The DAC scam

[Jasonovich]

Unfortunately, you need to add taxes and death to that 🤣

Yep! 🙂

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

I would say "the masses" is a good catch-all description. You know what I mean, surely?

I think the term massively elevates the reach of this sort of person and the interest that the wider world has in such matters, so I think the distinction matters.

 

[GroeneLeeuw]

Many are only a level above "influencers", who are a group of people I utterly despise, as they're just people who get paid or get free stuff for making a video about something. It's worse than product placement in movies. Some people stir the **** on social media via the written word, but nobody takes notice of that, so they take to video, as it's quick, cheap, and easy to spread your agenda - and they can get paid for it too! You can tell people's agendas by the nature of their words. It doesn't matter how many times a subjective statement is repeated, it doesn't make it true, it's like he's trying to pound it into everyone's heads. Say something with enough conviction and people will believe it. Throw in a few swear words and it appeals to the masses, and shows you're not some uptight corporate.

And I haven't got time to get into the whole "transparent" thing...I'm off to Audio Show Delux.... 🤣

Who´s paying a guy to say all dacs sound the same or so similar you´re a fool if you spend much money buying one?

 

[Witterings]

Listening is, I agree, the only way to judge any hifi component. However, A/B testing is susceptible to human foibles unless it is double blind. This is why all scientific tests are carried out double blind. You can't trust human perceptions!

One of the key issues is "expectation bias". If you expect an outcome you are more likely to report that outcome. None of us can avoid this. We have surely all experienced a time when you never see some event then it appears in the news and you see it all the time. This is why medical trials are double blind. If a patient knows they are getting a new medication they are more likely to report that it works! Even then, in most trials, about 25% of those given a placebo, usually a sugar pill, report that it improves symptoms.

Years ago during a similar debate on here the then editor of What Hi FI said they would never take part in a double blind test. I wonder why! 🙂

I was a complete sceptic on DAC's until November last year and erred towards the "it's just 1's & 0's" consensus but because I had no real experience of trying many wasn't as outspoken to go into threads about them, telling people they were wrong.

I kept hearing people say there is a difference so eventually relented and thought I've got to find out for myself ... if so many people believe it there's no smoke without fire.
I also didn't WANT to spend any more money on HiFi equipment but when I 1st plugged in the Chord I could instantly hear the difference in soundstage width I DIDN'T NEED A BLIND TEST TO HEAR IT ....... seriously, you'd have a real hearing issue not to notice it.
I also didn't want to move from the WiiM / Amazon Eco system to Bluesound as I their App and lack of compatibility with Amazon was a complete PITA for me and also meant I was forced to movge to Tidal.

My "BIAS" you refer to was:
Stay with WiiM streamers (I own seven of them). - no expense
Not buy a Bluesound Nano - expense
Not but a new DAC - expense

I have completely gone against what my bias, preference and convenience was .... you don't do that without reason.

As I sugeested in one of my earlier posts , how about you share with us your experience and which DAC's you've tested extensively and by that I don't mean a demo in a music shop .... I mean having a home trial for at least 3 days and able to do instant A/B testing for at least 4 / 5 hours and which you ere comparing them aganst.
Please also share how you volume matched them, how you were able to instantly switch from one to another and what your music source is and how you were able to get it across 2 units at the same time.

 

[Witterings]

Who´s paying a guy to say all dacs sound the same or so similar you´re a fool if you spend much money buying one?

Youtube .... people make videos that attract lots of hits which brings visitors to youtube who sell advertising, the more people visiting the site, the higher their advertising costs so increases their revenue and if you sign up for it, they share a small percentage of that with whoever posts the videos.
It's well known that contrarian / outspoken videos get more hits than vanilla ones.
The person posting the video can then promote a product within the video and the same principle, the more hits they get, the more they get paid to promote he product they're plugging.

 

[Dave_]

Youtube .... people make videos that attract lots of hits which brings visitors to youtube who sell advertising, the more people visiting the site, the higher their advertising costs so increases their revenue and if you sign up for it, they share a small percentage of that with whoever posts the videos.
It's well known that contrarian / outspoken videos get more hits than vanilla ones.
The person posting the video can then promote a product within the video and the same principle, the more hits they get, the more they get paid to promote he product they're plugging.

