That old chestnut again... but at least it's not a thread about speaker cables!

[robdmarsh]

So in my quest to replace (and improve) my beloved Marantz m-cr603 I got a good deal on a Denon pma 800ne, and after an indifferent start I now love it. Out of the box it sounded flat and a bit sleepy - I could tell that the elements of good sound were there but it sounded like it was playing behind a veil. By the second day, having left it in standby over night, the sound had tightened up quite a bit, there was greater separation in instrument lines and voices were sounding fuller and less grainy and I found it difficult to tear myself away so I left it playing all night on low volume. But it was on the third day that the sound really started to hang together as a coherent whole and to resemble the sweetness of the Marantz but with greater transparency and muscular delivery.
So was I imagining these changes and was it my ears that were getting used to the sound of the new amplifier or were the components really bedding in and causing real changes to the sound?
Fantastic amplifier btw!

 

[Gray]

So was I imagining these changes and was it my ears that were getting used to the sound

I've underlined the option that I think is (a minimum of) 90% more likely
(Brain adapting to a different presentation).

 

[robdmarsh]

I've underlined the option that I think is (a minimum of) 90% more likely
(Brain adapting to a different presentation).

Ok, so you're definitely in the doubter camp. But have you never experienced anything similar? It's strange that there are so many reports of similarly perceived changes. I've heard a myriad of explanations including the more cynical rationale that it's a kind of psychological buyer's remorse in reverse or in other words that your ears (and brain) work to justify your purchase. But in this case, if I hadn't perceived the improvements I was ready to pack it up and put it straight on the Bay and sell it probably for a profit! I got it used at a bit of steal.

 

[Tinman1952]

I've underlined the option that I think is (a minimum of) 90% more likely
(Brain adapting to a different presentation).

Sorry I have to disagree. I have experienced exactly this with music I know EXTREMELY well. Like speakers, amps need time to 'burn in'. I have even compared amps 'running in' with other amps I had at hand and could clearly hear the changes over time. I don't understand why some are just unwilling to accept this...

 

[Al ears]

Although I never saw the logic of it I also have experienced an improvement over time when I have had a new amp, which isn't very often, the most noticeable was my Tom Evans Audio kit but then the power amp did employ valves, that aside the same occurred with my latest offering the Parasound Halo Hint 6.

 

[Deleted member 108165]

Only ever experienced it with speakers or cartridges, solid state electronics no. I'm definitely an ear burn-in believer

 

[Tinman1952]

Only ever experienced it with speakers or cartridges, solid state electronics no. I'm definitely an ear burn-in believer

Well I would love to see ANY science supporting 'ear burn in'.....😉

 

[abacus]

You are a biological life form, and consequently can adapt to lot of different things that machines (Currently) cannot, this is the reason that your system has seemed to have improved, but in actuality hasn’t. (Give it a few more weeks and unless there is an underlying annoyance in the system it will sound even better)
When it comes to electronics there is no such thing as burn in, there never has been and there never will be, anyone that says there is, is just conning themselves.
Can electronics change over time, yes, as all components have a finite lifespan, thus distortions and instability’s will occur over time, but we are talking years here and unless there was a big change you would not notice it as being a biological lifeform your senses would adapt to the change. (If you were a machine you would notice it as soon as it occurred)
That you are getting more enjoyment after using it for some time is great and so long as the underlying performance is not annoying in any way it is quite normal for you to feel that way. (It will probably sound even better after a few more weeks)
In the final analysis, if you like the sound then that is all that is needed, so sit back, enjoy the music and forget about the electronics you are using.

Bill

 

[Gray]

Sorry I have to disagree. I have experienced exactly this with music I know EXTREMELY well. Like speakers, amps need time to 'burn in'. I have even compared amps 'running in' with other amps I had at hand and could clearly hear the changes over time. I don't understand why some are just unwilling to accept this...

We have no choice but to agree to disagree on the subject of burn-in - in particular the vast changes that people report.
Sorry.

 

[Tinman1952]

You are a biological life form, and consequently can adapt to lot of different things that machines (Currently) cannot, this is the reason that your system has seemed to have improved, but in actuality hasn’t. (Give it a few more weeks and unless there is an underlying annoyance in the system it will sound even better)
When it comes to electronics there is no such thing as burn in, there never has been and there never will be, anyone that says there is, is just conning themselves.
Can electronics change over time, yes, as all components have a finite lifespan, thus distortions and instability’s will occur over time, but we are talking years here and unless there was a big change you would not notice it as being a biological lifeform your senses would adapt to the change. (If you were a machine you would notice it as soon as it occurred)
That you are getting more enjoyment after using it for some time is great and so long as the underlying performance is not annoying in any way it is quite normal for you to feel that way. (It will probably sound even better after a few more weeks)
In the final analysis, if you like the sound then that is all that is needed, so sit back, enjoy the music and forget about the electronics you are using.

Bill

Once again...a scientist who cannot explain something ( given our current level of scientific understanding of electronics and psycho acoustics ) just in denial and refusing to accept people's actual experiences. "You are just imagining it son...."
I will not repeat the quote about advanced technology seeming like 'magic' to the less advanced.... it is all about our current level of understanding. Not everyone is a self deluded fool....

 

[Gray]

Ok, so you're definitely in the doubter camp.

