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igglebert:The endless quest continues! RS makes a good point though, pitch your sights higher in the quality stakes. Your comments, Matthew, always ring of someone that needs to spend more to be satisfied. Maybe you could try something like the PP has suggested, the MA GS or GR series. Maybe you could try some Rega RS1s.
Spot on. When I was box swapping budget gear I enjoyed all of it, but true satisfaction (at least for me) required moving up the ladder. MP should buy used gear, no doubt.
BUT, don't dispair, just a few more swaps and MP will have tried everything. He'll be forced to upgrade.
Spot on. When I was box swapping budget gear I enjoyed all of it, but true satisfaction (at least for me) required moving up the ladder. MP should buy used gear, no doubt.
BUT, don't dispair, just a few more swaps and MP will have tried everything. He'll be forced to upgrade.
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
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the record spot:
I had a look at what Retro Reproduction in Edinburgh have in their speaker stock currently for £200 or so: Alphason Artemis (£250), Celestion DL4 (£95), Cyrus CLS50 (£250), JBL Century 100s (£200), JM Lab Chorus (£225), Linn Kan & stands (£225), Musical Fidelity Reference 2 (£195), up a little we have the ProAc Tablette 2 (£295) and the ones I'd definitely be shortlisting, the Revolver R33 (£345).
The MF Reference 2's were £195 back in the 80's when I bought a pair!!
Matthew - the KEF's do work extremely well with Arcam, so I'm not surprised you've found them to your liking. The KEF's aren't speakers that try and produce as much bass as possible to sound immediately impressive like many do, and as a result tend to work well in smaller rooms and against walls. Also, I think there are a lot of people who don't give KEF speakers a long enough listen to appreciate their strong points, and tend to judge them too quickly and dismiss them. Good job you didn't listen to the Q100's!
I had a look at what Retro Reproduction in Edinburgh have in their speaker stock currently for £200 or so: Alphason Artemis (£250), Celestion DL4 (£95), Cyrus CLS50 (£250), JBL Century 100s (£200), JM Lab Chorus (£225), Linn Kan & stands (£225), Musical Fidelity Reference 2 (£195), up a little we have the ProAc Tablette 2 (£295) and the ones I'd definitely be shortlisting, the Revolver R33 (£345).
The MF Reference 2's were £195 back in the 80's when I bought a pair!!
Matthew - the KEF's do work extremely well with Arcam, so I'm not surprised you've found them to your liking. The KEF's aren't speakers that try and produce as much bass as possible to sound immediately impressive like many do, and as a result tend to work well in smaller rooms and against walls. Also, I think there are a lot of people who don't give KEF speakers a long enough listen to appreciate their strong points, and tend to judge them too quickly and dismiss them. Good job you didn't listen to the Q100's!
FrankHarveyHiFi:the record spot: I had a look at what Retro Reproduction in Edinburgh have in their speaker stock currently for £200 or so: Alphason Artemis (£250), Celestion DL4 (£95), Cyrus CLS50 (£250), JBL Century 100s (£200), JM Lab Chorus (£225), Linn Kan & stands (£225), Musical Fidelity Reference 2 (£195), up a little we have the ProAc Tablette 2 (£295) and the ones I'd definitely be shortlisting, the Revolver R33 (£345). The MF Reference 2's were £195 back in the 80's when I bought a pair!! Matthew - the KEF's do work extremely well with Arcam, so I'm not surprised you've found them to your liking. The KEF's aren't speakers that try and produce as much bass as possible to sound immediately impressive like many do, and as a result tend to work well in smaller rooms and against walls. Also, I think there are a lot of people who don't give KEF speakers a long enough listen to appreciate their strong points, and tend to judge them too quickly and dismiss them. Good job you didn't listen to the Q100's!
Hi David, would you say the new Q100s work equally well near a back wall as the iQ10s?
Hi David, would you say the new Q100s work equally well near a back wall as the iQ10s?
Frank Harvey
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- Jun 27, 2008
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I'd say in some extreme circumstances, the iQ10's would work better against a wall - the Q100's do have a better bass response so probably need a little more care, but being front ported they tend to be better than most.
