailer is in a position to offer this. I used to think we would go the way of America (not out of choice or necessity) in that budget products will be available online, and there would be high end boutiques springing up, with all the products inbetween available via large supermarkets and Best Buys. But now, with the demise of Best Buy, and Tesco in trouble (who were almost set to take over the world at one point), I can no longer see that happening. Although what I can see, is more dealers going to the wall (I feel there are actually too many for the sizr of the market), and the sensible dealers who keep their heads being in a position to be able to offer more products for demo, as their competition fall around their feet. So we'll end up with fewer dealers, but more choice. You might need to travel, but that is the best thing for all of us.
Hmm, book a day off work, pack your speakers, source & cabling up in the back of the car, drive to the dealer, find somewhere close to park, hope it isn't raining as you unload, connect it all up, have a listen of how it sounds in their premises rather than your own room, take it all to bits, reload the car, drive home, unload the car & reconnect everything.The_Lhc said:
Place item back in the box it came in, tape it up, book courier.The_Lhc said:
Faff you say?
Which is why I said in my last e-mail that I was probably going to have to make the 300 mile round trip to see you & your range of stock after Bristol.FrankHarveyHiFi said:
Crocodile said:
Book another day off work to wait for the courier, then find out they won't refund the money or the cost of sending it back... I'd rather have a day off and spend it out of the house than sitting around waiting (same goes for the weekend as well, before you say it). People have different priorities.
Crocodile said:
Just a guess......
Weigh up effort, cost and profit. They have to make money at the end of the day.
So you work in RETAIL in a STORE & yet you get you "fair share" of people like me who have an issue with an ONLINE retailer or two & DSR?sonycentre said:
:wall: indeed.
Crocodile said:Which is why I said in my last e-mail that I was probably going to have to make the 300 mile round trip to see you & your range of stock after Bristol.FrankHarveyHiFi said:
Now you seem to be contradicting yourself. Unless you're intending to visit a dealer for a demo and then order the item online? But nobody would do that surely?
Crocodile said:
Just a guess, but some shops sell both in store and online and even, mail order.
I believe that he works in a Sony Centre, where you can buy online, in shop and mail order through your LOCAL Sony Centre Dealer.
No need to book a day off work for a courier. If there's no-one else in the house or you can't leave it with a neighbour or have it collected from work then simply drop it off at the depot.The_Lhc said:
Part of the reason for the post was to highlight that there ARE online retailers out there who you can buy from in confidence that they will refund. Superfi being the case in point I highlighted. They won't refund return shipping as they are not obliged to by DSR, nor would I expect it. But using your comaprison of half a tank of fuel verus the cost of a courier, in most cases the courier will be significantly cheaper.
Please quote where I've either contradicted myself or even hinted at doing the latter. If I want to listen to a RANGE of kit then I'm willing to travel to a dealer who stocks the FULL range of what I want to hear. No need to do that for a single item.The_Lhc said:
Top tip for you, have a look at my posts in previous threads where I've severely criticised those that abuse dealer facilities & then buy online.
Frank Harvey
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harveymt said:
Your suggestion wouldn't work. Many manufacturers aren't going to invest in joint premises, as many of them are in competition. Then it needs staffing. You know have a shop. Manufacturers already have retailers to offer demo facilities. Which dealers manufacturers choose to go into is up to them.
There are a number of dealers out there who think all they need to do is sit on their backside and wait for people to come to them to buy the WHF award winners. This is no longer the 90's. Obviously I'm not going to give hints to those types of dealer (whi may be reading this) on how to improve their business, but you need to be active. These types of dealers will disappear, along with those working on very small profit margins. Once the field has narrowed, things will improve.
