Star connected plug strips

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Ellis do you have any contact with some of theses people like Audioquest is there a way Ellis you can ask the question about proof I understand you have heard the proof for your self .

but a lot of us have never been to a hifi show to find out if there is a difference in sound so is there a way in getting into contact to find out .?

as I am sure it would interest people on here and including myself

Obviously theses companies would have a white paper or some sort of documents of the testing process involved in this .

You don't need to attend a hifi show to know that mains stuff doesn't affect performance. You only need to know how things work.

i think this sentence from farty boy sums it up Ellis. Don’t go out anywhere and you will learn zilch and challenge no pre conceived views you hold, for we are all better off as humans if we get stuck in our ways as ‘old farts’ (sarcastic).

Oh and old fart, I met Ellis at the indulgence show very briefly and my impression is he is seriously enthusiastic about hi fi and av and probably knows a lot more in ‘experiences’ than lots on here, certainly yourself on the topic of conditioning, power bars, and cabling etc.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

How many more times do you have to be told before it sinks in?

It won’t. It’s called disconfirmation bias. The more his ideas and beliefs are challenged and debunked, the more entrenched his views will become and the more effort he’ll put into refuting facts.

thats an incredibly ill conceived thing to say if you’ve no idea what my and thousands, if not millions, of others experiences are. It’s a conspiracy theory view, which is just plain ignorant. If anything your doing this bias, because your view is out of kilter with what all these people think from experience, but you still deny them of their experiences by spouting the stuff you do. Actually that’s beyond Ill conceived. It’s arrogant.

 

[Craig M.]

Ok.

 

[Oldphrt]

How many more times do you have to be told before it sinks in?

It won’t. It’s called disconfirmation bias. The more his ideas and beliefs are challenged and debunked, the more entrenched his views will become and the more effort he’ll put into refuting facts.

thats an incredibly ill conceived thing to say if you’ve no idea what my and thousands, if not millions, of others experiences are. It’s a conspiracy theory view, which is just plain ignorant. If anything your doing this bias, because your view is out of kilter with what all these people think from experience, but you still deny them of their experiences by spouting the stuff you do. Actually that’s beyond Ill conceived. It’s arrogant.

You are proving Craig's point.

 

[Deleted member 108165]

I’m sorry Ellis but your camera must be rigged too. Lol.

When the argument is lost, they start reverting to conspiracy theories, bias, referring to double blind tests. Lots of cards up their sleaves. Most intelligent reasonable people just don’t buy it. A bit like someone telling someone else 9/11 was rigged by the US government.

No we don't, and you shouldn't bother with it either. It's all pure bunkum, pseudo science and marketing aimed at gullible fools. But I don't have a 20K system so what would I know.

 

[ellisdj]

I don't know Sabbath mate to be honest, I am sure they would have access to it on their websites go and look.

That is the purposes of the show demos to show people and let them have a listen.

When you demo things for your HiFi system do you ask for white papers for them?
Did you read a white paper on your speakers for example?
Or the amp? I have only ever seen 1 from KEF.

Did you see any measurements for any of the kit you own.
Do you know how your speakers measure in your room in fact does anyone except insider have any idea? That is the truth of what you hear and most people have super strong opinions one what does and doesn't make a difference and yet overlook that important step anyway.

I bet you listened and decided and if someone told you your speakers measure poorly will you think they sound bad all of a sudden?

Isotek demonstrate their products reduce noise on the mains, they demonstrate the problem is there to begin with.

They then demonstrate how the products affect sound quality and the only way to do this is to play music and let people listen.
There is no other way to assess sound quality other than listening I am aware of?

Puritan Labs were demonstrating their products reducing noise also I have that on camera as well

 

[ifor]

How many more times do you have to be told before it sinks in?

It won’t. It’s called disconfirmation bias. The more his ideas and beliefs are challenged and debunked, the more entrenched his views will become and the more effort he’ll put into refuting facts.