The MF Ref 2's will be good against a wall too - cracking little speaker using 8" bass drivers - although £70-90 would be a more acceptable price. If anyone has a pair rewired internally with Audioquest Indigo speaker cable, they used to be mine!!
The MF Ref 2's will be good against a wall too - cracking little speaker using 8" bass drivers - although £70-90 would be a more acceptable price. If anyone has a pair rewired internally with Audioquest Indigo speaker cable, they used to be mine!!
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OK, some responses to the very hepful posts above.
None of those models at Retro really excites me RS, unfortunately. The R33s are listed at £499 in a 2004 review by Paul Messenger and, although he is very positive about them, he does suggest that they lack body with cellos and the like. The same appears to be an issue with the ProAc Tablettes. These speakers are not going to be able to reproduce piano accurately at all. Linn Kans are not the easiest load and I'd almost certainly have to buy a power amp sooner rather than later.
The Regas are good speakers but I'm not convinced they are worth the extra over the KEFs particularly as the last couple of times I heard them they lacked composure and sounded very aggressive (although much of this will be down to the Brio 3 amp).
I think I have to accept that at whatever price point I'm buying I am always going to be very fussy and like a very particular sound. The trouble is I can only identify it when I hear it. I honestly thought some of the expensive, highly praised stuff at the show on Sunday sounded truly awful. I wasn't at all impressed with the Dynaudio, ProAc, PMC, MA, or Naim speakers I heard there and preferred the Focals, Vienna Acoustics, Audiovectors, KEFs and Dalis by far, even though they were on the whole cheaper. To be honest I wasn't wholly taken with the Spendor A5s either and thought the Vienna Acoustics Mozart Grand and Beethoven Grand models outclassed them. The same applied to the electronics. The only ones that really stood out to me were the Arcam A38/CD37 pairing, the new Quad set-up, and the T+A streaming unit. I thought the Chord electronics were edgy, brash and lacking in depth and the Naim stuff just sounded clumsy and messy.
I am sure my amp can give even more than the KEFs will show but I also know that the pairing will be showing the KEFs at their very, very best whereas if I make a worthwhile enough upgrade (which to me would be something of the VA Haydn stature) I will then have to look at upgrading the amp again. I need a period of stability and feel that this set-up can give me that whilst I divert my attention to getting a turntable that I can really enjoy. On that note, the Systemdeks are VERY high on my list and any turntable purchase whether it is one of these, a Linn or a Thorens, will certainly be second hand.
None of those models at Retro really excites me RS, unfortunately. The R33s are listed at £499 in a 2004 review by Paul Messenger and, although he is very positive about them, he does suggest that they lack body with cellos and the like. The same appears to be an issue with the ProAc Tablettes. These speakers are not going to be able to reproduce piano accurately at all. Linn Kans are not the easiest load and I'd almost certainly have to buy a power amp sooner rather than later.
The Regas are good speakers but I'm not convinced they are worth the extra over the KEFs particularly as the last couple of times I heard them they lacked composure and sounded very aggressive (although much of this will be down to the Brio 3 amp).
I think I have to accept that at whatever price point I'm buying I am always going to be very fussy and like a very particular sound. The trouble is I can only identify it when I hear it. I honestly thought some of the expensive, highly praised stuff at the show on Sunday sounded truly awful. I wasn't at all impressed with the Dynaudio, ProAc, PMC, MA, or Naim speakers I heard there and preferred the Focals, Vienna Acoustics, Audiovectors, KEFs and Dalis by far, even though they were on the whole cheaper. To be honest I wasn't wholly taken with the Spendor A5s either and thought the Vienna Acoustics Mozart Grand and Beethoven Grand models outclassed them. The same applied to the electronics. The only ones that really stood out to me were the Arcam A38/CD37 pairing, the new Quad set-up, and the T+A streaming unit. I thought the Chord electronics were edgy, brash and lacking in depth and the Naim stuff just sounded clumsy and messy.
