MUSICRAFT
Well-known member
The use of a subwoofer is of paramount importance. For eg. pic. below shows KEF Reference 3's which are perfectly capable of good quality low frequencies. However this system features a pair of JL Audio Fathom f112 v2 subwoofers and a JL Audio CR-1 active subwoofer crossover with a crossover point to the main speakers set at 90Hz, so the Reference 3's speakers are relieved of the need to produce deep bass. This crossover point relieves the main speakers of the bottom two octaves (20Hz - 40Hz and 40Hz - 80Hz) and more which lowers distortion in the main speakers. The Fathom f112 v2’s do a much better job in this region. As a result the system is more transparent and dynamic from bottom to top, at low volumes as well as at higher volumes and the space in the original recording is much better defined than the KEF Reference 3's on their own.
With all things being equal a subwoofer is the most important component. Ideally frequencies up to 90Hz should be unburdened from the mains and this LF burden passed on to a subwoofer to deal with.
I believe to achieve 'realism' requires power and even if the mains go down to 20Hz a subwoofer should still be incorporated because in my experience a subwoofer can inject power into and energise a system like no other component can.
The goal is to effectively align, calibrate, dial in a subwoofer so that the subwoofer integrates seamlessly with the mains and disappears into the soundstage with a deep, sharp, tight fisted, fast and powerful punchy sub bass.
Jasonovich
Well-known member
Getting the subwoofer in perfect sync with the front speakers requires a bit of work.
Shifting the low frequency to the subwoofer allows the speakers to breathe and if done correctly the subwoofer will disappear.
I can see why this may not always appeal to the hifi purist, there's a school of thought that deems this as unnecessary. It is thought, a well balance system would negate the need for a subwoofer.
I also accepted this as defacto until I started to listen to people from the professional sector that took a different view and it made a lot of sense.
Its a tool that allows the speakers to work better.
My Adams T5V worked marvellously without the subwoofer, the lower frequency weren't as prounced but I can live with them comfortably.
Adding the subwoofer, gave more emphasis to the speakers mid range frequencies, while the bottom end was served perfectly by the subwoofer.
The integrity of the speakers sonic signature was largely intact, the subwoofer did add a little bit of its character but that was welcomed.
From my personal experience, the musical envelope was enlarged with the addition of the subwoofer.
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Jasonovich
Well-known member
I can't speak for hifi but what I think he was alluding to was subwoofer set up in Audio/Video or gaming setups, where the crackle of the bullets ricocheting off Arnies metal skull or the thunderous roar from giant tsunami waves crashing into the maze of blocks are epic drama he's referring to?
Subwoofers not just for movies. Like dogs, treat them well and they'll be your friend for life 🎥😊
Subwoofers not just for movies. Like dogs, treat them well and they'll be your friend for life 🎥😊
Ah ha, now I understand, thanks Jason, for enlightening me. I tend to forget that sound systems are used for gaming, not being a 'gamer' myself.
I wonder if a subwoofer would add to the dramatic effects in Beethoven's Fifth Symphony.
I wonder if a subwoofer would add to the dramatic effects in Beethoven's Fifth Symphony.
Jasonovich
Well-known member
RobSys
Well-known member
Even with classical music, a sub will add a lot of nuance and background fill. The sound will be "fuller"....
My stand mount Theophany speakers will go down to 45 Hz which is similar to the Kef's but still the sub makes a huge difference - even though the sub only goes down to 27 Hz.
Also, keep in mind that two mediocre subs don't make a single good sub...
Thanks for your thoughts. I think on balance with all the thoughts on subs from those with the actual experience of using them and hearing the difference they make to the overall sound a subwoofer has to be on my list of additions to my set up. 👍🏻
Jasonovich
Well-known member
It's also worth exploring floor standers as an option. You can sell the KEF's for a very good price. If you like the KEF's signature and tonality, the Focals are very similar
Thanks again Jason, you've been most helpful and I value your advice.It's also worth exploring floor standers as an option. You can sell the KEF's for a very good price. If you like the KEF's signature and tonality, the Focals are very similar
davidf
Well-known member
Just bear in mind that subs need careful room placement and room correction in order to get the best out of them, and certainly to get the best out of them in any given room. Most hi-fi amplifiers won’t provide bass management or EQ, and badly set up subs will be a negative addition, regardless of the cost.
For the benefit some subs can bring, I personally don’t see the point in adding subs that cost virtually as much as the speakers themselves. Don’t overlook the fundamentals - get the speakers right first.
For the benefit some subs can bring, I personally don’t see the point in adding subs that cost virtually as much as the speakers themselves. Don’t overlook the fundamentals - get the speakers right first.
MUSICRAFT
Well-known member
Hence why over the years I've repeatedly emphasised the critical importance of aligning, calibration and dialling in.
Indeed.
Good to hear
A subwoofer is the most important component
Thank you very much for your advice. I'm very new to all this. A hi-fi to me was always source, amp, speakers, being the oldy that I am. I certainly don't necessarily even want a sub. For some reason in my mind I didn't like the idea of floor standing speakers, I prefer the look of smaller speakers on a stand. But, really perhaps floor standers are better if one wants the speakers to produce the lower frequencies that many 'bookshelf' speakers can't manage.
Having said that, the KEF LS 50 Metas that I'm using sound fine to me. I'm not really what you'd call a bass fiend because I don't listen to the kind of music that requires huge bass, I just like to be able to hear the bass guitar properly or the double basses and lower instruments in an orchestra. Add to all this the fact that I'm not made of money and can't afford to keep changing gear for the sake of it. I guess from now on I must think carefully before making any more purchases. Anyhow, I appreciate very much all the very helpful advice and thoughts I've received from the people on this forum.
👍🏻
landco
Well-known member
Today I sold the KEF LS 50 Meta speakers. What a relief.
Now I'm beginning to understand what speakers I want.
landco
Well-known member
I bought a set of B&W 805 Matrix stand mount speakers. Excellent speakers in my view but not quite enough bass for my liking.
Today I took delivery of a B&W PV1 Subwoofer. It took me 20 minutes or so after messing with phase, frequency cut in, and sub volume.
I'm amazed. The sound now is excellent. The punch it's added to the drums and bass is incredible. No regrets whatsoever.
I wouldn't necessarily say that if you need a sub, you have the wrong speakers. Not at all. Whith the Marantz Model 30 that goes down to 10 Herz this set up is now exactly what I hoped it would be.
I didn't have the trouble setting up the subwoofer that people speak of.
Maybe I was lucky, but it all works brilliantly.
RobSys
Well-known member
Jasonovich
Well-known member
There is an old school of thought who hold the view that if there's a need for a subwoofer then you have the wrong speakers.
It's a view I held for a long time but I done a 360°, I actually believe regardless of the speakers you have, a SW actually eliviates the low frequency workload from your speakers, allowing the speakers to work better in its designated frequency spectrum i.e. its own comfort zone.
SW just require a bit of fiddling to achieve synchronisation 'invisibility' with the main speakers.
WayneKerr
Well-known member
With your fondness for classical I thought it would only be a matter of time before you explored the sub route. Standmounts are great but they do lack the scale needed for classical, my opinion of course.
landco
Well-known member
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