Suggested Hi-Fi system for a near-midlife crisis!

[megatombomb]

No. Amp's really don't make much difference, but speakers make or break a system. They're the bits that colour the sound. Most amps have a flat frequency response and thd's that are pretty much the same. Not saying they're all the same, but maybe they contribute < 5% to differences you hear. That's why no-one was game to take the Harbeth test when it came to it.

Surely it's down to the OP to listen for himself......as after all, it is he who will be paying for it, and then listening to it on an on-going basis.

There are quite a few on here who completely disagree with you, and the OP may find he is one of them.

Truly two very differing opinions here but one things for certain and thats trusting my own ears. Its a shame it isnt easier (where i live int hills!) to get the time to travel and hear all the shortlisted components, so i thank again all those for giving me an idea of how certain components sound.

Perhaps if the speakers do define the characteristic of the sound more than anthing else i should be considering the Harbeth Super HL5 as i guesstimate they would come closest to sounding like they old mans 70's wharfedale standmounts.

Would warm amp and CD create tooo much warmth?! Can that even be a bad thing lol!!

 

[richardw42]

Your source and amp will give so much more if you upgrade the MAs only. I'd be inclined to investigate serious speakers with a view to keeping the Marantz & Pioneer.

As long as sources and amps haven't been particularly badly designed changing will have nowhere near the same effect as changing speakers.

 

[CnoEvil]

Perhaps if the speakers do define the characteristic of the sound more than anthing else i should be considering the Harbeth Super HL5 as i guesstimate they would come closest to sounding like they old mans 70's wharfedale standmounts.

Would warm amp and CD create tooo much warmth?! Can that even be a bad thing lol!!

I am not dogmatic or absolutist in my approach / advice, as this can lead people astray, due to the very personal nature of taste.

All I can tell you is that my Class A amp is the most important part of my system, and the last I would let go.

Carefully chosen valve components needn't make a system too warm (though it is subjective)............a quick listen to an Audio Note system can confirm this (imo).

 

[megatombomb]

Your source and amp will give so much more if you upgrade the MAs only. I'd be inclined to investigate serious speakers with a view to keeping the Marantz & Pioneer.

As long as sources and amps haven't been particularly badly designed changing will have nowhere near the same effect as changing speakers.

Have been wondering about the source ie CDP making much difference. I have just substituted a DenonDBP2012 uni player for a Marantz UD7007 and low and behold i cant tell much if any difference in the sound!

The marantz has dual HDMI outs but so far its the only benefit ive found. Ultimately it does have balanced XLR RCA outs which i hope to use via my new amp and speakers. Starting to think my budget needs to almost solely go on these.

And maybe a new turntable :shame: :wall: :roll:

 

[CnoEvil]

Have been wondering about the source ie CDP making much difference. I have just substituted a DenonDBP2012 uni player for a Marantz UD7007 and low and behold i cant tell much if any difference in the sound!

The marantz has dual HDMI outs but so far its the only benefit ive found. Ultimately it does have balanced XLR RCA outs which i hope to use via my new amp and speakers. Starting to think my budget needs to almost solely go on these.

And maybe a new turntable :shame: :wall: :roll:

Sorry for butting in, and I'm sure Richard will answer for himself, but I have a couple of thoughts:

- A digital source can take up less (% wise) of the total budget than a TT

- The better the amp and speakers get, the more it can highlight any weakness in the source (and highlight a better one).

- Having a valve in the CDP will make it sound different....a little less "digital".

- A Streamer (eg. Linn / Naim / Cyrus) imo gives better sound per pound than a CDP.

 

[Helmut80]

Has anyone recommended SF Liutos yet?

 

[CnoEvil]

Has anyone recommended SF Liutos yet?

They have now!

 

[megatombomb]

No apology necessary CNO.

Your advice has been most useful up to now, so do as you do!

Re CDP vs Streamer i have put alot of money into building a big CD collection so i'd prefer to sit down and listen to them or i'd have downloaded everything on FLAC by now and saved myself alot of money ironically.

But i like to have a physical reference and i dont feel as good loading up a digi file whereas i can approach my CD's and have a good look at them before deciding what to enjoy!

I am in two minds now whether to demo speakers or amp first. I dont doubt the importance of the amp as experienced with my old mans system when the tandberg broke we had to use an onkyo av amp in its place while it was fixed and it did affect the sound in shall we say a bad way!