For a moment I thought you were talking about Brexshit.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I think you are proving my point.

but let’s put this into some perspective and you ask people who’ve got very decent hi fi and you put it up against old farts ‘budget sony’ it’s pretty obvious why he holds the view he does that these things don’t work, because there isn’t a snowball in hells chance of it ever benefiting the budget sony, not least he’s never bothered trying. He has just come on here from the other forum to put people down.

as for ellis’ experiments on kef reference which are considerably better than ‘budget sony’, it’s obvious why Ellis can note marked changes, as with me with decent speakers and amps, as with cnoevil. Basically anyone with decent gear. I’d like to know what all the doubters own, as when you push them, you too can take a view it probably won’t benefit power conditioning, just like other stuff I have that doesn’t. The odd ones are those who have great gear, but never try, for they are probably missing out.

 

[Deleted member 108165]

Where's Gazzip when you need him? He has without doubt the best hi-fi set-up on here by a country mile and his views on cables tend to match the majority of sensible people on here... they're not worth the expense. Then again why draw him into yet another cable debate.

 

[Oldphrt]

Ellis do you have any contact with some of theses people like Audioquest is there a way Ellis you can ask the question about proof I understand you have heard the proof for your self .

but a lot of us have never been to a hifi show to find out if there is a difference in sound so is there a way in getting into contact to find out .?

as I am sure it would interest people on here and including myself

Obviously theses companies would have a white paper or some sort of documents of the testing process involved in this .

You don't need to attend a hifi show to know that mains stuff doesn't affect performance. You only need to know how things work.

i think this sentence from farty boy sums it up Ellis. Don’t go out anywhere and you will learn zilch and challenge no pre conceived views you hold, for we are all better off as humans if we get stuck in our ways as ‘old farts’ (sarcastic).

Oh and old fart, I met Ellis at the indulgence show very briefly and my impression is he is seriously enthusiastic about hi fi and av and probably knows a lot more in ‘experiences’ than lots on here, certainly yourself on the topic of conditioning, power bars, and cabling etc.

Who said anything about not going out anywhere? Knowing how, say, an amplifier works rules out the need to listen to pointless aftermarket nonsense like mains leads, giving you more time to listen to the most important part of a hifi, the speakers. So a demo fooled Ellis. He isn't the first, and he won't be the last.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

That’s a pretty bad thing to say, and it makes you just come across as arrogant. How on Earth was he fooled?

 

[cheeseboy]

They don’t rig demos.

I literally put a link in there to show that demos do get rigged - even by big companies like apple. Maybe you missed it, I'll give you the benifit of the doubt. Either way, that statement is wrong.

here's another one for you

https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/audioquest-hdmi-audio-rigged-demo-exposed-and-addressed-in-open-letter.97696/

You just have to be totally objective and experienced of the cables, and powerbars, with no ego attached to how good you think your system is. I suspect some pursuing these arguments have never tried too, or just think the system is much better than it is,

eh? You've literally just contradicted yourself.

 

[cheeseboy]

when you unplug something with one cable and plug it into something else how can that be a trick.

10 people all sitting there less than a few metres away in a semi circle around the system with a handsome man standing there filming you in 4k. How can you trick that? If you could you wouldn't work in HiFi

again, read what I said. I didn't say the demo *was* rigged, you asked for a reason why people heard what they did and I said *it could have been rigged* and since you have no way to prove otherwise, it's just as valid a claim.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

They don’t rig demos. If you are inquisitive enough you can look around the back and see what it’s connected up too.

But I’d wouldn’t bother Ellis, these people are not to be persuaded.

At the end of the day there are plenty of systems that get benefits at a certain level. My theory is using power bars and conditioners in many systems just don’t cut it, and I own some of these systems, and other systems that do very much benefit being Very well engineered. Can you imagine a power bar for my chrome cast audio???

For example old fart is running a ‘budget sony’. I’ve got ‘budget Sony’ and it makes damm all differnence putting budget power bars and conditioners on some of these devices.

You just have to be totally objective and experienced of the cables, and powerbars, with no ego attached to how good you think your system is. I suspect some pursuing these arguments have never tried too, or just think the system is much better than it is, such that if a powerbar or conditioner etc doesn’t cut it in their system, they look to the conditioner not cutting it rather than thinking that a conditioner may work in another system. I think it’s bloody sad, because these firms rely on employment of people, and if this diatribe of stuff gets put on the Internet, the gullible start believing it. That particularly gets my goat with these debates.

It can make ****** all difference on anything, as long as the mains is connected. No change in sound quality is possible. How many more times do you have to be told before it sinks in? Good grief, you are so annoying.

we have to be told as our experiences are set by those who profess to know more about things then we do. Plain, undignified, unapologetic...... wtf??

