Tantalising pictures of the new Devialet Expert model on their website...

[lindsayt]

Why would you want their business to fail? If customers are prepared to pay what they are asking, then that's their choice. I think you are unfairly picking on the top of the range Devialet 'statement' amplifier they have just released. The other components are probaby more reasonable in price, but yes they are still expensive in the scheme of things. However when you look at the quality of the engineering, the build quality, manufacturing processes, design, aesthetics, software, technology, upgradeability etc. they are on a different planet compared to the products of the companies you have mentioned. My analogy of your comparison is one of a cottage industry kit-kar maker with a luxury car manufacturer. Most people with the necessary disposable income would rather have the latter.

The quality of the engineering is not good in Devialet amplifiers.

Look at the problems Gazzip had with his.

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/hi-fi-pet-hates?page=1

Surface mount technology is fine for semi-disposable items like £100 PC motherboards.

For £4000 to £18000 amplifiers it's not good for long term reliability and repairability.

And then there's the sound quality. Which, as Spiny Norman has said is so so. If Devialet truly were well engineered the sound quality would be world class.

Devialet are not on a different planet when it comes to sound quality. And surely that's the most important thing in an amplifier?

The car analogy is not an appropriate one. Cars are cars. Amplifiers are amplifiers.

Amplifiers are tools for getting the best sound out of your music recordings. A better analogy would be to say that it's like spades. The small direct seller companies make amplifiers that are like traditional wooden handled metal bladed spades. The Devialets are like chrome plated spades selling at 10 to 20 times the price.

The vast majority of people that I know with high disposable incomes are not fools. They dislike paying over the odds for anything. They love a bargain. Devialet amplifiers are not bargains.

 

[bigboss]

However, we as customers have a choice. We can either put our business with companies with pricing that bears no resemblance to the materials and manufacturing costs. Or we can buy from companies where the pricing is much more closely linked to the costs to make it.

Apple? Officially the biggest waste of money in the World but they sell in vast quantities.

Also, Apple products don't depreciate as much in price compared to its Android counterparts. My wife once had an iPhone 4S. She used it for a year, didn't like it much, so sold it. The cost of ownership for a year? £120. My other Android phones dropped more than 75% of their value in that time. So what's actually cheaper to own?

 

[bigboss]

Why would you want their business to fail? If customers are prepared to pay what they are asking, then that's their choice. I think you are unfairly picking on the top of the range Devialet 'statement' amplifier they have just released. The other components are probaby more reasonable in price, but yes they are still expensive in the scheme of things. However when you look at the quality of the engineering, the build quality, manufacturing processes, design, aesthetics, software, technology, upgradeability etc. they are on a different planet compared to the products of the companies you have mentioned. My analogy of your comparison is one of a cottage industry kit-kar maker with a luxury car manufacturer. Most people with the necessary disposable income would rather have the latter.  

 

The quality of the engineering is not good in Devialet amplifiers.

Look at the problems Gazzip had with his.

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/hi-fi-pet-hates?page=1

 

Surface mount technology is fine for semi-disposable items like £100 PC motherboards.

For £4000 to £18000 amplifiers it's not good for long term reliability and repairability.

 

And then there's the sound quality. Which, as Spiny Norman has said is so so. If Devialet truly were well engineered the sound quality would be world class.

Devialet are not on a different planet when it comes to sound quality. And surely that's the most important thing in an amplifier?

 

The car analogy is not an appropriate one. Cars are cars. Amplifiers are amplifiers.

Amplifiers are tools for getting the best sound out of your music recordings. A better analogy would be to say that it's like spades. The small direct seller companies make amplifiers that are like traditional wooden handled metal bladed spades. The Devialets are like chrome plated spades selling at 10 to 20 times the price.

 

The vast majority of people that I know with high disposable incomes are not fools. They dislike paying over the odds for anything. They love a bargain. Devialet amplifiers are not bargains.

It is unfair to wish that Devialet don't remain in business, especially considering you don't have any ownership experience of their products.

If a forum member had problem with a Devialet product, or another forum member doesn't like it's performance, that is not representative of the company or the product in general.

