If you live anywhere near Gloucestershire, you really should get over to AVI to hear the ADM40s.
The amp speaker matching is done for you. The ATC actives appeal but the price takes your breath away.
The amp speaker matching is done for you. The ATC actives appeal but the price takes your breath away.
megatombomb said:
I have a 35W Class A amp (same as Roby and Iceman), and it sounds more like 200W.....so it's best not to make generalizations.
I suspect it would be fine, if you listen at moderate levels, but either Rick or David might comment further....or you could ring Sugden / ATC to check, as well as listen for yourself. It is often matched with Spendors which can have a lower sensitivity.
There is also the possibility that you will prefer other speakers, which you won't know until you start listening....as I said, do not make assumptions.
The M6i is much more powerful, but you may not prefer the way it sounds....then again you might!
I would pick the Sugden or Pathos followed closely by the Electro.......but what I like is irrelevant.
As has been said, the Active solution is neat, good value, and the matching has been done for you....but like everything else, it is down to personal preference. I like the versatility of having amp and speakers separate.
CnoEvil said:
Quote: "There is no right and wrong, just preferable and less preferable"
Forgive me for being aghast and taking you to task on this, but with the greatest of respect, I disagree on your opinion here, completely.
Either there's a goal to all this box swapping and fiddling about, or there isn't.
HiFi or 'High Fidelity' used to mean the closest approach to the original sound, not the sound that most pleases me, like wine tasting or something.
So, for example shouldn't the pursuit of the lowest possible distortion and the least added colouration to the kit be a lauded goal?
If not, I say that Bose is better than anything you or your favourite dealer can offer, because I say so, and my opinion is just as valuable and great as yours, this being the internet and all, and given that we are all experts.
I also say so, because I heard it, and believe it as my ears never lie, and in the light of any confounding objective facts to bear on the matter, I'm therefore completely and unassailably right, and you've wasted a shed load of money - because when I hear your system, I will tell you it's c**p and you need to upgrade etc, etc, and etc., and sell it all and buy BOSE!
Especially If I'm a dealer selling said BOSE upgrade, or a HiFi writer lacking an education in physics, electrical engineering and psycho-acoustics, caught up in the same silly circle of consumer level mixing and matching to mask the various faults of connected equipment in the pursuit of the art of wine tasting re sound.
Now, I'm being rather tongue in cheek here, and stirring the pot, so please don't go and have a hissy fit or such...lol... by taking me too seriously, but I make the naughty comments to draw attention to how in my view, these sorts of discussions are about sound 'flavours' and nothing to do with HiFi per se.
Imagine if you will, if you were expected to purchase a brand new car by buying a bodyshell from say Ford, and then being expected at a consumer level, guided only by biased dealers, to try out say a Honda, or Toyota, or Peugeot engine with it perhaps; maybe some wheels and tyres from Toyota? - how about a transmission from a Smart Four x Four? - would that work OK in a Ford Mondeo bodyshell?? See how silly it all sounds?
I actually find this whole mix and matching of equipment at a consumer level to be a frankly hugely outdated and self defeating way of purchasing a HiFi system in the 21st century; the mix and match building model belongs in the 50's with the DIY industry from which HiFi has grown to be a large commercial enterprise profiting from the inexperience and relative ignorance of the general punter, and the touted but unsustainable notion that individual cottage industry specialists can somehow build a better mousetrap than a company who builds the whole box and caboodle using the most up to date design and construction methods, along with tertiary trained staff at the very highest levels, as against enthusiastic amateurs come business entreprenuers.
Frankly, I would buy a complete Yamaha, Sony, AV system for example, or BOSE...lol.. before any of these cottage industry so called 'high end' products in a suck it and see, mix and match fashion.
I respectfully suggest the OP, and anyone else starting from scratch to build a HiFi, and with a good budget as the OP has, do some reading of the likes of Floyd Toole, Sean Olive etc, and find out a thing or two about what REALLY works in a HiFi and acoustic/room context, and investigate some sort of properly finished and matched system by tertiary trained experts at the highest levels - not amateurs at an retail HiFi store level, or amateurs like myself on a HiFi forum giving otherwise well meaning advice - or for that matter the amateurs who also write about mixing and matching in the mainstream HiFi press, for clearly most are no more knowledgeable about electrical engineering, physics and psycho-acoustics than the buyers either. It is a case of the blind leading the blind in far too many cases in my humble opinion.