 

[cheeseboy]

When the argument is lost, they start reverting to conspiracy theories, bias, referring to double blind tests.

what's wrong with double blind tests? Bias has been proven time and time again, even under scientific conditions, unlike the claims made about cables. Now if you have some evidence to contrary instead of just your opinion, please share, I'm all ears.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Because the ones conducted and ‘published’ online show ****** all. And I’ve done double blind tests with a friend and it was very easy to discern between two speaker cables, one performing well and to taste, another performing bad, and not to taste. Bias doesn’t happen when there is no reason to be fooled or to confirm bias to ourselves. Why on earth would I submit to bias, if it sounds worse or not as good, for the sake of shelling out hundreds. I’ve just given back two power cables I don’t want.

 

[cheeseboy]

When you demo things for your HiFi system do you ask for white papers for them? Did you read a white paper on your speakers for example? Or the amp? I have only ever seen 1 from KEF.

Did you see any measurements for any of the kit you own. Do you know how your speakers measure in your room in fact does anyone except insider have any idea? That is the truth of what you hear and most people have super strong opinions one what does and doesn't make a difference and yet overlook that important step anyway.

I bet you listened and decided and if someone told you your speakers measure poorly will you think they sound bad all of a sudden?

Isotek demonstrate their products reduce noise on the mains, they demonstrate the problem is there to begin with.

They then demonstrate how the products affect sound quality and the only way to do this is to play music and let people listen. There is no other way to assess sound quality other than listening I am aware of?

apologies, I have edited just to make it a bit shorter. I actually agree with you. I don't look for white papers etc. However, there's two aspects to this. 1) if there is a difference that can be heard, it will be measurable and therefore 2) if a manufacturer wants to make a claim, they should be able to show the evidence to back it up.

Doesn't mean that people have to read it, or that I think they should read it, but it should be made available to make sure that their claims are quantifiable and not just made up. Surely that benefits everybody on both sides of the coin and even those in the middle no?

 

[jmjones]

Put it all away chaps before this thread gets locked.

If you find “mains wiring” has an effect for you, great and good luck. If not, fine too.

In my experience, mains wiring, power cords and the like have made no difference. The only time I’ve heard a difference was changing bell wire for decent speaker cable.

The only technical reasoning I can think of that would explain any of the changes sometimes described is some form of removal of interference. Possibly my abode is less susceptible to such differences.

And as for you need expensive equipment to hear a difference - just plain snobbery. My kit was hardly budget when I bought it, and my experiments did nothing but cost me a few quid to try it. There was no improvement. If there was something in “cleaner power”, it would manifest itself equally on cheaper kit.

 

[Oldphrt]

I think you are proving my point.

but let’s put this into some perspective and you ask people who’ve got very decent hi fi and you put it up against old farts ‘budget sony’ it’s pretty obvious why he holds the view he does that these things don’t work, because there isn’t a snowball in hells chance of it ever benefiting the budget sony, not least he’s never bothered trying. He has just come on here from the other forum to put people down.

as for ellis’ experiments on kef reference which are considerably better than ‘budget sony’, it’s obvious why Ellis can note marked changes, as with me with decent speakers and amps, as with cnoevil. Basically anyone with decent gear. I’d like to know what all the doubters own, as when you push them, you too can take a view it probably won’t benefit power conditioning, just like other stuff I have that doesn’t. The odd ones are those who have great gear, but never try, for they are probably missing out.

How can anyone take any notice of the opinion of someone that can hear differences that can't possibly exist? Because there is nothing anything can do to the mains that will change the performance. It really isn't possible, because all traces of the mains waveform are removed by the power supply.

 

[cheeseboy]

Because the ones conducted and ‘published’ online show ****** all. And I’ve done double blind tests with a friend and it was very easy to discern between two speaker cables, one performing well and to taste, another performing bad, and not to taste. Bias doesn’t happen when there is no reason to be fooled or to confirm bias to ourselves. Why on earth would I submit to bias, if it sounds worse or not as good, for the sake of shelling out hundreds. I’ve just given back two power cables I don’t want.

so no evidence at all, just a random internet opinion, it's what I thought. Shame.