I am sure my amp can give even more than the KEFs will show but I also know that the pairing will be showing the KEFs at their very, very best whereas if I make a worthwhile enough upgrade (which to me would be something of the VA Haydn stature) I will then have to look at upgrading the amp again. I need a period of stability and feel that this set-up can give me that whilst I divert my attention to getting a turntable that I can really enjoy. On that note, the Systemdeks are VERY high on my list and any turntable purchase whether it is one of these, a Linn or a Thorens, will certainly be second hand.
FrankHarveyHiFi:
Matthew - the KEF's do work extremely well with Arcam, so I'm not surprised you've found them to your liking. The KEF's aren't speakers that try and produce as much bass as possible to sound immediately impressive like many do, and as a result tend to work well in smaller rooms and against walls. Also, I think there are a lot of people who don't give KEF speakers a long enough listen to appreciate their strong points, and tend to judge them too quickly and dismiss them. Good job you didn't listen to the Q100's!
Not at all - speaking as one who's just dismissed them David!
My point is merely thus: they will no doubt have their qualities, but not the qualities, I suspect on recent history's showing, that will suffice for MP's preferred long term tastes. They might be good speakers, but so too are the others and I rather suspect "good" won't quite cut the mustard long term.
We already know that he's gone back to the 751 (from a more than capable range and were themselves £300 in the early 90s) which is a fine partnership with the Arcam. Perhaps a recommendation one rung up the ladder might be in order for something MP might raise his game to as and when funds allow?
Matthew - the KEF's do work extremely well with Arcam, so I'm not surprised you've found them to your liking. The KEF's aren't speakers that try and produce as much bass as possible to sound immediately impressive like many do, and as a result tend to work well in smaller rooms and against walls. Also, I think there are a lot of people who don't give KEF speakers a long enough listen to appreciate their strong points, and tend to judge them too quickly and dismiss them. Good job you didn't listen to the Q100's!
Not at all - speaking as one who's just dismissed them David!
My point is merely thus: they will no doubt have their qualities, but not the qualities, I suspect on recent history's showing, that will suffice for MP's preferred long term tastes. They might be good speakers, but so too are the others and I rather suspect "good" won't quite cut the mustard long term.
We already know that he's gone back to the 751 (from a more than capable range and were themselves £300 in the early 90s) which is a fine partnership with the Arcam. Perhaps a recommendation one rung up the ladder might be in order for something MP might raise his game to as and when funds allow?
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FrankHarveyHiFi:the record spot:
I had a look at what Retro Reproduction in Edinburgh have in their speaker stock currently for £200 or so: Alphason Artemis (£250), Celestion DL4 (£95), Cyrus CLS50 (£250), JBL Century 100s (£200), JM Lab Chorus (£225), Linn Kan & stands (£225), Musical Fidelity Reference 2 (£195), up a little we have the ProAc Tablette 2 (£295) and the ones I'd definitely be shortlisting, the Revolver R33 (£345).
The MF Reference 2's were £195 back in the 80's when I bought a pair!!
Matthew - the KEF's do work extremely well with Arcam, so I'm not surprised you've found them to your liking. The KEF's aren't speakers that try and produce as much bass as possible to sound immediately impressive like many do, and as a result tend to work well in smaller rooms and against walls. Also, I think there are a lot of people who don't give KEF speakers a long enough listen to appreciate their strong points, and tend to judge them too quickly and dismiss them. Good job you didn't listen to the Q100's!
Thanks David. Nail on the head! I love the fact that the KEFs don't try and throw out excess bass to impress whilst still having enough weight to do a credible job with lower strings etc. The Arcam/KEF synergy does seem to work extremely well as you say and I think it is a good resting point from which I can enjoy the music for a while.
I had a look at what Retro Reproduction in Edinburgh have in their speaker stock currently for £200 or so: Alphason Artemis (£250), Celestion DL4 (£95), Cyrus CLS50 (£250), JBL Century 100s (£200), JM Lab Chorus (£225), Linn Kan & stands (£225), Musical Fidelity Reference 2 (£195), up a little we have the ProAc Tablette 2 (£295) and the ones I'd definitely be shortlisting, the Revolver R33 (£345).