The problem is, I think there's a distinct difference between how people think they should be treated in a shop, and reality. I'm not saying that people shouldn't be treated well, of course they should! But some people need to realise the difference between being treated well and taking the Michael. Think of it this way - when a customer has had a demo, maybe a projector. He's happy with the product he's chosen, he's got a competitive price with an online store, is that good service? Or is it better service when they ask for more discount on top of that? Is it better service when they asked about it being fitted, only to scoff because they don't want to pay the price that has been offered to them for it to be fitted? Asking for a discount on a screen because they don't want to spend a fortune on one? Asking for a 15m HDMI (worth £200 say) to be thrown in? Wanting someone to come round and calibrate it for free? The list goes on.
Usually when people say retailer need a new approach, it usually means providing something new - for free. That's free to the customer, but not to the retailer.
But I agree, it would be nice to see some fresh approach. Time is usually an issue, unless you're overstaffed. And if you're overstaffed, you're not the sort of retailer who's onto a good thing about business models
bigboss
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sonycentre said:
I'm not surprised as dwindling sales at Sony centres, most of which is not in your hands at all.
1) You've hedged your bets on one brand, & your success largely depends on the brand's success. 2011 hasn't been a good year for Sony. Their TVs received a lot of negative publicity, & Panasonic came up with better blu-ray players. Obviously, it had an effect on your sales.
2) Few years ago, Sony enjoyed a brand appeal like no other. People wanted a "Sony TV". today, people want a "TV", & can't decide which brand. They want to compare in shops before deciding on the TV. Generally, they would stroll into Sony store, look at a few TVs, then go to next door Currys to look at other brands. Some of them get attracted to other brands, & others prefer the Sony. Currys has a price match guarantee, so a lot of them buy it from Currys, & only a handful come back to Sony centre. what can be done to improve this? Offer a price match guarantee maybe?
3) Obviously, you cannot compete with online stores as you have to maintain the shop. What can you offer more than Currys / comet / Sevenoaks?
Some good (and robust) points made on both sides of the argument, and thanks to David@FH (sorry I referred to you as Frank in a previous post but I'm sure I wont be the last!) for pointing out the practical definition of "distance selling", I hadn't realised that dealers had agreements in place only to sell to those that are "local" to them, and not pinch sales that really "belong" to other stores.
So I assume then, if a store has an online presence and has obligations not to sell to "distance" sellers, that they are the ones breaking their own agreement with their distributors of selling online to all and sundry? Didn't realise that. Interesting as I take a look at the SSAV web site, some products can be ordered online, but must be picked up from a store. So would this bypass DSR? And it gives no value to the consumer since (a) no DSR and (b) no instore advice/demo etc. So whats the point?
I have bought some equipment online, but its only when I know exactly what I want, and its not normally that expensive. I understand that buying stuff this way, I take a risk. Just bought a Harmony 1100 remote from Logitech, I wanted this model and its was the cheapest price. A retail outlet would not have provided any more value to me, as I had made the decision without seeing it.
I used to deal with KJ West One, which from Guildford is a bit of a trek. They would let me audition in store to narrow down my likely purchase, then with prior arrangment, I could take their demo units home over the weekend after leaving a credit card deposit. Yes, it was a faff with packing/unpacking/travelling etc, but this would typically be a pair of speakers, or amp, not the whole setup. The outlay was not insignificant so the hassle and cost of travel etc was worth it. Gave me the best of both worlds - in store advice, and the benefit of a home demo.
Guildford Audio is now very convenient for me, they're model is different as they don't have a store. Demo is borrowing equipment to try in your house. I guess Trevor would accompany equipment to strangers, but once trust is built up then there is more freedom.
So that's two business models I guess you'd call them, which work both for the customer (me) and the retailer in current times. The solution is in retailers adjusting their business model to meet the needs of the customers they actually want.
So I assume then, if a store has an online presence and has obligations not to sell to "distance" sellers, that they are the ones breaking their own agreement with their distributors of selling online to all and sundry? Didn't realise that. Interesting as I take a look at the SSAV web site, some products can be ordered online, but must be picked up from a store. So would this bypass DSR? And it gives no value to the consumer since (a) no DSR and (b) no instore advice/demo etc. So whats the point?
