Speaker placement, acoustics and PMC Twenty5

[Entrigo]

So, I have a fairly challenging set up with regards to speakers/acoustics etc and looking to change things around - and upgrade speakers. I am a total noob with room acoustics so advice would be greatly appreciated.

• Space is a "double living room" - 7m x 3m;
• The hi-fi and sofa are in one half of the room, towards the front bay window.
• The speakers are on the long wall firing across the short axis.
• Speakers are either side of chimney breast and TV, normally 2.5m+ apart.
• Listening position is in the middle of a medium/large sofa against the wall - 2.2/2.5m from the speakers.
• On one speaker's side there's a bay window with shutters - about 1.5m away; on the other speaker's side, the rest of the room - side wall about 3.5 m away.
• So odd proportions and pretty asymmetrical space.

Amp is Rega Elex-R and speakers Focal Aria 906.

I am now thinking of moving the speakers to the end of the room, along the short axis and firing along the longer one, with me sitting in an armchair in the middle of the room - about 2/2.5m away from the speakers.

Usable space is 2.9 m across, wall to record storage cabinet/chimney breast. So if I place speakers 1.8m apart, tweeter to tweeter, they'd be around 40cm from the side walls.

I would place 50mm rockwool panels at first reflection point and a carpet on the hardwood floor.

So, first question is - Would this work?

And secondly - would a pair of PMC twenty5.22 speakers be a good fit for space and system - or would the Twenty5.21 be a better fit?
I am drawn to the 22's "bigger scale" but I am conscious the space is still not great/large.

Bear in mind I am not a bass-head and much prefer taut than deep bass, so the difference in bass response between the two wouldn't bother me - and either speaker would probably be better than the Focal in that respect, as they only go to 56hz.


Ah I'd be buying used, so the chances of a demo are next to zilch.

 

[skinnypuppy71]

....so are the speakers going to be just in front of a bay window?I
I used to have a pair of original pmc twenty 21 with Naim amplification.....they didn't really work in front of my window, they faired much better firing across the shorter side of the room (placed along the longer wall)....but I will stress every room is different and it's probably a case of trial and error, I also thought I'd have much preferred the extra low end from the 22's, but apparently the speed of the 21's was preferred by some people, horses for courses I suppose.

 

[Entrigo]

....so are the speakers going to be just in front of a bay window?

Ah no, on the other end. Against the back wall (and one occasionally in front of an open door if nobody is in the house or using the kitchen 🤣).

 

[skinnypuppy71]

Ah no, on the other end. Against the back wall (and one occasionally in front of an open door if nobody is in the house or using the kitchen 🤣).

I edited my post while you were replying I was believe, so check out the edit...thanks

 

[Entrigo]

I edited my post while you were replying I was believe, so check out the edit...thanks

Thanks for that. For what I read, the Twenty and Twenty5 are slightly different in voicing but not sure the placement preferences would.... Well in any case if they don't work along the short side, can always move them back.

As well as acoustics, I'd also really like the listening position not to be on the sofa but a dedicated chair - but if it's not to be, it's not to be.

Well, will try with the Focal first anyway just for fun and see.

 

[skinnypuppy71]

Hi again Entrigo...yeah try with the focals first before spending any money...but I'll say this, on looking at your system signature, if it was me, I think I'd be looking to take the amplification to the next level, not your speakers....just yet,
I'm pretty sure those focals will scale up a level...and that technics deck/At cartridge have more to give....I think a amplifier a class or two above the Elex r will unearth some hidden musicality that's currently not being utilised.....lots of folks downplay the difference a amplifier can make, but at the end of the day it's the absolute hub of a system that everything else in the system hangs on.....
if you look at my main system in my signature you'll notice my Amplifier is way more expensive than the rest of my components,....but I know I'm getting the absolute best I can from my sources fed to the amplifier and I'm in no doubt whatsoever that my Neats are under complete control from the Electrocompaniet Eci 6mkii...think about it.....

 

[Entrigo]

Hi again Entrigo...yeah try with the focals first before spending any money...but I'll say this, on looking at your system signature, if it was me, I think I'd be looking to take the amplification to the next level, not your speakers....just yet,
I'm pretty sure those focals will scale up a level...and that technics deck/At cartridge have more to give....I think a amplifier a class or two above the Elex r will unearth some hidden musicality that's currently not being utilised.....lots of folks downplay the difference a amplifier can make, but at the end of the day it's the absolute hub of a system that everything else in the system hangs on......