 

[CnoEvil]

No apology necessary CNO.

Your advice has been most useful up to now, so do as you do!

Re CDP vs Streamer i have put alot of money into building a big CD collection so i'd prefer to sit down and listen to them or i'd have downloaded everything on FLAC by now and saved myself alot of money ironically.

But i like to have a physical reference and i dont feel as good loading up a digi file whereas i can approach my CD's and have a good look at them before deciding what to enjoy!

I am in two minds now whether to demo speakers or amp first. I dont doubt the importance of the amp as experienced with my old mans system when the tandberg broke we had to use an onkyo av amp in its place while it was fixed and it did affect the sound in shall we say a bad way!

I'm an "old man" in the sense that i was brought up on vinyl, and thought as you do about a physical format.....but once I heard the improvement a Linn DS brought, I was hooked; and I don't regret it and would never go back (my CDs are like the ultimate backup, and I still by my music on them).

It doesn't really matter what you demo first, as long as you make a start. It should become clear where your preferences lie, once the process starts.

What brands do you have access to (amp/speakers) and can demo together?

 

[Electro]

No apology necessary CNO.

Your advice has been most useful up to now, so do as you do!

Re CDP vs Streamer i have put alot of money into building a big CD collection so i'd prefer to sit down and listen to them or i'd have downloaded everything on FLAC by now and saved myself alot of money ironically.

But i like to have a physical reference and i dont feel as good loading up a digi file whereas i can approach my CD's and have a good look at them before deciding what to enjoy!

I am in two minds now whether to demo speakers or amp first. I dont doubt the importance of the amp as experienced with my old mans system when the tandberg broke we had to use an onkyo av amp in its place while it was fixed and it did affect the sound in shall we say a bad way!

My suggestion would be to demo the speakers and amps together because the way the speakers and the amps interact and work together is very important IMO .

Ideally you want a combination that works to combine the strengths of the two rather than cancel out each others weaknesses , it may take a while to find the equipment that suits you taste but you should take your time and read about the design and philosophy behind the different makes and also listen to as much equipment as possible .

This is what I do and it has served me very well and my suggestion on post number 9 page 7 might help you on your way

Oh and I agree with you about Cd's vs streaming at the risk of incurring CNO's wrath :shifty:

 

[CnoEvil]

My suggestion would be to demo the speakers and amps together because the way the speakers and the amps interact and work together is very important IMO .

Ideally you want a combination that works to combine the strengths of the two rather than cancel out each others weaknesses , it may take a while to find the equipment that suits you taste but you should take your time and read about the design and philosophy behind the different makes and also listen to as much equipment as possible .

This is what I do and it has served me very well and my suggestion on post number 9 page 7 might help you on your way

Oh and I agree with you about Cd's vs streaming at the risk of incurring CNO's wrath :shifty:

I agree with this logic, which is why I asked for available brands and which ones could be heard together.

FWIW. Cno has little energy for wrath atm.

 

[Macspur]

The Harbeth SHL5 is a beautiful beautiful sounding speaker, but I urge you to home demo before purchase, as despite being front ported they do like a lot of space around them... as I am finding myself... at lower listening levels- 7-8 o'clock on the dial matched with my IA-4 they are superb, but 9 or over on certain recordings... boom!

Alternatively, you may be better with the smaller P3ESR with a well matched sub for the base you like.

Personally, I am in the physical format camp and if you could stretch to an EMC1UP you won't find better at twice the price.

NB, for more info on Harbeth, worth a visit to their forum.

Mac

 

[Electro]

I agree with this logic, which is why I asked for available brands and which ones could be heard together.

FWIW. Cno has little energy for wrath atm.

Sorry if I stepped on you toes regarding above statement , and i hope recent events are not getting you down too much and that you get your energy and wrath back soon ray:

 

[CnoEvil]

Sorry if I stepped on you toes regarding above statement , and i hope recent events are not getting you down too much and that you get your energy and wrath back soon ray:

Your light hearted comment was taken in jest........so toes remain intact.

Recent events will continue to do my head in for some time to come, and man-flew has struck as well. :wall:

 

[Helmut80]

Has anyone recommended SF Liutos yet?