Of course, if mixing and matching kit to achieve a 'flavour' of sound, like wine tasting, is what you REALLY want in a system, then by all means ignore my comments, as it's a more than fair enough aspect to the hobby for a lot of people, and good on them for having that interest, only, don't tell me the results are about 'HiFi' and the closest aproach to the orignal sound unless you have some facts to back up the claim. And as I say, if it's really about wine tasting or sound 'flavour's I say save yourself a lot of money and buy BOSE - an awful lot of people do, and most of them are very very happy with the product. Most of them almost certainly don't read Hifi magazines either, and obsess endlessly about the kit and possible 'ugrades' - it does a job and they're very happy with the flavour of sound it offers - end of story really....
Heheh, I'll get off my soapbox and stop stirring now...lol
Best regards
John... :cheers:
JMacMan said:CnoEvil said:
Quote: "There is no right and wrong, just preferable and less preferable"
Forgive me for being aghast and taking you to task on this, but with the greatest of respect, I disagree on your opinion here, completely.
Either there's a goal to all this box swapping and fiddling about, or there isn't.
HiFi or 'High Fidelity' used to mean the closest approach to the original sound, not the sound that most pleases me, like wine tasting or something.
So, for example shouldn't the pursuit of the lowest possible distortion and the least added colouration to the kit be a lauded goal?
If not, I say that Bose is better than anything you or your favourite dealer can offer, because I say so, and my opinion is just as valuable and great as yours, this being the internet and all, and given that we are all experts.
I also say so, because I heard it, and believe it as my ears never lie, and in the light of any confounding objective facts to bear on the matter, I'm therefore completely and unassailably right, and you've wasted a shed load of money - because when I hear your system, I will tell you it's c**p and you need to upgrade etc, etc, and etc., and sell it all and buy BOSE!
Especially If I'm a dealer selling said BOSE upgrade, or a HiFi writer lacking an education in physics, electrical engineering and psycho-acoustics, caught up in the same silly circle of consumer level mixing and matching to mask the various faults of connected equipment in the pursuit of the art of wine tasting re sound.
Now, I'm being rather tongue in cheek here, and stirring the pot, so please don't go and have a hissy fit or such...lol... by taking me too seriously, but I make the naughty comments to draw attention to how in my view, these sorts of discussions are about sound 'flavours' and nothing to do with HiFi per se.
Imagine if you will, if you were expected to purchase a brand new car by buying a bodyshell from say Ford, and then being expected at a consumer level, guided only by biased dealers, to try out say a Honda, or Toyota, or Peugeot engine with it perhaps; maybe some wheels and tyres from Toyota? - how about a transmission from a Smart Four x Four? - would that work OK in a Ford Mondeo bodyshell?? See how silly it all sounds?
I actually find this whole mix and matching of equipment at a consumer level to be a frankly hugely outdated and self defeating way of purchasing a HiFi system in the 21st century; the mix and match building model belongs in the 50's with the DIY industry from which HiFi has grown to be a large commercial enterprise profiting from the inexperience and relative ignorance of the general punter, and the touted but unsustainable notion that individual cottage industry specialists can somehow build a better mousetrap than a company who builds the whole box and caboodle using the most up to date design and construction methods, along with tertiary trained staff at the very highest levels, as against enthusiastic amateurs come business entreprenuers.
Frankly, I would buy a complete Yamaha, Sony, AV system for example, or BOSE...lol.. before any of these cottage industry so called 'high end' products in a suck it and see, mix and match fashion.
I respectfully suggest the OP, and anyone else starting from scratch to build a HiFi, and with a good budget as the OP has, do some reading of the likes of Floyd Toole, Sean Olive etc, and find out a thing or two about what REALLY works in a HiFi and acoustic/room context, and investigate some sort of properly finished and matched system by tertiary trained experts at the highest levels - not amateurs at an retail HiFi store level, or amateurs like myself on a HiFi forum giving otherwise well meaning advice - or for that matter the amateurs who also write about mixing and matching in the mainstream HiFi press, for clearly most are no more knowledgeable about electrical engineering, physics and psycho-acoustics than the buyers either. It is a case of the blind leading the blind in far too many cases in my humble opinion.
Of course, if mixing and matching kit to achieve a 'flavour' of sound, like wine tasting, is what you REALLY want in a system, then by all means ignore my comments, as it's a more than fair enough aspect to the hobby for a lot of people, and good on them for having that interest, only, don't tell me the results are about 'HiFi' and the closest aproach to the orignal sound unless you have some facts to back up the claim. And as I say, if it's really about wine tasting or sound 'flavour's I say save yourself a lot of money and buy BOSE - an awful lot of people do, and most of them are very very happy with the product. Most of them almost certainly don't read Hifi magazines either, and obsess endlessly about the kit and possible 'ugrades' - it does a job and they're very happy with the flavour of sound it offers - end of story really....
