Speaker stands

[thewinelake.]

It's looking likely that I'll be acquiring some small speakers shortly (eg. B&W CM1 or Emit M10 or something like that). Speaker stands are important to get the best from them, but I'm intrigued to know how some stands are better than others.

In the past I've owned some Heybrook stands for my old Tannoy Mercuries, but then (when forced to have smaller speakers for a more family-orientated lounge) made my own for some JPW Gold monitors. My design was to take 4 planks of wood (it was pine) and glue/screw them into a kind of square tube (that matched the plan view of the speakers) and then fill them with cement. The idea was to put spikes on the bottom and blu tac on the top, but in the end I didn't bother with the spikes. Now I never compared them to commercial metal stands, but they seemed rock solid and certainly acoustically inert.

But I do wonder how they might compare to something like the Atacama stands.

What experience do people here have of different stands under "bookshelf" speakers?

Edit: There are some cracking threads on various fora over the years discussing this - seems that there's no consensus on what the purpose of stands is other than to get the tweeter to the same level as the ears. Some talk about isolating the speaker from the stand/floor and others talk about anchoring the speaker to the floor. Others suggest that a solid stand acts as a 'beard' to the baffle and can help with certain designs of speaker (and presumably hinder others). Clearly a resonant stand is a bad idea.

Edit 2: I read the review of the WHF award-winning Atacama Moseco 6, but it failed to mention what the comparison point was when saying things like "We’re impressed with how weighty and dynamic these stands make our system sound". Compared to what???

 

[nopiano]

There are varying schools on stands, not least because speakers aren't all made the same. At its simplest, some damp the cabinets as much as possible with braces, filling, and laminates. Others use the natural resonance and tune the rest accordingly.

To reflect this, your speakers may be better when 'grounded' by a heavy stand, or they might be better supported by a lightweight or open frame stand. (This means a stand can be too heavy!)

A good starting point is with whatever the manufacturer makes or recommends, and what your dealer can demonstrate.

 

[thewinelake.]

I'd be curious to know of any results from B&W CM1s.

I do wonder what dealers would suggest. Demo's tend to be conducted on a set pair of stands. Anything else would be huge hassle!

 

[Gray]

In my cheapskate days I made my own open frame stands out of the steel frame from underneath a large table. (So didn't put in as much DIY effort as you seem to have done)

After that I bought some Atacama SE24s which I packed full of stand.

Can't give you a comparison as different speakers were on each. Can though say that current SE24s could hardly be heavier and more solid and that bass quality is good. But that would be due to the (PMC twenty 21) speakers as much as anything else.

The latest Atacama's look better than the original industrial looking SE24s (not hard) but I'm luckily in a position where I only have my own priorities to consider when making hi-fi (or any other) decisions.

You may have seen the recent thread discussing stands where it was said that heavy stands did not necessarily equal better bass, (Different, not always better, was the opinion)

Just stable, non-resonant stands at the appropriate height for you, should do it. Though I will always be of the opinion that there's no such thing as a speaker stand that's too heavy, which is why I like your idea of using concrete.

 

[Gray]

Which would you prefer - a speaker that requires a stand (whatever it's weight) to 'tune' it's sound or one that is happy on any rigid, non-resonant stand? Given the choice, I'll take the latter, because I say, all other things being equal, that's the better speaker. (And yes I know that the stand is part of the design in some cases)

None of us would doubt that the listening environment (furnishings, obstructions, boundaries) will always have more influence than any half decent stand on the resultant sound quality.

 

[thewinelake.]

But they're not.

My personal taste seems to be towards standmounted speakers, at least at around the £500 level.

 

[thewinelake.]

I'm wondering about trying to build something like this:

 

[andyjm]

I'm wondering about trying to build something like this

As a general rule, you don't want the speaker to wobble. Picture the bass cone moving out. Along with accelerating the cone itself, it has to push against the air in front to the cone which provides resistance. The driver achieves this force by pushing back against the speaker enclosure.

The mass of the enclosure and the support provided by the stand stop the enclosure moving backward. The argument is that if the enclosure was free to move backard, it would counteract some of the forward motion of the cone and impact the bass response.

I am not convinced that the stand plays much part in comparison to the mass of the enclosure, but I do think it is good practice to have the speaker firmly supported.