They have now!

only mentioned them because Op said something about warm presentation. It's no secret that I love these speakers
. They are so much fun. And look so much better.

 

[CnoEvil]

Has anyone recommended SF Liutos yet?

They have now!

only mentioned them because Op said something about warm presentation. It's no secret that I love these speakers

. They are so much fun. And look so much better.

It's a great choice.

 

[megatombomb]

Have now identified the old mans Wharfedales as model '507.2'.

Much to my surprise they have aluminium dome tweeters! And yet listening to how smooth it sounds i wouldnt have thought it possible. It has an 8 inch mid/woofer which seems to allow me to feel the lower bass notes at low volumes giving it real sense of scale and majesty. I like this character and its something my MA RX6 can only dream of. Also i would describe the treble as allowing the cymbals to sound like cymbals instead of a dryer sound like that from all my MA BX2/RX6 (I may have critisised these speakers alot now but i will say again as a surround setup for movies they do work lovely!)

Anyway this has led me back to Kef R900 now as its a full 3 way speaker and i would imagine quite a grand sound with some warmth but if i position 30cm from back wall i can imagine the bass thickens too much!

So i am down to finding demo of:

Kef R900, MA GX300 (just for a laugh), Harbeth HL5 (hard to find demo), ATC SCM40 (still i imagine to like), Spendor A9, PMC OB1i.

 

[Macspur]

Have now identified the old mans Wharfedales as model '507.2'.

Much to my surprise they have aluminium dome tweeters! And yet listening to how smooth it sounds i wouldnt have thought it possible. It has an 8 inch mid/woofer which seems to allow me to feel the lower bass notes at low volumes giving it real sense of scale and majesty. I like this character and its something my MA RX6 can only dream of. Also i would describe the treble as allowing the cymbals to sound like cymbals instead of a dryer sound like that from all my MA BX2/RX6 (I may have critisised these speakers alot now but i will say again as a surround setup for movies they do work lovely!)

Anyway this has led me back to Kef R900 now as its a full 3 way speaker and i would imagine quite a grand sound with some warmth but if i position 30cm from back wall i can imagine the bass thickens too much!

So i am down to finding demo of:

Kef R900, MA GX300 (just for a laugh), Harbeth HL5 (hard to find demo), ATC SCM40 (still i imagine to like), Spendor A9, PMC OB1i.

Not sure where abouts you're based, but give Trevor at Guildford Audio a call re demo of Harbeth... good guy to deal with and may well visit.

Mac

 

[megatombomb]

Have now identified the old mans Wharfedales as model '507.2'.

Much to my surprise they have aluminium dome tweeters! And yet listening to how smooth it sounds i wouldnt have thought it possible. It has an 8 inch mid/woofer which seems to allow me to feel the lower bass notes at low volumes giving it real sense of scale and majesty. I like this character and its something my MA RX6 can only dream of. Also i would describe the treble as allowing the cymbals to sound like cymbals instead of a dryer sound like that from all my MA BX2/RX6 (I may have critisised these speakers alot now but i will say again as a surround setup for movies they do work lovely!)

Anyway this has led me back to Kef R900 now as its a full 3 way speaker and i would imagine quite a grand sound with some warmth but if i position 30cm from back wall i can imagine the bass thickens too much!

So i am down to finding demo of:

Kef R900, MA GX300 (just for a laugh), Harbeth HL5 (hard to find demo), ATC SCM40 (still i imagine to like), Spendor A9, PMC OB1i.

Not sure where abouts you're based, but give Trevor at Guildford Audio a call re demo of Harbeth... good guy to deal with and may well visit.

Mac

Based in the North West 20 miles south of Manchester near Buxton to be exact! Aka Whaley Bridge lol

Have found a Harbeth dealer in Warrington called Doug Brady Hi Fi who seem to be my closest option.

 

[Macspur]

Have now identified the old mans Wharfedales as model '507.2'.

Much to my surprise they have aluminium dome tweeters! And yet listening to how smooth it sounds i wouldnt have thought it possible. It has an 8 inch mid/woofer which seems to allow me to feel the lower bass notes at low volumes giving it real sense of scale and majesty. I like this character and its something my MA RX6 can only dream of. Also i would describe the treble as allowing the cymbals to sound like cymbals instead of a dryer sound like that from all my MA BX2/RX6 (I may have critisised these speakers alot now but i will say again as a surround setup for movies they do work lovely!)

