Sub woofer advice

trelello

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Hi,

I was hoping someone could set me straight on what I should and shouldn't expect from a budget subwoofer in a HiFi setup. I currently run an NAD 533 (With an Ortofon 2M cartridge), and a laptop via an Arcam Miniblink through a Marantz PM66SE amplifier and a pair of Mission 753 speakers. There's a lot I like about this setup, but there is a noticable lack of bass. Listening to Bowie's Blackstar through my friend's bookshelf Marantz speakers recently, I was impressed by how punchy and focused the bass was at a relatively low volume and decided I should do something about my own setup. Today I received a new Wharfdale Diamond SW150 sub, which I'd been looking forward to but am now rather disapointed with. The instructions recommend two ways of connecting the sub to an amp without a dedicated sub out put - either by connecting it to the speaker outputs on the amp (which are already pretty busy as my speakers are bi-wired), or by connecting the sub to the low frequency inputs on my speakers. I have tried both, and in both cases I have found that the sub does little or nothing at the volume I usually play my HiFi at (too loud to comfortably hold a conversation, not loud enough to start a fight with the neighbours). I have tried disconnecting the speakers altogether and just playing the sub, and I have found that it comes to life when the volume is quite high, but even then it sounds muddy and blurred. Have I got a dud sub, am I doing something wrong, or do I have the wrong expectations?

Thanks in advance,

Stephen
 
trelello said:
Hi,

I was hoping someone could set me straight on what I should and shouldn't expect from a budget subwoofer in a HiFi setup. I currently run an NAD 533 (With an Ortofon 2M cartridge), and a laptop via an Arcam Miniblink through a Marantz PM66SE amplifier and a pair of Mission 753 speakers. There's a lot I like about this setup, but there is a noticable lack of bass. Listening to Bowie's Blackstar through my friend's bookshelf Marantz speakers recently, I was impressed by how punchy and focused the bass was at a relatively low volume and decided I should do something about my own setup. Today I received a new Wharfdale Diamond SW150 sub, which I'd been looking forward to but am now rather disapointed with. The instructions recommend two ways of connecting the sub to an amp without a dedicated sub out put - either by connecting it to the speaker outputs on the amp (which are already pretty busy as my speakers are bi-wired), or by connecting the sub to the low frequency inputs on my speakers. I have tried both, and in both cases I have found that the sub does little or nothing at the volume I usually play my HiFi at (too loud to comfortably hold a conversation, not loud enough to start a fight with the neighbours). I have tried disconnecting the speakers altogether and just playing the sub, and I have found that it comes to life when the volume is quite high, but even then it sounds muddy and blurred. Have I got a dud sub, am I doing something wrong, or do I have the wrong expectations?

Thanks in advance,

Stephen

Your sub has a volume control does it not? I presume you have played with this.

Your Missions where never for bass creeks but the subwoofer should counter this, failing all else I can only suggest that your amp is somehow lacking. What amp does your friend have? Can you try the sub out on his system?

Oh, also I wouldn't bother bi-wiring those Missions.
 

trelello

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Thanks a lot for the reply Al ears. The sub does have a volume control, along with a phase switch, and a cut off control. i have played with all of these while listening to different sources, and ended up with the results described above. So if there is a solution there, its one that requires a good deal more understanding than I have brought to it all so far.

I'm not sure of the precise model of my friend's amp, but it's a late 70's JVC. As to my own amp, I have also used the 753s with an Audiolabs 8000a, which didn't bring any more bass to them.

As to bi-wiring, I bought the missions second hand and I'm actually not sure how to run them non-biwired - perhaps they originally had something to bridge the inputs for a mono-wired setup, but they don't seem to have anything like that now.
 

Thompsonuxb

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The pm66se sounds like it's reached its limits with the 753's - good quality speakers by the way and very capable. They will improve with amplification.

Try repositioning the speakers - distance apart or to walls etc and working on the position of the sub too.

One of the issues with an under powered amp with 'power hungry speakers' is bass 'suckout' which may be what you have.
 

the_master66

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I would also advise experimenting with placement as this can have a big effect on bass output and quality - experiement and make small changes each time.

The marantz looks a little weak for the Missions biamping using the Audiolab 8000a on the tweeters and an 8000p on the bass would probably help a lot.