What's with people disliking products manufacturers spend time in their design to look beautiful and desirable? I don't like iOS, but Apple products for example are well made and desirable. If they want to charge a fortune for it, they're only doing so because people are willing to pay the premium.

 

[bigboss]

Surface mount technology is fine for semi-disposable items like £100 PC motherboards.

For £4000 to £18000 amplifiers it's not good for long term reliability and repairability.

From Wikipedia:

The main advantages of SMT over the older through-hole technique are:

Smaller components. As of 2012 smallest was 0.4 × 0.2 mm (0.016 × 0.008 in: 01005). Expected to sample in 2013 are 0.25 × 0.125 mm (0.010 × 0.005 in, size not yet standardized)

Much higher component density (components per unit area) and many more connections per component.

Higher density of connections because holes do not block routing space on inner or back-side layers.

Components can be placed on both sides of the circuit board.

Small errors in component placement are corrected automatically as the surface tension of molten solder pulls components into alignment with solder pads.

Better mechanical performance under shake and vibration conditions.

Lower resistance and inductance at the connection; consequently, fewer unwanted RF signal effects and better and more predictable high-frequency performance.

Fewer holes need to be drilled.

Lower initial cost and time of setting up for production.

Simpler and faster automated assembly. Some placement machines are capable of placing more than 136,000 components per hour.

Many SMT parts cost less than equivalent through-hole parts.

Better EMC performance (lower radiated emissions) due to the smaller radiation loop area (because of the smaller package) and the smaller lead inductance.

 

[jjbomber]

I don't like iOS, but Apple products for example are well made and desirable. If they want to charge a fortune for it, they're only doing so because people are willing to pay the premium.

Exactly my point earlier. The number 1 brand in the World, customers pay more for the brand and get less goods than with any other brand. Yet customers queue up overnight for the privilege. That is a triumph of great marketing. All companies would love to do the same, be it cars, phones, amplifiers, whatever.

 

[CnoEvil]

The success of Devialet will depend on how much it has had to borrow to set up, fund its research and function day to day, compared with its cash flow....and the confidence of the Bank that will be funding them.

 

[tino]

Surface mount technology is fine for semi-disposable items like £100 PC motherboards.

For £4000 to £18000 amplifiers it's not good for long term reliability and repairability.

If you mean it might me more difficult for a DIY enthusiast to repair then I agree. But to rubbish SMT technology like you have is silly.

There are significant advantage in terms of mechanical and thermal performance, better reliability in most (but not all) applications, less series resistance and inductance and better EMC performance. All very important attributes in electronic amplifier design I would imagine.

The cottage industry manufacturers you quote use through hole component technology probably because they have to for commercial or competence reasons, or because the style of product they make requires traditional/hand-made production techniques.

 

[Gazzip]

And then there's the sound quality. Which, as Spiny Norman has said is so so. If Devialet truly were well engineered the sound quality would be world class.

Devialet are not on a different planet when it comes to sound quality. And surely that's the most important thing in an amplifier?

Lindsayt, I have a lot of respect for what you have to say on this forum which is usually well measured (no pun intended), but surely this is just personal opinion which is out of character for you? There are plenty out there, professional reviewers and ordinary consumers alike, who think that the Devialet sound is on a different planet.

Electronically they are doing some very clever stuff. Some of it will inevitably turn out to be a bit blah, but some of it is most definately not blah. My experience/opinion, having gone from Audio Research to Devialet, is that the Devialet sound has a signature which combines the best of valve ("space" around notes and wonderful dynamics) with the best of SS (insight, clarity, detail and downright whallop).

You are right, I have had issues with my D800. Most notably these are the phono stage, which is not up to the job, and the power supply which makes a constant low level noise. This is no different however from many other high end manufacturers who make products which are equally/more idiosyncratic. The bottom line is that (to my ears) the Devialet amplifier itself more than makes up for these shortcomings on its own.

 

[nopiano]

This thread has strayed into an interesting area for me. For reasons that I cannot quite fathom, I find myself drawn to makers from overseas. These include:-

Audio Research, Copland, Krell, Densen, Devialet, Electrocompaniet, Accuphase, Luxman.

In the UK we have good competitors like:-

Musical Fidelity (which I once owned), Meridian, Exposure, Creek, Croft, maybe Naim.