I just looked at his YouTube Channel.

He only has 22k subscribers, has only posted 37 videos in the little over a year he's been a member, many of his videos have less than 10k views, a few have 50/60k and a handful over a 100k

Anyone that thinks a channel of that size is earning anything other than a pittance in YT ad revenue is utterly clueless, and that's assuming he's even reached the 4000 watch hours required to be eligible for monetization in the first place.

 

[Witterings]

Years ago during a similar debate on here the then editor of What Hi FI said they would never take part in a double blind test. I wonder why!

Apologies for another post .... realised I didn't address this in previous reply.

If you read reviews in magazines, they're most often not comparing products and saying one is better than the other as they're both potential customers and the one that's likely to come out worse off may cancel advertising with the magazine so instead discuss the product under review,

They may sometimes refer to ... competition at this price range is X,Y and Z but the chances are, they're not favouring one of the other, simply listing some alternatives.

 

[Witterings]

I just looked at his YouTube Channel.

He only has 22k subscribers, has only posted 37 videos in the little over a year he's been a member, many of his videos have less than 10k views, a few have 50/60k and a handful over a 100k

Anyone that thinks a channel of that size is earning anything other than a pittance in YT ad revenue is utterly clueless....

Hopefully people are seeing through him and that trend contiunes and he'll disappear ... I've made / posted zero videos on youtube in 20 years so his 37 in one year is actually quite a lot but his content isn't good enough to attract the number of visitors he'd hoped for.

 

[Dave_]

Hopefully people are seeing through him and that trend contiunes and he'll disappear ... I've made / posted zero videos on youtube in 20 years so his 37 in one year is actually quite a lot but his content isn't good enough to attract the number of visitors he'd hoped for.

YouTube is full of content that is of little or no interest to me, so I simply dont watch it. I don't wish it's creators would disappear though...

 

[Al ears]

He has some facts and figures to back up his opinion. You are just someone with an opinion.

Someone who listens to music delivered by a complete system, and yes that's how I arrive at my opinion.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

Apologies for another post .... realised I didn't address this in previous reply.

If you read reviews in magazines, they're most often not comparing products and saying one is better than the other as they're both potential customers and the one that's likely to come out worse off may cancel advertising with the magazine so instead discuss the product under review,

They may sometimes refer to ... competition at this price range is X,Y and Z but the chances are, they're not favouring one of the other, simply listing some alternatives.

They do have awards once a year though, favouring one out of the others 😀

 

[manicm]

I'm going to throw a spanner in the works and do some stirring:

Why are mainstream UK/European and some US/Canadian manufacturers of DACs behind the times? I'm talking Cambridge/NAD etc etc.

From what I now glean over the past 2 years is that optical/coaxial should be retired like video composite/RCA was years ago. They are now clearly inferior audio interfaces to USB and the increasingly prevalent I2S. These digital audio inputs and outputs should become ubiquitous now.

The emerging Chinese/Koreans/US makers are leading the charge, while the likes of Cambridge are only now catching up to HDMI ARC as a convenience factor.

I for one am delighted the new GBP700 Audiolab 6000Mk2 has HDMI ARC, and an upgraded ESS DAC chip at least. This fight is hotting up.

 

[Witterings]

From what I now glean over the past 2 years is that optical/coaxial should be retired like video composite/RCA was years ago. They are now clearly inferior audio interfaces to USB and the increasingly prevalent I2S. These digital audio inputs and outputs should become ubiquitous now.

I tested the Optical / Coax out on both the WiiM Ultra and the Bluesoudn Nano vs using the USB out on both of them and there certainly seemed to be a fairly significant uplift in quality with both using USB .... it was like somone took the cloak off.
I think I was most surprised with the Nanoas that always seemed to have the edge on SQ compared to the Ultra.

I don't peronally know enough about it but is that because it's then using a better clock in the DAC or is it bacause USB is "superior" for some other reason.

 

[manicm]

I tested the Optical / Coax out on both the WiiM Ultra and the Bluesoudn Nano vs using the USB out on both of them and there certainly seemed to be a fairly significant uplift in quality with both using USB .... it was like somone took the cloak off.
I think I was most surprised with the Nanoas that always seemed to have the edge on SQ compared to the Ultra.