The MF Reference 2's were £195 back in the 80's when I bought a pair!!
Matthew - the KEF's do work extremely well with Arcam, so I'm not surprised you've found them to your liking. The KEF's aren't speakers that try and produce as much bass as possible to sound immediately impressive like many do, and as a result tend to work well in smaller rooms and against walls. Also, I think there are a lot of people who don't give KEF speakers a long enough listen to appreciate their strong points, and tend to judge them too quickly and dismiss them. Good job you didn't listen to the Q100's!
Thanks David. Nail on the head! I love the fact that the KEFs don't try and throw out excess bass to impress whilst still having enough weight to do a credible job with lower strings etc. The Arcam/KEF synergy does seem to work extremely well as you say and I think it is a good resting point from which I can enjoy the music for a while.
Matthew, if they do the job for you, then I for one am delighted. I await next week on the forum with renewed interest...
FWIW, Hi Fi World have rated the IQ30 for some time now (as indeed they rated the 686 you have/had), so while I have my doubts long term about the IQ10 partnership here, if it works for now, then all is good. I do think part of it must be down - to some degree at least - with recordings too and the digital forum seems to bring this out more than vinyl did (or perhaps that's just my ever increasing hazy memory).
FWIW, Hi Fi World have rated the IQ30 for some time now (as indeed they rated the 686 you have/had), so while I have my doubts long term about the IQ10 partnership here, if it works for now, then all is good. I do think part of it must be down - to some degree at least - with recordings too and the digital forum seems to bring this out more than vinyl did (or perhaps that's just my ever increasing hazy memory).
Matthew, I do sympathize with you that you can't achieve the sound you are after.
Is it time to
[*]Concentrate on finding a system that excels at the one particular type of music that you love.?......and just does alright with the rest.
[*]Sell off as much of your old gear as possible and start saving for something currently out of reach?
[*]Maybe try a qaulity valve based sytem with some very sensitive speakers?
Anyway sorry for intruding on something which is none of my buisness.I personaly like a system that does well across lots of different styles of music. I personally think it is very hard to find kit that excells at everything.
I know an american chap who loves piano music and has a system based around valves and Fostex full range speakers like these.
http://www.tektondesign.com/loudspeaker.html
This system is only really used for piano related music.
He has another budget NAD system for all other styles.
Excentric/ expensive...........but it works for him.
D
Is it time to
[*]Concentrate on finding a system that excels at the one particular type of music that you love.?......and just does alright with the rest.
[*]Sell off as much of your old gear as possible and start saving for something currently out of reach?
[*]Maybe try a qaulity valve based sytem with some very sensitive speakers?
Anyway sorry for intruding on something which is none of my buisness.I personaly like a system that does well across lots of different styles of music. I personally think it is very hard to find kit that excells at everything.
I know an american chap who loves piano music and has a system based around valves and Fostex full range speakers like these.
http://www.tektondesign.com/loudspeaker.html
This system is only really used for piano related music.
He has another budget NAD system for all other styles.
Excentric/ expensive...........but it works for him.
D
brittondave:
Matthew, I do sympathize with you that you can't achieve the sound you are after.
Is it time to
[*]Concentrate on finding a system that excels at the one particular type of music that you love.?......and just does alright with the rest.
[*]Sell off as much of your old gear as possible and start saving for something currently out of reach?
[*]Maybe try a qaulity valve based sytem with some very sensitive speakers?
Anyway sorry for intruding on something which is none of my buisness.I personaly like a system that does well across lots of different styles of music. I personally think it is very hard to find kit that excells at everything.
I know an american chap who loves piano music and has a system based around valves and Fostex full range speakers like these.
http://www.tektondesign.com/loudspeaker.html
This system is only really used for piano related music.
He has another budget NAD system for all other styles.
Excentric/ expensive...........but it works for him.
D
That reminds me about some geezer that had his system(s) featured in a mag some years ago. His small lounge was full of speakers and hifi, all on cut-off squash balls with home made interconnects. Weird.