Now my Krells are getting on for twenty years old, I realise the value of decent warranties and distributors that stay in business - take a bow, Absolute Sounds. The new Densen distributor who I've been in contact with sells a product with a lifetime guarantee. The Devialet is a big attraction, pace Lindsay's misgivings. Hard to know if they'll survive, but I'm disconcerted by the flood of new products. I'd be more reassured by continuous improvement.

 

[Infiniteloop]

And then there's the sound quality. Which, as Spiny Norman has said is so so. If Devialet truly were well engineered the sound quality would be world class.

Devialet are not on a different planet when it comes to sound quality. And surely that's the most important thing in an amplifier?

Lindsayt, I have a lot of respect for what you have to say on this forum which is usually well measured (no pun intended), but surely this is just personal opinion which is out of character for you? There are plenty out there, professional reviewers and ordinary consumers alike, who think that the Devialet sound is on a different planet.

Electronically they are doing some very clever stuff. Some of it will inevitably turn out to be a bit blah, but some of it is most definately not blah. My experience/opinion, having gone from Audio Research to Devialet, is that the Devialet sound has a signature which combines the best of valve ("space" around notes and wonderful dynamics) with the best of SS (insight, clarity, detail and downright whallop).

You are right, I have had issues with my D800. Most notably these are the phono stage, which is not up to the job, and the power supply which makes a constant low level noise. This is no different however from many other high end manufacturers who make products which are equally/more idiosyncratic. The bottom line is that (to my ears) the Devialet amplifier itself more than makes up for these shortcomings on its own.

=

+1

Not only are the electronics very clever, but the software is very clever too. - And updates are free.

Nobody else is doing anything remotely like it, and that's where the value is along with performance and sound quality.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Why would you want their business to fail? If customers are prepared to pay what they are asking, then that's their choice. I think you are unfairly picking on the top of the range Devialet 'statement' amplifier they have just released. The other components are probaby more reasonable in price, but yes they are still expensive in the scheme of things. However when you look at the quality of the engineering, the build quality, manufacturing processes, design, aesthetics, software, technology, upgradeability etc. they are on a different planet compared to the products of the companies you have mentioned. My analogy of your comparison is one of a cottage industry kit-kar maker with a luxury car manufacturer. Most people with the necessary disposable income would rather have the latter.

The quality of the engineering is not good in Devialet amplifiers.

Look at the problems Gazzip had with his.

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/hi-fi-pet-hates?page=1

Surface mount technology is fine for semi-disposable items like £100 PC motherboards.

For £4000 to £18000 amplifiers it's not good for long term reliability and repairability.

And then there's the sound quality. Which, as Spiny Norman has said is so so. If Devialet truly were well engineered the sound quality would be world class.

Devialet are not on a different planet when it comes to sound quality. And surely that's the most important thing in an amplifier?

The car analogy is not an appropriate one. Cars are cars. Amplifiers are amplifiers.

Amplifiers are tools for getting the best sound out of your music recordings. A better analogy would be to say that it's like spades. The small direct seller companies make amplifiers that are like traditional wooden handled metal bladed spades. The Devialets are like chrome plated spades selling at 10 to 20 times the price.

The vast majority of people that I know with high disposable incomes are not fools. They dislike paying over the odds for anything. They love a bargain. Devialet amplifiers are not bargains.

Really?

Perhaps you should ask ex-Naim or Audio Research owners who have dumped racks of equipment and replaced it all with one small, shiny, thin box if they feel the same.

 

[Infiniteloop]

But then, to actually appreciate a Devialet, you have to listen to one.

Have done, several times, with reactions varying between wondering what all the fuss was about and active dislike.

They may be designed to measure beautifully, have enough power to give the Sun a run for its money, come in a new version every time you think you've bought the ultimate one (clever, that: straight marketing with gain), but they really don't play music.

Perhaps you prefer the coloured sound that a lot of Amplifiers give you. And that's OK, there are times when I prefer the sound of my SET Amp, like when I'm listening to classical chamber music or voices.

But to diss an Amp which clearly and measurably is giving you the most accurate path to the source recording available might come across as churlishness.

 

[lindsayt]

Really?