Ha! I have grappled long and hard about that same question. My first instinct was to move up amp-wise (Elicit MK5 or Naim Supernait 2) but on balance, more people seemed to think a speaker upgrade with the Elex-R would make a bigger difference than amp upgrade with the Focals, for the time being. Unless I win the lottery, having spent £3k+ on turntable and carts in the last few months, it'll be speakers now/this year and amp next year.

P.s. This goes back to the age old amp or speaker primacy. Having read far and wide, I have landed on the speakers being marginally more important once you have a good enough amp but obviously happy to hear views in favour of the opposite.

 

[skinnypuppy71]

Ha! I have grappled long and hard about that same question. My first instinct was to move up amp-wise (Elicit MK5 or Naim Supernait 2) but on balance, more people seemed to think a speaker upgrade with the Elex-R would make a bigger difference than amp upgrade with the Focals, for the time being. Unless I win the lottery, having spent £3k+ on turntable and carts in the last few months, it'll be speakers now/this year and amp next year.

P.s. This goes back to the age old amp or speaker primacy. Having read far and wide, I have landed on the speakers being marginally more important once you have a good enough amp but obviously happy to hear views in favour of the opposite.

Yeah..everyone has a opinion I suppose.....but that turntable /cartridge and phono stage setup are writing cheques the amp canny cash..lol.....in my honest opinion...Supernait 2 is where my cash would be going..if it's used kit your going for....very reliable and Naim gear holds it's value very well.

 

[Entrigo]

Yeah..everyone has a opinion I suppose.....but that turntable /cartridge and phono stage setup are writing cheques the amp canny cash..lol.....in my honest opinion...Supernait 2 is where my cash would be going..if it's used kit your going for....very reliable and Naim gear holds it's value very well.

Well. I have always wanted to try the Focals with the Naim to be honest. But then the speakers would be the bottleneck.. Sub £1k speakers with a £3k amp (new prices around the same time)?

For all I have read, the Elex is a more than competent amp that would be able to drive most £2k speakers reasonably well. Not as well as the Naim or Elicit and won't make them sing as much but I feel between the two options, the Elex-R is going to be the smaller bottleneck.

Also had the Focal for about 3/4 years now while the Elex-R only a year so... 😂

 

[abacus]

The speakers will always give you the biggest difference after the room they are in.
Anything mechanical at the source (Turntable etc) would be next, followed by the amplifier.
Digital source differences are small compared to mechanical differences.
Yes, your repositioning and adding diffusion panels etc. will be big improvement over what you have now, just follow the suggestions of the speaker manufacture and take time to find the best distance from walls etc. for the speakers.
Once you have done the above and you are getting the best from your system, then you can think about changing if something is not quite right.
Also consider adding a subwoofer or 2 to even out the bass in the room.
All the best in your endeavour.

Bill

 

[skinnypuppy71]

Well. I have always wanted to try the Focals with the Naim to be honest. But then the speakers would be the bottleneck.. Sub £1k speakers with a £3k amp (new prices around the same time)?

For all I have read, the Elex is a more than competent amp that would be able to drive most £2k speakers reasonably well. Not as well as the Naim or Elicit and won't make them sing as much but I feel between the two options, the Elex-R is going to be the smaller bottleneck.

Also had the Focal for about 3/4 years now while the Elex-R only a year so... 😂

OK fair enough....if the Rega is the more recent purchase that's understandable, it'd be great if we all had wads of cash and upgrade everything at the same time....lol...but alas it's not possible....we all have to endure the old bottle neck in the system at some point or another.
My main system is also a bit of a bottle neck, but I know I can go either way with source or speakers and get value from either option because I chose to make the amplifier the absolute best I could afford....although the affordable bit is debatable 🤣🤣🤣

 

[Entrigo]

Well. I have always wanted to try the Focals with the Naim to be honest. But then the speakers would be the bottleneck.. Sub £1k speakers with a £3k amp (new prices around the same time)?

For all I have read, the Elex is a more than competent amp that would be able to drive most £2k speakers reasonably well. Not as well as the Naim or Elicit and won't make them sing as much but I feel between the two options, the Elex-R is going to be the smaller bottleneck.

OK fair enough....if the Rega is the more recent purchase that's understandable, it'd be great if we all had wads of cash and upgrade everything at the same time....lol...but alas it's not possible....we all have to endure the old bottle neck in the system at some point or another.
My main system is also a bit of a bottle neck, but I know I can go either way with source or speakers and get value from either option because I chose to make the amplifier the absolute best I could afford....although the affordable bit is debatable 🤣🤣🤣

Haha if I had wads of cash I'd be changing my set up every few months just for the fun of it.