Unless you want to isolate the speaker from a resonant floor, I wouldn't bother with your design.

 

[thewinelake.]

But seeing the Townsend Seismic thing made me wonder about experimenting with sandwiches of board and squash balls or inner tubes. The floor in our place is a suspended wooden floor.

I must admit that this is all more about curiosity and a need to satisfy the inner geek....

 

[nopiano]

Yes, you do need a rigid mounting. That makes the most difference, for the reasons andy states above.

With a suspended floor, you want to avoid exciting the resonant space underneath, if possible. At one time, putting regular screws into the floor and spiking a stand to that was a solution. If they are nice floor boards, I'd start with coins (10p size should be enough) with speck of blutack to hold them in place, letting gravity take over once the stands rest on top.

Obviously, you need to get the distance from boundaries and toe-in decided first, best done on rugs or cardboard that you can slide easily.

 

[thewinelake.]

That seems logical, but am I alone in seeing a contradiction between mounting a speaker in such a way that it doesn't move, yet isolating it from the floor?

Something that does make sense is to firmly anchor a speaker to a massive and passive rigid stand and then isolate that combination from any other potentially acoustically active objects (eg a floor). That will make wobbles caused by driver movement much smaller and reduce excitation of the floor.

 

[davedotco]

Yes, you do need a rigid mounting. That makes the most difference, for the reasons andy states above.

With a suspended floor, you want to avoid exciting the resonant space underneath, if possible. At one time, putting regular screws into the floor and spiking a stand to that was a solution. If they are nice floor boards, I'd start with coins (10p size should be enough) with speck of blutack to hold them in place, letting gravity take over once the stands rest on top.

Obviously, you need to get the distance from boundaries and toe-in decided first, best done on rugs or cardboard that you can slide easily.

This is still the most effective way of using stand mounted speakers. The only occasion I would not bother is with 'super heavy' stands were it seems irrelevant.

As with all diy jobs, once you have done it a few times it becomes dead easy and the benefits are usually very worthwhile, particularly effective on a carpeted floor.

Place the speakers where you have decided they will go, place squares of gaffa tape where the spikes go into the carpet then replace the stands leaving neat spike holes. Use a hammer and some sort of spike (not a power drill if you are going through carpet) to make the guide holes then drive in 1 in (approx) cross headed woodscrews.

Leave them about 1/4 in proud and, if possible, level roughly, exact does not matter at thes point. Place the stand with the spikes in the cross of the screws, if they are not centred use the hammer to move the screws sideways a little. Level the stands and get them riged. Job done.

 

[nopiano]

Thanks for confirming I hadn't completely forgotten, Dave!

 

[nopiano]

double post. (Haven't had one for a while)!

 

[Gaz37]

I've recently replaced an old pair of lightweight Target stands with some chunky Atacamas that are about three times heavier.

Prior to this I was a bit of a sceptic regarding stands but the extra weight and associated stability of the Atacamas has made a massive difference.

Initially I was aware of improved clarity in mid and HF but thought that I has lost some depth of bass, however further listening has made me realise that I'm now hearing a more accurate reproduction of the music as some tracks/albums have improved bass and others appear less bassy. My initial disappointment came from Queen's Another One Bites The Dust where the bass line sounded more of a "duh" than a "bump", yet on Pink Floyd's When The Tigers Broke Free I hear more of a deep rumble than I ever had before.

This is using an old pair of B&W DM600 speakers.

 

[Gray]

I'm wondering about trying to build something like this:

I can see how neighbours could benefit from the decoupling, but personally that's the last thing I'd do.

 

[Al ears]

Yes, you do need a rigid mounting. That makes the most difference, for the reasons andy states above.

With a suspended floor, you want to avoid exciting the resonant space underneath, if possible. At one time, putting regular screws into the floor and spiking a stand to that was a solution. If they are nice floor boards, I'd start with coins (10p size should be enough) with speck of blutack to hold them in place, letting gravity take over once the stands rest on top.

Obviously, you need to get the distance from boundaries and toe-in decided first, best done on rugs or cardboard that you can slide easily.

Whilst your point has great value I would tend, in the case of suspended flooring to attempt to isolate speakers and rather than use spikes at all would sit them on blocks of some sort with Sorbothane half -balls or something of the like underneath and blu-tac holding speakers to blocks.