Perhaps you should ask ex-Naim or Audio Research owners who have dumped racks of equipment and replaced it all with one small, shiny, thin box if they feel the same.

That's damning with faint praise to say that Devialet is preferable to Naim and Audio Research.

 

[lindsayt]

Perhaps you prefer the coloured sound that a lot of Amplifiers give you. And that's OK, there are times when I prefer the sound of my SET Amp, like when I'm listening to classical chamber music or voices.

But to diss an Amp which clearly and measurably is giving you the most accurate path to the source recording available might come across as churlishness.

Which measurements are those?

I'm not aware of any measurements that indicate that.

 

[Jota180]

If you don't like their work to date then yes it probably will.

You mean they've managed to make it even more bland, anonymous and soulless? Wow.

Nah. They've made it even more neutral, powerful, accurate and with less distortion than their previous efforts which already had the lowest distortion of any Amplifier. But then, to actually appreciate a Devialet, you have to listen to one.

Of course Devialet's improvements also mean they're even more desirable, especially to those for whom one may be out of reach.....

I thought their lowest distorion figures came up the top end of the volume and at more normal listening levels the distortion was a lot higher.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/devialet-d-premier-da-integrated-amplifier-measurements#b7g1iBH5iBLZET3w.97

 

[spiny norman]

Perhaps you prefer the coloured sound that a lot of Amplifiers give you. And that's OK, there are times when I prefer the sound of my SET Amp, like when I'm listening to classical chamber music or voices.

But to diss an Amp which clearly and measurably is giving you the most accurate path to the source recording available might come across as churlishness.

Yes, perhaps I'm an idiot like that, and can't recognise genius when I hear it. Or perhaps I just have an opinion, which is just as valid as yours, and unclouded by manufacturers' claims.

 

[NSA_watch_my_toilet]

Devialet is a funny brand. Always doing Jean-Claude Van Damne for beeing technologically rational at one side, and snake-oily at the other.

Like their speaker that are doing 3000 watts (...additionned performance of every speaker/amplifier in the unit), and doing 16hz to 25khz (don't know how they mesured that). And their amplifier, that are the most distorsionless amplifiers in the world (if you forgot to count 25 other amps). They should compete to the "best BS specification award". Not sure that B&W and Naim will win this time. The french BS is too powerful.

P.S. Interesting fact. I just googled a little bit to find reviews of the Devialet amps. I found reviews, but in BS oriented magazines, that are only giving stars or "impressions" and don't do any kind of mesures of any kind, like you see in Audioo or Stereoplay for example. Even the Stereoplay magazine did not mesure the devialet products (what they, normally, always do). Interesting around this review was ; As I visited the "review" of them, I noticed the very discret "Anzeige" marks on the side. Translate is "Advertisement". So serious magazines only review it on Ad basics, and unserious magazines are giving the Devialets products lots of stars.

 

[Gazzip]

Devialet is a funny brand. Always doing Jean-Claude Van Damne for beeing technologically rational at one side, and snake-oily at the other.

Like their speaker that are doing 3000 watts (...additionned performance of every speaker/amplifier in the unit), and doing 16hz to 25khz (don't know how they mesured that). And their amplifier, that are the most distorsionless amplifiers in the world (if you forgot to count 25 other amps). They should compete to the "best BS specification award". Not sure that B&W and Naim will win this time. The french BS is too powerful.

Mesure of an Accuphase E-213

I think you probably all need to put your measuring tapes away, take your heads out of your spec sheets/bums and go listen to some music played through a Devialet 800 strapped on to a good pair of speakers. If you like, you like. If you don't you don't. Simple as that really.

I can guarantee with absolute surety that if you only look to the measuements you will miss out on many, many gems.

 

[NSA_watch_my_toilet]

Nobody claimed that astonishing mesures are the only factor to define a good sound. I just noticed that Devialet is announcing overwhelming performances that they are afraid to show. And yes, if you go to spend +8'000 bucks on an amplifier, it would be great to listen to him before, even if it's completely ridiculous to spend that much on an amplifier that will have very little impact on the sound.

 

[Al ears]

Devialet is a funny brand. Always doing Jean-Claude Van Damne for beeing technologically rational at one side, and snake-oily at the other.