To be honest, the recency of the Rega is not much of an issue. Bought a Marantz PM7200 six months before the Rega and, although I really liked it, the itch to try something better was strong so out it went. And I changed 4/5 different phono stages last year before I settled on the Vertere. I have very itchy hands 😆

Thing is I actually really like the Rega voicing - hence I am thinking about the Elicit as upgrade. And the Focal I actually quite like. This is how they survived 4 years and several changes (they saw 3 amps, 3 turntables, 4/5 phono stages, 2 CD players, 2 streamers....) If I wanted to pick faults, aside from the desire to have more resolving speakers, they can be a touch bright at times (it might well be my reflective room though) and I wish they were a bit punchier in the bass.

In terms of resolving, better quality speakers, I'd actually love the ProAc Response D2, as from what I read, they are not too dissimilar in character. Issue is that the only used pair I saw in the colour I like are £2.5k. Too much possibly.

So enter the PMC, which seem like a good option, especially in terms of fun, engagement, rhythm etc - and as I listen mostly to rock, it's perfect for me. And who knows, in 2/3 years after I upgraded amp, I could still get a pair of ProAc 🤣

But hey, maybe moving speakers and listening spot will improve the Aria sufficiently to tame the upgrade beast 🤣

Well, your system seems pretty good - can't really see any weak link. Do you mean the Neat?

Anyway, how is the Electrocompaniet? I keep hearing great things about it.

 

[skinnypuppy71]

Haha if I had wads of cash I'd be changing my set up every few months just for the fun of it.

To be honest, the recency of the Rega is not much of an issue. Bought a Marantz PM7200 six months before the Rega and, although I really liked it, the itch to try something better was strong so out it went. And I changed 4/5 different phono stages last year before I settled on the Vertere. I have very itchy hands 😆

Thing is I actually really like the Rega voicing - hence I am thinking about the Elicit as upgrade. And the Focal I actually quite like. This is how they survived 4 years and several changes (they saw 3 amps, 3 turntables, 4/5 phono stages, 2 CD players, 2 streamers....) If I wanted to pick faults, aside from the desire to have more resolving speakers, they can be a touch bright at times (it might well be my reflective room though) and I wish they were a bit punchier in the bass.

In terms of resolving, better quality speakers, I'd actually love the ProAc Response D2, as from what I read, they are not too dissimilar in character. Issue is that the only used pair I saw in the colour I like are £2.5k. Too much possibly.

So enter the PMC, which seem like a good option, especially in terms of fun, engagement, rhythm etc - and as I listen mostly to rock, it's perfect for me. And who knows, in 2/3 years after I upgraded amp, I could still get a pair of ProAc 🤣

But hey, maybe moving speakers and listening spot will improve the Aria sufficiently to tame the upgrade beast 🤣

Well, your system seems pretty good - can't really see any weak link. Do you mean the Neat?

Anyway, how is the Electrocompaniet? I keep hearing great things about it.

Oh did I spell wrong..yes it's the Neat petite classic I use.....and the Electrocompaniet Eci 6mkii is just.....well you just forget it's there in musical terms and I don't think I can give it any better praise than that, it's bloody huge physically though.....but I reckon it is my endgame amplifier....my room is not large enough to accommodate or justify Electrocompaniet mono blocks or the humongous power amp.....this is now my Amplifier manufacturer of choice..I've had a few different amps through the years and I really like what they( Electrocompaniet) do....and I don't want a amp with dac, streaming smarts or phono stage as I believe stand alone units are always better in this regard....It's actually quite difficult to find a straight up integrated amplifier these days without all that extra stuff.
...oh and don't get too hung up on the pmc's.....brilliant speakers and I don't think I've came across a speaker with such openness and detail resolution than my 21's to this day.... but they do edge into the slightly leaner side of Neutral....absolutely brilliant with well recorded music, but can leave you underwhelmed with less than perfect recordings...that extra detail sacrificing a bit of warmth....but then again there's that bass from the transmission line....it's quite addictive...lol

 

[Entrigo]

Oh did I spell wrong..yes it's the Neat petite classic I use.....and the Electrocompaniet Eci 6mkii is just.....well you just forget it's there in musical terms and I don't think I can give it any better praise than that, it's bloody huge physically though.....but I reckon it is my endgame amplifier....my room is not large enough to accommodate or justify Electrocompaniet mono blocks or the humongous power amp.....this is now my Amplifier manufacturer of choice..I've had a few different amps through the years and I really like what they( Electrocompaniet) do....and I don't want a amp with dac, streaming smarts or phono stage as I believe stand alone units are always better in this regard....It's actually quite difficult to find a straight up integrated amplifier these days without all that extra stuff.
...oh and don't get too hung up on the pmc's.....brilliant speakers and I don't think I've came across a speaker with such openness and detail resolution than my 21's to this day.... but they do edge into the slightly leaner side of Neutral....absolutely brilliant with well recorded music, but can leave you underwhelmed with less than perfect recordings...that extra detail sacrificing a bit of warmth....but then again there's that bass from the transmission line....it's quite addictive...lol

Yeah had a look at it, it's really a thing of beauty. Something for the future possibly, after my next amp 😂.