Heheh, I'll get off my soapbox and stop stirring now...lol
Best regards
John... :cheers:
Or you could buy some AVI ADM 40s for £3200 and have done with it ! There I've said it , I'll go and wash my mouth out .
megatombomb said:
I Have the M-CR603 and orginally had the BX2's which i thought were terrible! Upgraded to Kef R100's and the difference is amazing the bass, clarity, musicality and soundstage are so much better, so moving up the Kef R range i'm sure you will love them!
Native_bon
Well-known member
- Nov 26, 2008
- 182
- 5
- 18,595
tino1104 said:
Goes to show speakers make the biggest change in sound!!.. As per the write up of the bose system totally agree with it... I may b looking at that nxt myself who knows. Am more about gettin the right sound for me & no one else!! Hey its all in the listening & trusting your own ears!!
Hi I run an m6i with scm40s and they sound fantastic there a wide sound stage very deep bass which is fast the mid range delivers vocals and aucoustic guitars like you have the artist in your living room the top end is sweet not hasrh or bright and the power is almost limitless . Also I agree with Cno go for the sound that you love after all its you that will have to live with it and a hifi that isn't playing your tunes how you love em will not get much use good luck in your searchmegatombomb said:
I share CnoEvil's "amp-first" approach to system building, though I also think this shouldn't be cast in stone - if you see and hear a particular pair of speakers that you fall in love with, then by all means start with the speakers. But remember the amp is heart of a system and in my experience can have a significant influence on sound quality.
And I wouldn't get too hung up on power specs. After more than 20 years of dabbling in audio - I'm 52 now - I've come to prefer the pure class A sound produced by the likes of Sugden, Accuphase and Musical Fidelity. None of these brands offer a Class A integrated amp that delivers more than 30-35 watts into 8 ohms but they are all able to drive most speakers with aplomb.
Good luck with your system building - I've always found that the process of researching, auditioning and discussing to be half the fun! :dance:
PS when I turned 30, I owned a Bose system! :boohoo:
And I wouldn't get too hung up on power specs. After more than 20 years of dabbling in audio - I'm 52 now - I've come to prefer the pure class A sound produced by the likes of Sugden, Accuphase and Musical Fidelity. None of these brands offer a Class A integrated amp that delivers more than 30-35 watts into 8 ohms but they are all able to drive most speakers with aplomb.
Good luck with your system building - I've always found that the process of researching, auditioning and discussing to be half the fun! :dance:
PS when I turned 30, I owned a Bose system! :boohoo:
JMacMan said:
There is really nothing to forgive, for a polite challenging of opinion.....and if you have followed some of my copious posts, you will know I don't take hissy fits, and try to respect everyone's opinion.
By "original sound" do you mean, as in "real life" or as in "the recording".
The alternative to taking my position is:
- Find the most neutral system you can afford...not at all easy, as what exactly constitutes "absolute neutral" (and every system adds something of its character).
- Find out how the piece sounded to the engineer who mastered it and what kit he played it through, so you can approximate it as closely as possible.
- Comb through all the specs to guide you, which means not only getting access to all of them, but then fully understanding them.
- Ignore whether you like the sound (or not), secure in the knowledge that it's accurate to the recording (which you haven't been able to prove conclusively anyway).
IMO. Getting fixated on the kit, rather than the music, is completely missing the point. To get a good reference point, I think it is necessary to go to some live, unmiked concerts, to see how the thing should sound....now go and listen to Active / Passive / Valve / Hybrid and a manner of different speakers, until you get the ones that bring you closest to the live experience. Simples.
Fact....if you don't like the way your system sounds, you will listen to it much less, unless of course you are into masochism. Surely, if you are going to spend your hard earned money, the very least you should expect to do, is enjoy it (by listening, rather than showing it off to your mates, as a piece of modern architecture). When asked why you bought it if you didn't like it, you can always blame some bloke on some forum, who said it was like buying a car, which seemed to make sense at the time!
I stand by my opinion that enjoyment has to be at the very heart of the buying decision. In my case, I think the distortion that a well designed, true Class A amp eliminates, brings the sound closer to the original. I have yet to see Actives driven by a built-in Class A amp.
IMO. Hifi and the love of music is, by it's nature, totally subjective, so you cannot (and should not) condemn (or ridicule) people for their opinion based on (nebulous) so called objective criteria.
:cheers:
Cno
I must say its been interesting to read the very differing views on why we chose our hifi components?
I respect but dont adhere to the argument that the best hi-fi on paper must be the best sounding is sadly misguided. Put simply when im listening to my music, its the music i want to hear! I have far more faith in my ears than any other source of information. I guess by my own argument asking for opinions on here on whether the items ive shortlisted sound good together is a completely pointless waste of all our time but its interesting non-the-less to get ideas and opinions and i thank you all for yours.