I don't peronally know enough about it but is that because it's then using a better clock in the DAC or is it bacause USB is "superior" for some other reason.

I too won't claim to be an expert, but in 99% of DAC equipped components coaxial is limited to 24/192. and with today's oversampling technology it's simply not enough.

 

[Gray]

..... I'm not fit to judge something I don't have personal experience of.

Me neither.
But I've got a feeling that you may be judging the Khadas Toneboard by its appearance. It's actually as much of a standalone DAC as any other (2 input) DAC, but never mind.

And please note that, when it comes to DACs, I am not a naysayer.
I am not somebody that says they all sound the same.
I know they do not.
As it happens, I have had DACs costing £600 - £800 on home loan - for extensive comparative evaluations.
As I said, have not heard the Chord Qutest but I'm glad you're happy with it.

 

[nopiano]

The same could be said of every hifi dealer/salesperson.

I've never met one who's been upfront or transparent about how much profit/commission they're earning from any given component incidentally....

I don’t suppose you tell them your salary either, or do you? Are you trying to suggest the most profitable lines are the ones that sales folks encourage you to hear?

What is profitable, is accessories. Hence the luxury priced ‘audiophile’ cable loom, which can add significantly to the profit on a system. But that’s no different to the car dealer selling paint protection, alloy wheel insurance, or finance.

 

[Witterings]

But I've got a feeling that you may be judging the Khadas Toneboard by its appearance. It's actually as much of a standalone DAC as any other (2 input) DAC, but never mind.

I didn't judge it on it's appearance at all, I questioned what you were using it for any why .... i.e. was it better than the DAC in your computer (if that's what it's connected to) and was that the reason you bought it.
I'm personally looking for something that works / uplifts the sound from my PC so I was actually considering one as an option for myself after you mentioned it.

You also seemed to be inferring from your original post that you only need to spend £100 max on a DAC and it tops out after that .... I questioned that and said if your £89 DAC was better than your £2 built into your PC and is obviously more expensive, why should the £100 be where it tops out at.

Honestly, go back, re-read what you posted and the inference therein and my response and I'm glad you're tring some others, it's taken me 2.5 years to get to a stage where I'm completely happy with my whole system ... it seems this hobby / addiction is all about trial and error which can be incredibly frustrating at times.

 

[ToppingSMSL]

I see people are still attacking the youtuber for being a youtuber rather than focusing on the points he raises.

 

[Gray]

I'm personally looking for something that works / uplifts the sound from my PC

Surely the Qutest can somehow do that job for you as well.

(And the point of my original post was to inform you that not everybody that doesn't try or buy a Qutest, can't afford to do so.
People aren't (necessarily) jealous - it's just that they may have bought a good sub £100 DAC*, heard how good it was - and wondered why they needed to spend 10x more....that's all).

*The Khadas is used as is in the March DAC1 and the chip it uses is what's used in the Cyrus XR range - so it may not be as inferior as you think the price suggests 👍

 

[ToppingSMSL]

If you want a DAC for your PC I think a cheap Topping or SMSL is the way to go. I have a Topping D50 III and it's good, it can do EQ on the USB input. Only thing I don't like about this model is the display is very small and hard to read from any distance.

You can get cheaper ones, some with a nice orange LED display.

 

[Jasonovich]

If you want a DAC for your PC I think a cheap Topping or SMSL is the way to go. I have a Topping D50 III and it's good, it can do EQ on the USB input. Only thing I don't like about this model is the display is very small and hard to read from any distance.

You can get cheaper ones, some with a nice orange LED display.

If you want to do cheap with big display, there are other alternatives to Topping and SMSL.
I believe Fosi has their own DAC, there's WiiM range and FiiO's K11 DAC, comes in two versions chipset or R2R £115 and £135 respectively. A choice of black, silver and Red!!

FiiO K11 R2R Desktop-DSD-Dekodierung All-in-One-Kopfhörer-Leistungsverstärker, benutzerdefinierter NOS/OS RCA koaxialer optischer PCM384kHz/24Bit - AliExpress 44

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