Though it's too deep for my current shelves - like sadly many high end amps - so might need to find a solution.
And I agree on dedicated units. Eaay enough to add a little DAC /streamer etc if one wants.

As per PMC, which model did you listen to? I have read the old Twenty were quite lean but that the newer twenty5 should be a little fuller. Hmm. Well I will play around room placement this weekend first and see. Gotta move my record cabinet to the alcove at the end of the room so might try the Focal in the proposed position. And who knows? They might sound good enough to buy me some time to see if I can audition some speakers.

 

[skinnypuppy71]

Yeah had a look at it, it's really a thing of beauty. Something for the future possibly, after my next amp 😂.

Though it's too deep for my current shelves - like sadly many high end amps - so might need to find a solution.
And I agree on dedicated units. Eaay enough to add a little DAC /streamer etc if one wants.

As per PMC, which model did you listen to? I have read the old Twenty were quite lean but that the newer twenty5 should be a little fuller. Hmm. Well I will play around room placement this weekend first and see. Gotta move my record cabinet to the alcove at the end of the room so might try the Focal in the proposed position. And who knows? They might sound good enough to buy me some time to see if I can audition some speakers.

Yes...I did read the next gen of the Twenty series were not quite as lean sounding as the original that I had . never had a chance to listen to any of the next gen pmc's unfortunately....I remember I traded in my pmc's for my now Neat Petite classics, the shop I used weren't a pmc dealer ( the manager said they'd never heard them before).....a month or so later they were proud to announce( on thier website) that they were now a official dealer of Pmc....I never ever seen my pair on Ebay....that was the original plan for my traded in pair....lol.make of that what you will...but .good luck with the rearranging..lol

 

[Entrigo]

Yes...I did read the next gen of the Twenty series were not quite as lean sounding as the original that I had . never had a chance to listen to any of the next gen pmc's unfortunately....I remember I traded in my pmc's for my now Neat Petite classics, the shop I used weren't a pmc dealer ( the manager said they'd never heard them before).....a month or so later they were proud to announce( on thier website) that they were now a official dealer of Pmc....I never ever seen my pair on Ebay....that was the original plan for my traded in pair....lol.make of that what you will...but .good luck with the rearranging..lol

Haha they must have made an impression on the shop owner then! Neat also look like very nice speakers but I see what you meant about bottleneck - your amp could definitely take on more "high end" speakers. But that's the thing, price isn't everything and synergy trumps specs... Hence I secretly hope the new config will improve my Focal so I don't need to part with them 🤣 .

Thanks for the very interesting and informative chat!

 

[Entrigo]

The speakers will always give you the biggest difference after the room they are in.
Anything mechanical at the source (Turntable etc) would be next, followed by the amplifier.
Digital source differences are small compared to mechanical differences.
Yes, your repositioning and adding diffusion panels etc. will be big improvement over what you have now, just follow the suggestions of the speaker manufacture and take time to find the best distance from walls etc. for the speakers.
Once you have done the above and you are getting the best from your system, then you can think about changing if something is not quite right.
Also consider adding a subwoofer or 2 to even out the bass in the room.
All the best in your endeavour.

Bill

Thanks Bill, really appreciated the feedback.

I know amp vs speaker primacy is often a hot potato but I tend to see the latter as being key. After all, when I changed from a pair of Wharfedale Diamond 9.1 to my current Focal, with the same amp, the sound quality jumped tenfold. More than when I upgraded amp with the same speakers.

That is great to hear that the proposed positioning isn't crazy haha. But yes, good call to check manufacturer recommendations. I landed on the PMC also as I read user reviews saying they aren't too fussed about side walls, but it will make total sense to check with PMC about that. Hopefully I'll manage to speak to someone or at least find some specific info on their website!

As per subwoofer, I am always quite tentative. Someone a while ago suggested it is not about adding bass depth etc but to me it always screms "BASS HEAD - BOOMY BASS" 😆 - which I really don't like. For example, last year I went to demo a Rega P6 turntable - the shop didn't have the Focal 906 so they used a pair of 926 or 936 floostanders. It was seriously too much bass for me... Didn't enjoy it at all.

And if I choose to go with the PMC 22 in the end - more likely than the 21 in the new position, with slightly more space, they'd have already quite a well tuned and deep bass, according to pro and user reviews.