Subs in my experience are hard to integrate properly for music and unless of very high quality tend to slow everything down adding more bass but often worse quality bass...
 

trelello

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Great, thank you Thompsonuxb, that wouldn't have occured to me (I don't have any great knowledge of hifi at all, I've just been slowly cobbling things together out of a combination of separates I bought as a teenager in the nineties and items from eBay). Although, as I mentioned above, I have also run the speakers with the Audiolab 8000a (which has now developed a fault - every now and again it will cut out as if something has been tripped), and they weren't any bassier with that either, and I would assume that's an altogether more muscular amplifier. Would the drain the speakers are putting on the amp mean that less was going to the sub also, or have I taken the metaphor overly litterally? What sort of amp do you think would be a better match for the Missions?
 

trelello

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Thank you the_master66, the Audiolab 8000p suggestion is definitely intriguing, as I can see that its not so much more expensive than the sub, although it would entail my getting the 8000a fixed, which I guess would add another £100 or so to it all (although I have been tempted to send it off for one of those recap/upgrade deals I've seen advertised on eBay, so maybe that would be a way of getting it working and improved in one go). As to the limitations of budget subs, today's frustration has definitely got me wondering what I can hope to achieve this way.
 

Thompsonuxb

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trelello said:
Thanks a lot for the reply Al ears. The sub does have a volume control, along with a phase switch, and a cut off control. i have played with all of these while listening to different sources, and ended up with the results described above. So if there is a solution there, its one that requires a good deal more understanding than I have brought to it all so far. 

I'm not sure of the precise model of my friend's amp, but it's a late 70's JVC. As to my own amp, I have also used the 753s with an Audiolabs 8000a, which didn't bring any more bass to them.

As to bi-wiring, I bought the missions second hand and I'm actually not sure how to run them non-biwired - perhaps they originally had something to bridge the inputs for a mono-wired setup, but they don't seem to have anything like that now.

Honestly trelello don't get drawn into the bi-wire thing.

Checked the specs on your amp 50wpc , 90w power consumption.

You need a bigger amp - those missions are genuinely good speakers.

If you do upgrade the amp do take note of the power consumption/ aka operating power figure, its more important than you realise.

Look second hand.

Amps around the £700 to £1000 (when new) mark is what I'd suggest - Audiolab amps are inconsistent in my limited experience of them

Or if you can try a Musical Fidelity M3si with your speakers (home demo if possible) to give yourself an idea what your speakers are capable of.

Good luck... :)
 

trelello

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The M3si certainly looks tempting, but it would be a difficult expense to smuggle past my partner (the perils of sharing of your life with an accountancy lecturer). When you say you've found Audiolabs to be inconsisten, do you differen examples of the same model are inconsistent with one another, or that they work better with some types of music than others, or something else entirely? Going in a different direction, do you suppose something from the seventies would be worth a go, I hear that a lot of amps from the period couldn't be described as HiFi per se, but that they can be a lot of fun.
 

Thompsonuxb

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Ref Audiolab amps the internal build quality - I demod an 8200a at home and it was woeful. Recently demo'd a 8300a and it was weak compared to the other amps on demo. But heard one at the Bristol hifi show with the New Mission lx range and it sounded great. The reviews on the net of their amps vary too - some impressed others underwhelmed.

Do a search you'll see.

Old amps is a good option.

I myself have Mission 782se speakers and get great results using an old Yamaha ax-620 receiver (but how we like to hear music may differ)

Best bet give yourself a budget search the 'ebays' etc and use the net to research possibilities.....

There are bargains out there.( the older the more chance of failure though)

Ref bi-wire - you can cut short links of one of your current cables and connect the posts on the back of your speakers so you only have one length of wire running from your amp to speakers.

Not worth getting bogged down with ref benefits, let's get you a sound worthy of your speakers first.....

Try putting the speakers in free space - temporarily, see if you hear a difference.
 
trelello said:
Oh and as to biwiring, as I say, rather embarrasingly, I'm not sure how to run them any other way.
You can easily Google various diagrams. You probably have this set up (thanks, Richer Sounds) https://www.richersounds.com/static/Bi-wire%20Tips.pdf

When new, your speakers will have had little metal plates joining the red and black terminal together. Replacements are often sold as jumper leads, or a similar term. Or you can use some ordinary twin flex and link the 2 reds and 2 black terminals, then running twin speaker wire to one set of inputs from your amp.

Once you've done that, there are tweaks others will recommend about wiring diagonally.

As to the sub, I'm afraid they are not my choice at almost any price, and cheap ones rarely make sense to me for music. Exploding planets are another matter, and they can be fine for cinema systems! Most essentially, check your speakers are in phase, otherwise one sucks while the other blows, and bass will vanish and stereo sounds washy.
 

davedotco

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I think you are most likely confusing bass extension, which is what a sub can help with, with bass punch, which is more a function of 'mid bass' rather than sub bass.

As suggested, go back to basics and check your wiring, that's the first thing. If nothing changes then you need to change the amp or the speakers, it's a power issue.

Whether you change to a more powerful amplifier or to a (smaller) punchier speaker is up to you. I doubt if a sub will be of much help.
 

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