So ive done some more readings about the Sugden 21 amp and CD player. I will have to track down a demo but my un-educated brain is struggling to come to terms with how 30wpc into 8ohms feeding say a PMC23 (let alone a ATC40) will produce good results at moderately high listening levels especially trying to control the bass?!?
I must say the price of the Sugden setup appeals as i could put the spare towards vinyl (my follow up project) and i expect the sound of class A will give me exactly what i'm looking for.
I respect but dont adhere to the argument that the best hi-fi on paper must be the best sounding is sadly misguided. Put simply when im listening to my music, its the music i want to hear! I have far more faith in my ears than any other source of information. I guess by my own argument asking for opinions on here on whether the items ive shortlisted sound good together is a completely pointless waste of all our time but its interesting non-the-less to get ideas and opinions and i thank you all for yours.
So ive done some more readings about the Sugden 21 amp and CD player. I will have to track down a demo but my un-educated brain is struggling to come to terms with how 30wpc into 8ohms feeding say a PMC23 (let alone a ATC40) will produce good results at moderately high listening levels especially trying to control the bass?!?
I must say the price of the Sugden setup appeals as i could put the spare towards vinyl (my follow up project) and i expect the sound of class A will give me exactly what i'm looking for.
megatombomb said:
Make sure it's the SE version, which has more grunt......remember, not all 30Ws are created equal.
You will know if it copes when you compare it with other more powerful amps.
Native_bon said:
Gone alittle of topic but just like to point out that at well over double the cost and a somewhat newer design the Kef R100 probably should sound better than the MA BX2. I do think the MCR603/BX2 combo a bit lifeless and dull sometimes with some music but sometimes blows me away with others. Its never hard to listen to and due to the front ports on BX2 as opposed to rear on KEf i suspect much easier for positioning in spaces like mine!
If I was looking for an amp for the SCM40's at around £1.5k'ish then I would see if you could get a demo of the Denon PMA-2000AE.
Ah yes indeed must demo. I have found a company www.audioaffair.co.uk that seems to stock all the products ive been interested in bar the speakers bar perhaps another speaker contender in the shape of ProAc D28.
This topic has now consumed my entire weeked so i feel even more eager to go listen to things. Got a whole week off at the end of Feb but cant really wait that long to go demo'ing in my current mindframe :doh:
This topic has now consumed my entire weeked so i feel even more eager to go listen to things. Got a whole week off at the end of Feb but cant really wait that long to go demo'ing in my current mindframe :doh:
megatombomb said:
Sugden and Proac work very nicely together *....the D18 is also terrific.
Have fun with your demos and taking notes often helps sorting things out, especially if you listen to more than a couple of items. Don't jump at the first thing that sounds good, but work your way through as many candidates as possible.
* Edit. Snap
Have conjured up another system i bet would sound good to me but it can see no way of getting to try all three together. Bearing in mind i want good deep bass and dont want a subwoofer slowing things down and i want a detailed rhythmic and musical sound but without harshness i thought the following might go well together:
CD - Shanling CDT2000
Amp - Electrocompaniet ECI 5 mk2
Speakers - Monitor Audio GX300 (or ATC but i worry about not much bass until i try them)
At least they would all look stunning!
CD - Shanling CDT2000
Amp - Electrocompaniet ECI 5 mk2
Speakers - Monitor Audio GX300 (or ATC but i worry about not much bass until i try them)
At least they would all look stunning!
megatombomb said:
Great choice of amp and one of the best for its price (imo)......and for speaker matching, it's very versatile. I have heard it sounding well with Kef and Focal; and I know Electro rates it with PMC.
Hello again,
Going back to the Sugden A21se combos as they would come in under £4k i could stretch to the PMC twenty24? Any ideas how this might work?
Reading all the reviews of the Electrocompaniet amp suggests it may not be good for fast-paced complex music?! That depsite its power!
Its hard to find thoughts from actual owners of these esoteric products!!
Going back to the Sugden A21se combos as they would come in under £4k i could stretch to the PMC twenty24? Any ideas how this might work?
Reading all the reviews of the Electrocompaniet amp suggests it may not be good for fast-paced complex music?! That depsite its power!
Its hard to find thoughts from actual owners of these esoteric products!!
megatombomb said:
To be honest I thought the BX2's were very dull no matter what I played. Yes the R100's were £480 but worth every penny!! I would have paid the RRP of £600 for the sound difference they made.
As for positioning, the Kef's are far easier to position than the BX2's even though they are rear ported. Place the BX2's anywhere near a wall and the base is so boomy whereas the Kef's base is superb!
megatombomb said:
My advice is that once you have got your shortlist........forget about what people say and go listen, as you will find good and bad opinions about most products. You will quickly find where you stand on the sound, especially if you are comparing a few different brands.
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