OMG you are really claiming that you are immune to bias? I'm out. The hubris and arrogance is too much.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I don't know Sabbath mate to be honest, I am sure they would have access to it on their websites go and look.

That is the purposes of the show demos to show people and let them have a listen.

When you demo things for your HiFi system do you ask for white papers for them? Did you read a white paper on your speakers for example? Or the amp? I have only ever seen 1 from KEF.

Did you see any measurements for any of the kit you own. Do you know how your speakers measure in your room in fact does anyone except insider have any idea? That is the truth of what you hear and most people have super strong opinions one what does and doesn't make a difference and yet overlook that important step anyway.

I bet you listened and decided and if someone told you your speakers measure poorly will you think they sound bad all of a sudden?

Isotek demonstrate their products reduce noise on the mains, they demonstrate the problem is there to begin with.

They then demonstrate how the products affect sound quality and the only way to do this is to play music and let people listen. There is no other way to assess sound quality other than listening I am aware of?

Puritan Labs were demonstrating their products reducing noise also I have that on camera as well

yes I did with my speakers as I found out that the measurements of speaker placement was different on the white paper then the instruction manual but they are available on the Dali website and my amplifier the measurements are available on audioholics as they seem to test a lot of stuff on there .

but totally honest with you I do not understand half of it and I doubt most people do as well I basically pick out the bits I do understand as I buy by what sounds good to me and not really going by the measurements on how speakers or amplifier will sound and even if what I have measured poor I would still of brought what I have as it comes down to personal choice .

 

[Oldphrt]

Because the ones conducted and ‘published’ online show ****** all. And I’ve done double blind tests with a friend and it was very easy to discern between two speaker cables, one performing well and to taste, another performing bad, and not to taste. Bias doesn’t happen when there is no reason to be fooled or to confirm bias to ourselves. Why on earth would I submit to bias, if it sounds worse or not as good, for the sake of shelling out hundreds. I’ve just given back two power cables I don’t want.

Speaker cables yes, because it's very important that they are low resistance. Mains stuff no.

 

[ellisdj]

Gazzips system uses a P10 Power Regenerator from PS Audio and I would be able to demonstrate to him the benefits of other mains products and power cables with a demo same as I have Dirac Live, PC audio and Acoustic treatments galore . I havent yet because I have spent enough of his money and he has a baby on the way after all.

 

[Oldphrt]

They don’t rig demos. If you are inquisitive enough you can look around the back and see what it’s connected up too.

But I’d wouldn’t bother Ellis, these people are not to be persuaded.

At the end of the day there are plenty of systems that get benefits at a certain level. My theory is using power bars and conditioners in many systems just don’t cut it, and I own some of these systems, and other systems that do very much benefit being Very well engineered. Can you imagine a power bar for my chrome cast audio???

For example old fart is running a ‘budget sony’. I’ve got ‘budget Sony’ and it makes damm all differnence putting budget power bars and conditioners on some of these devices.

You just have to be totally objective and experienced of the cables, and powerbars, with no ego attached to how good you think your system is. I suspect some pursuing these arguments have never tried too, or just think the system is much better than it is, such that if a powerbar or conditioner etc doesn’t cut it in their system, they look to the conditioner not cutting it rather than thinking that a conditioner may work in another system. I think it’s bloody sad, because these firms rely on employment of people, and if this diatribe of stuff gets put on the Internet, the gullible start believing it. That particularly gets my goat with these debates.

It can make ****** all difference on anything, as long as the mains is connected. No change in sound quality is possible. How many more times do you have to be told before it sinks in? Good grief, you are so annoying.

we have to be told as our experiences are set by those who profess to know more about things then we do. Plain, undignified, unapologetic...... wtf??

Always listen to experts my child. Don't remain ignorant all your life.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Cheeseboy. No i tell you what I wouldn’t claim that....say I went to specsavers as a doddery old man and had a hearing test which found I needed a hearing aid. I came back for a new aid, which a doctor told me would give better sound. In fact it was an identical hearing aid. Being told it was better I might be biased and start hearing it better, because it’s come from someone who reasonable people would trust - a doctor. That’s really trickery, and this bias has been found to happen with hearing aids. It happens in alternative medicines too. But how on earth can I have that same trust for Dave the hi fi salesman. I’d be an idiot if I did. I so want to make my own mind up, that’s all that matters. Don’t you get this or do you just get sold stuff.