I'm in no doubt that you perceived changes.
As for the reports from others, people genuinely believe they hear the difference that changing a mains fuse can have (and no, I'm not saying that you're one of those). However, you'd probably think they were imagining what they report.
Would you be wrong to question them? After all, they heard it.....and they know what they heard. They're absolutely certain of what they heard - they changed a fuse and they heard a difference....who are we to say they imagined what they heard?

 

[robdmarsh]

In the final analysis, if you like the sound then that is all that is needed, so sit back, enjoy the music and forget about the electronics you are using.
[/QUOTE]
I think we can all agree that this is a very sane comment.
Interesting discussion nonetheless. As a side note, when I had the Audiolab 6000a I experienced no such change. It sounded flat and lifeless out of the box and continued to sound flat and lifeless - like the name suggests, Audio LAB... sorry if any of you are fans and were triggered by that.
And here's a little Christmas game we could play. There's a guy on Youtube called Tharbamar who does lots of speaker reviews and sound clips. He has a very high end Denon amp and posted a video with two sound clips of the same song, one right out of the box and the other after 50 hours. If you have a good pair of headphones, why not get a blindfold and a Christmas elf and ask the elf to play the sound clips in the order of their choosing and pass you the headphones. Even if you could tell the difference between clip A and B, surely that would say something!

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tharbamar+denon

 

[robdmarsh]

Interestingly, on the speaker side of things, I noticed no such changes with my Triangle Titus EZ. They sounded very good from the get go and sound very good today

 

[RoA]

Decades ago I had a Denon PMA355UK. Nice little thing.

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

I've never experienced a significant change to gear whilst running in (speakers excepted) but if you have, I feel no need to tell you you are delusional. Some changes can be imagined, others unmistakeable. When the latter happens, theory matters for nowt.

 

[robdmarsh]

I've never experienced a significant change to gear whilst running in (speakers excepted) but if you have, I feel no need to tell you you are delusional. Some changes can be imagined, others unmistakeable. When the latter happens, theory matters for nowt.

But you've got "Experience filtration mains cables" (whatever those are) and I'm sure there are plenty who would tell you that whatever improvements you hear using these over a standard mains cable is also delusional.

 

[robdmarsh]

Anybody gonna play my Christmas game?

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

But you've got "Experience filtration mains cables" (whatever those are) and I'm sure there are plenty who would tell you that whatever improvements you hear using these over a standard mains cable is also delusional.

You misunderstand, though I concede I could have worded it better. I'm not commenting on whether you heard a difference - merely observing that life's too short to have to 'prove' yourself right in areas that really aren't that important in the scheme of things.

 

[camcroft]

Every set of headphones / earphones that I have I have tried them out the box and then left them playing on loop overnight and I can definitely hear the difference and I do own quite a few pairs. I will say that I bought some Beyerdynamic Soul Byrds on the merit of this sites 5 star award they sounded cr..p out the box and cr.p after my so called burning in they were sent straight back.

 

[Friesiansam]

Every set of headphones / earphones that I have I have tried them out the box and then left them playing on loop overnight and I can definitely hear the difference

That is my experience too, headphones definitely sound better after running-in. When I got my Focals I ran them in according to Focal's recommendation, 24 hours quite loud. I won't say there is no benefit from burning-in with solid state electronics but, It's not enough for me to notice.

 

[manicm]

I do believe components can burn in. But I also believe that many will retain a sonic signature that remains and will not change the mind of the purchaser.

I've experienced it myself, where after a year or so I sold said components because I simply did not like them.

Ear burn-in? Well one said component was significantly sibilant and remained so till I sold it. Humans can adapt, but adapting to pain NO. Sibilance is pain.

Hifi is not dogma, and as soon as I hear such and such repeated over and over I tune out and switch off

 

[abacus]

Headphones like speakers are mechanical and will usually sound better after running in for a time, however this is not burn in so be careful not to confuse the 2.

Tip for running in speakers (Used a lot in professional circles), place 2 speakers facing each other about 1m apart, connect 1 speaker out of phase, play a mono signal of pink noise through them for about 4hrs (As one of the speakers is out of phase it will cancel out a lot of the sound from the other speaker thus allowing for a high volume to be used (Be careful you don’t overdrive them though) and the job is done, then just connect the speakers back up correctly and position in the normal way and sit back and enjoy the music.

Bill

 

[Al ears]

Headphones like speakers are mechanical and will usually sound better after running in for a time, however this is not burn in so be careful not to confuse the 2.

Tip for running in speakers (Used a lot in professional circles), place 2 speakers facing each other about 1m apart, connect 1 speaker out of phase, play a mono signal of pink noise through them for about 4hrs (As one of the speakers is out of phase it will cancel out a lot of the sound from the other speaker thus allowing for a high volume to be used (Be careful you don’t overdrive them though) and the job is done, then just connect the speakers back up correctly and position in the normal way and sit back and enjoy the music.

Bill

Of course you could just buy an ex demo pair to start with.....

 

[twinkletoes]

No such thing as burn in. But there is such a thing as climatisation. Ie the electronic device needs a few hours to come up room temp from a cold state of storage. Takes probably 24 hr if the unit is really cold. And that can change the sound and it’s measurable. And not all amps work well when first turned on. Mine doesn’t, being class A it takes around 20 mins each time to come up to speed.

Speakers are a little different there mechanical and need to be run a little to free them up. Again doesn’t take long.

the op is experiencing climatisation at its best

 

[robdmarsh]

merely observing that life's too short to have to 'prove' yourself right in areas that really aren't that important in the scheme of things.

Chill, man, just having a bit of fun here. Why don't you play my Christmas game?🎄