I have bought some equipment online, but its only when I know exactly what I want, and its not normally that expensive. I understand that buying stuff this way, I take a risk. Just bought a Harmony 1100 remote from Logitech, I wanted this model and its was the cheapest price. A retail outlet would not have provided any more value to me, as I had made the decision without seeing it.
I used to deal with KJ West One, which from Guildford is a bit of a trek. They would let me audition in store to narrow down my likely purchase, then with prior arrangment, I could take their demo units home over the weekend after leaving a credit card deposit. Yes, it was a faff with packing/unpacking/travelling etc, but this would typically be a pair of speakers, or amp, not the whole setup. The outlay was not insignificant so the hassle and cost of travel etc was worth it. Gave me the best of both worlds - in store advice, and the benefit of a home demo.
Guildford Audio is now very convenient for me, they're model is different as they don't have a store. Demo is borrowing equipment to try in your house. I guess Trevor would accompany equipment to strangers, but once trust is built up then there is more freedom.
So that's two business models I guess you'd call them, which work both for the customer (me) and the retailer in current times. The solution is in retailers adjusting their business model to meet the needs of the customers they actually want.
Crocodile said:
If the reason of the post is to highlight the difference between retailers both in cost and distance selling stance then isn't this thread in the wrong section...... Shouldn't it be in " there's a shop near me", or " there's a shop not near me "
Probaly, in much the same way that the discussion of streamers should be in Computer Based Music & discussion of DACs should be in their own forum too.moon said:
Frank Harvey
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harveymt said:
Manufacturers using dealer's demonstration facilities and floorspace costs them nothing. Why would they want to start psneind money on their own store facilities that they'll need to run themselves, even with shared costs?
The manufacturer's stores wouldn't fair any better. Existing stores that are competitive are getting business, and there's plenty of them if you Google. They're in competition with each other, so feel free to take advantage of that and grab some bargains that are so stupid that it defies logic. But I'll be damned if I ever want quality equipment to take the same route. It might initially be good for prices and availability, but over a period of time, when the manufacturer and retailer aren't making enough money, that product's quality will be diluted. That would be the death of high quality products.
Hi-fi shows. Do you know how much it costs for manufacturers to take part in those? There's dozens every year, worldwide. Maybe more. This is one cost a manufacturer has to take into account when selling it's products to us because it's a fortune. I think if you knew what that cost was, you'd be stunned to silence, and wonder how they do so many shows a year. I was going to set up a show in the Midlands, because there isn't anything in the Midlands, they're always miles away. But after making initial enquiries, I actually started to feel bad for the manufacturers. It'd be adding another show to their calendar, having 5-10 staff or more working yet another weekend away from their families, only for people on forums to slag them off because the room sounded rubbish or the staff weren't all happy smiles for 3-5 days straight! Even though most would class it as a career improvement, I don't think I'd want to be a rep...there's a flip side to everything
bigboss
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For the manufacturers' stores to succeed, they should offer something which others cannot. Only then will they succeed, or have a powerful brand appeal like Apple's.
Why can't the likes of Sony Centres & Panasonic stores actually go back to their manufacturer & demand incentives for being loyal to their brand? Like offering exclusive 5 years manufacturer's warranty on TVs (at all times, not just during a promotion period) & 2-3 year warranty on blu ray players? Online stores just cannot compete with this.
Why can't the likes of Sony Centres & Panasonic stores actually go back to their manufacturer & demand incentives for being loyal to their brand? Like offering exclusive 5 years manufacturer's warranty on TVs (at all times, not just during a promotion period) & 2-3 year warranty on blu ray players? Online stores just cannot compete with this.
Crocodile said:
Where you said you live so far away from a dealer it isn't convenient for you to demo items and then told David you were going to come visit his store. Looks like a contradiction to me.
There is a need to do that if you want to know what the item sounds like or if you discover you don't like what it sounds like and want to try alternatives without running into the problems you detailed at the start of the thread.
Top tip for you, have a look at my posts in previous threads where I've severely criticised those that abuse dealer facilities & then buy online.
Fair enough, like I said, nobody would do that surely?
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