Like their speaker that are doing 3000 watts (...additionned performance of every speaker/amplifier in the unit), and doing 16hz to 25khz (don't know how they mesured that). And their amplifier, that are the most distorsionless amplifiers in the world (if you forgot to count 25 other amps). They should compete to the "best BS specification award". Not sure that B&W and Naim will win this time. The french BS is too powerful.

Mesure of an Accuphase E-213

I think you probably all need to put your measuring tapes away, take your heads out of your spec sheets/bums and go listen to some music played through a Devialet 800 strapped on to a good pair of speakers. If you like, you like. If you don't you don't. Simple as that really.

I can guarantee with absolute surety that if you only look to the measuements you will miss out on many, many gems.

Quite agree measurements are not everything. I happen to know the stats on my Tom Evans Preamp and am sure they are in a different league to most, that isn't entirely the point though is it? The Devialet is much more than a bunch of numbers and just wish I could afford one to compare with what i currently have on a purely sonic basis. If it bettered what I have I would quite happily sell my three boxes to get one.

 

[nopiano]

Nobody claimed that astonishing mesures are the only factor to define a good sound. I just noticed that Devialet is announcing overwhelming performances that they are afraid to show. And yes, if you go to spend +8'000 bucks on an amplifier, it would be great to listen to him before, even if it's completely ridiculous to spend that much on an amplifier that will have very little impact on the sound.

There are suites of measurements by HiFi News magazine on line, and they've tested at least three Devialet models that I recall. They are measurably about as astounding as the makers claim. They aren't cheap, but they do include phono preamp, DAC and streamer, as well as pre and power amp - in the one box!

I first heard one on some Sonus Faber Cremonas for about two hours, and it seemed to me to be totally transparent. That was the original model. Some time later, I heard the newer monoblocks with KEF Blades. I preferred the earlier system, but I think that was because I like the sf family sound, and didn't warm to the KEFs.

 

[lindsayt]

There are suites of measurements by HiFi News magazine on line, and they've tested at least three Devialet models that I recall. They are measurably about as astounding as the makers claim...

The only HFN measurements of Devialet I've been able to find from a Google search only showed distortion mesurements for power levels greater than 1 watt.

Which is absolutely useless for me, as that would be over 100 dbs and I never listen that loud.

Come back when you've got measurements in the sub micro-watt range before making any claims about how astounding they are.

 

[nopiano]

There are suites of measurements by HiFi News magazine on line, and they've tested at least three Devialet models that I recall. They are measurably about as astounding as the makers claim...

The only HFN measurements of Devialet I've been able to find from a Google search only showed distortion mesurements for power levels greater than 1 watt.

Which is absolutely useless for me, as that would be oveŷr 100 dbs and I never listen that loud.

Come back when you've got measurements in the sub micro-watt range before making any claims about how astounding they are.

You are quite right, Lindsay, the magazine editor measures at 1 watt, 10 watts, and above. This is pretty much the industry norm, as far as I'm aware. I realise that with your super sensitive speakers this isn't too relevant, but then neither are outputs in the several hundred watt range, surely? And super low levels do reveal oddities in any digital device, such as unrecognisable sine waves. Maybe valves would be more suitable here?

By the way, I wasn't trying to make any "claims", other than directing another contributor to a source of measurements that they suggested didn't exist, and by relaying two of my own listening experiences, hopefully to indicate I had taken an interest in said amplifiers.

 

[lindsayt]

Yes, the industry norm for amplifier distortion measurement is useless.

Even if you have very low sensitivity speakers, 1 watt still produces 84 dbs, which I find loud for domestic listening.

If this were QED it'd be one of those "Nobody knows" questions. Nobody knows how different amplifiers compare for distortion in the sub micro watt to milliwatt power levels.

 

[nopiano]

Yes, the industry norm for amplifier distortion measurement is useless.

Even if you have very low sensitivity speakers, 1 watt still produces 84 dbs, which I find loud for domestic listening.

If this were QED it'd be one of those "Nobody knows" questions. Nobody knows how different amplifiers compare for distortion in the sub micro watt to milliwatt power levels.

I may try to pen a note to the editor of HFN as he seems to be a fan, and uses a pair of Devialet 800 in his reference system iirc. And he designs and sells measuring gear too...!