I have had great success with this in the past and currently when I had to move my current set-up to the upstairs bedroom.

Oh to be able to afford a pair of Townshend Seismic supports.

 

[davedotco]

Yes, you do need a rigid mounting. That makes the most difference, for the reasons andy states above.

With a suspended floor, you want to avoid exciting the resonant space underneath, if possible. At one time, putting regular screws into the floor and spiking a stand to that was a solution. If they are nice floor boards, I'd start with coins (10p size should be enough) with speck of blutack to hold them in place, letting gravity take over once the stands rest on top.

Obviously, you need to get the distance from boundaries and toe-in decided first, best done on rugs or cardboard that you can slide easily.

Whilst your point has great value I would tend, in the case of suspended flooring to attempt to isolate speakers and rather than use spikes at all would sit them on blocks of some sort with Sorbothane half -balls or something of the like underneath and blu-tac holding speakers to blocks.

I have had great success with this in the past and currently when I had to move my current set-up to the upstairs bedroom.

Oh to be able to afford a pair of Townshend Seismic supports.

Speaking very generally, my experiences are mostly to the contrary, mass loading (slabs) and decoupling tend to emphasise overhang and time smear in the bass. Spiking does the opposite, emphasising speed, precision and tightness.

That said, this is far from an exact science, I have heard multilayer spiked supports (Mana) and decoupling platforms (Townsend) both sound excellent in different situations despite the 'theories' on which they are built being at opposite ends of the spectrum.

Funny old game, hi-fi...!

 

[thewinelake.]

...I've already abandoned the idea ;-)

Might try a kind of blu-tac club sandwich instead.

Also came across these, which look interesting: https://www.kmraudio.com/isoacoustics-iso-l8r130-monitor-stands.php

For my next mad idea, build a pond in the room and put the speakers on loosely tethered rafts with magnetic force alignment....

 

[Al ears]

Yes, you do need a rigid mounting. That makes the most difference, for the reasons andy states above.

With a suspended floor, you want to avoid exciting the resonant space underneath, if possible. At one time, putting regular screws into the floor and spiking a stand to that was a solution. If they are nice floor boards, I'd start with coins (10p size should be enough) with speck of blutack to hold them in place, letting gravity take over once the stands rest on top.

Obviously, you need to get the distance from boundaries and toe-in decided first, best done on rugs or cardboard that you can slide easily.

Whilst your point has great value I would tend, in the case of suspended flooring to attempt to isolate speakers and rather than use spikes at all would sit them on blocks of some sort with Sorbothane half -balls or something of the like underneath and blu-tac holding speakers to blocks.

I have had great success with this in the past and currently when I had to move my current set-up to the upstairs bedroom.

Oh to be able to afford a pair of Townshend Seismic supports.

Speaking very generally, my experiences are mostly to the contrary, mass loading (slabs) and decoupling tend to emphasise overhang and time smear in the bass. Spiking does the opposite, emphasising speed, precision and tightness.

That said, this is far from an exact science, I have heard multilayer spiked supports (Mana) and decoupling platforms (Townsend) both sound excellent in different situations despite the 'theories' on which they are built being at opposite ends of the spectrum.

Funny old game, hi-fi...!

You said it. Spiking into a suspended floor just adds the possibility of transmitting nasties into the floor and brings into play, in my opinion, an possible unwanted effect. Decoupling does just the opposite and let's the speakers speak for themselves, so to speak. ;-)

Experimentation is the key.

 

[thewinelake.]

Would anyone here be able to identify these stands?

 

[Al ears]

Would anyone here be able to identify these stands?

I have seen similar designs but these were not identical to those in the photo. Are they homemade possibly as manufacturers stands normally have some identification marks on them somewhere.

 

[thewinelake.]

I've not actually looked closely for a manufacturers name! Doubt that they were home-made. But they are likely to be 10 years old or more.

just looking on the web I think they very closely resemble Target stands

 

[Al ears]

I've not actually looked closely for a manufacturers name! Doubt that they were home-made. But they are likely to be 10 years old or more.

just looking on the web I think they very closely resemble Target stands

Possibly. Are the uprights wood or metal?

 

[thewinelake.]

Very metal!