Anyway this has led me back to Kef R900 now as its a full 3 way speaker and i would imagine quite a grand sound with some warmth but if i position 30cm from back wall i can imagine the bass thickens too much!

So i am down to finding demo of:

Kef R900, MA GX300 (just for a laugh), Harbeth HL5 (hard to find demo), ATC SCM40 (still i imagine to like), Spendor A9, PMC OB1i.

Not sure where abouts you're based, but give Trevor at Guildford Audio a call re demo of Harbeth... good guy to deal with and may well visit.

Mac

Based in the North West 20 miles south of Manchester near Buxton to be exact! Aka Whaley Bridge lol

Have found a Harbeth dealer in Warrington called Doug Brady Hi Fi who seem to be my closest option.

Ah that's good... was talking to another dealer the other day who visited Doug Bradys and they had a Harbeth SHL5 with Sonneteer amps on demo and apparently sounded very good.

Mac

 

[Singslinger]

I've heard the Sugden Masterclass integrated driving ProAc D18s and the sound was captivating. Very rich, full-bodied and musical, so this is a combo I would strongly recommend. The Sugden's 30 watts sounded like 300! However, the amp's class A design means it runs hot and because it is thicker than the average amp, placement within most racks in order to ensure sufficient ventilation might be an issue.

I also like the sound of Electrocompaniet amps - very smooth and lush, though I've not heard them driving PMC speakers but instead Joseph Audios from the US.

Between the two I went for the Sugden because to my aging ears, class A sounds more musical. But Electro is definitely worth considering IMO.

However, one final observation that may or may not be relevant - do looks matter? I ask because shallow person that I am, my purchasing decisions over the years have sometimes been swayed by how an item looks. A nicely finished pair of speakers often catches my eye (as do women with nice long legs, but we won't go into that here) and as for amps, I think Electro makes some damn fine-looking and tempting gear.

PS I think the Harbeth-Sugden pairing would sound fantastic.

 

[Macspur]

I've heard the Sugden Masterclass integrated driving ProAc D18s and the sound was captivating. Very rich, full-bodied and musical, so this is a combo I would strongly recommend. The Sugden's 30 watts sounded like 300! However, the amp's class A design means it runs hot and because it is thicker than the average amp, placement within most racks in order to ensure sufficient ventilation might be an issue. I also like the sound of Electrocompaniet amps - very smooth and lush, though I've not heard them driving PMC speakers but instead Joseph Audios from the US. Between the two I went for the Sugden because to my aging ears, class A sounds more musical. But Electro is definitely worth considering IMO. However, one final observation that may or may not be relevant - do looks matter? I ask because shallow person that I am, my purchasing decisions over the years have sometimes been swayed by how an item looks. A nicely finished pair of speakers often catches my eye (as do women with nice long legs, but we won't go into that here) and as for amps, I think Electro makes some damn fine-looking and tempting gear. PS I think the Harbeth-Sugden pairing would sound fantastic.

It does! especially with their grills off, but that's for another thread and prob on Harbeth forum.

Must admit though, still have a hankering to try an Accuphase amp.

Mac

 

[antskip]

As long as sources and amps haven't been particularly badly designed changing will have nowhere near the same effect as changing speakers.

I spent half a day recently listening to a whole raft of quality amps with eveything else staying the same, and there were huge huge differences in what came from a pair of quality speakers! The speakers maybe the first thing to chose, but the choice of amp will make those speakers sound as different as chalk and cheese. Many amps have so much "character" that you will love or hate what they do with any choice of speaker. Anyway, that's what I found...

 

[Macspur]

Just been looking on the Doug Brady site and they've got a pair of Harbeth M30 at an excellent price.

Mac

 

[Singslinger]

As long as sources and amps haven't been particularly badly designed changing will have nowhere near the same effect as changing speakers.

I spent half a day recently listening to a whole raft of quality amps with eveything else staying the same, and there were huge huge differences in what came from a pair of quality speakers! The speakers maybe the first thing to chose, but the choice of amp will make those speakers sound as different as chalk and cheese. Many amps have so much "character" that you will love or hate what they do with any choice of speaker. Anyway, that's what I found...

Yes I agree. It's a tough call but in the amp vs speaker debate, I'd say the amp comes first - but only just.