Sorry, I don't understand this 'you can't find a system you like'. I think some folks completely forget about the music and get totally hung up about the boxes.
Matthew, I do sympathize with you that you can't achieve the sound you are after.
Is it time to
[*]Concentrate on finding a system that excels at the one particular type of music that you love.?......and just does alright with the rest.
[*]Sell off as much of your old gear as possible and start saving for something currently out of reach?
[*]Maybe try a qaulity valve based sytem with some very sensitive speakers?
Anyway sorry for intruding on something which is none of my buisness.I personaly like a system that does well across lots of different styles of music. I personally think it is very hard to find kit that excells at everything.
I know an american chap who loves piano music and has a system based around valves and Fostex full range speakers like these.
http://www.tektondesign.com/loudspeaker.html
This system is only really used for piano related music.
He has another budget NAD system for all other styles.
Excentric/ expensive...........but it works for him.
D
That reminds me about some geezer that had his system(s) featured in a mag some years ago. His small lounge was full of speakers and hifi, all on cut-off squash balls with home made interconnects. Weird.
Sorry, I don't understand this 'you can't find a system you like'. I think some folks completely forget about the music and get totally hung up about the boxes.
drummerman:brittondave:
Matthew, I do sympathize with you that you can't achieve the sound you are after.
Is it time to
[*]Concentrate on finding a system that excels at the one particular type of music that you love.?......and just does alright with the rest.
[*]Sell off as much of your old gear as possible and start saving for something currently out of reach?
[*]Maybe try a qaulity valve based sytem with some very sensitive speakers?
Anyway sorry for intruding on something which is none of my buisness.I personaly like a system that does well across lots of different styles of music. I personally think it is very hard to find kit that excells at everything.
I know an american chap who loves piano music and has a system based around valves and Fostex full range speakers like these.
http://www.tektondesign.com/loudspeaker.html
This system is only really used for piano related music.
He has another budget NAD system for all other styles.
Excentric/ expensive...........but it works for him.
D
That reminds me about some geezer that had his system(s) featured in a mag some years ago. His small lounge was full of speakers and hifi, all on cut-off squash balls with home made interconnects. Weird.
Sorry, I don't understand this 'you can't find a system you like'. I think some folks completely forget about the music and get totally hung up about the boxes.
That is weird and yes you are right of course it's all about the tunes. This guy loves music too, it's just that his full range fostex speakers make the piano sound very realistic. He doesn't find it chore to select which player it goes in. yes it's excentric! but it works for him and I don't think he's hung up on the boxes. .
I just hope Matthew finds a system that suits him and lets just enjoy the music...
cheers dude
Matthew, I do sympathize with you that you can't achieve the sound you are after.
Is it time to
[*]Concentrate on finding a system that excels at the one particular type of music that you love.?......and just does alright with the rest.
[*]Sell off as much of your old gear as possible and start saving for something currently out of reach?
[*]Maybe try a qaulity valve based sytem with some very sensitive speakers?
Anyway sorry for intruding on something which is none of my buisness.I personaly like a system that does well across lots of different styles of music. I personally think it is very hard to find kit that excells at everything.
I know an american chap who loves piano music and has a system based around valves and Fostex full range speakers like these.
http://www.tektondesign.com/loudspeaker.html
This system is only really used for piano related music.
He has another budget NAD system for all other styles.
Excentric/ expensive...........but it works for him.
D
That reminds me about some geezer that had his system(s) featured in a mag some years ago. His small lounge was full of speakers and hifi, all on cut-off squash balls with home made interconnects. Weird.
Sorry, I don't understand this 'you can't find a system you like'. I think some folks completely forget about the music and get totally hung up about the boxes.
That is weird and yes you are right of course it's all about the tunes. This guy loves music too, it's just that his full range fostex speakers make the piano sound very realistic. He doesn't find it chore to select which player it goes in. yes it's excentric! but it works for him and I don't think he's hung up on the boxes. .
I just hope Matthew finds a system that suits him and lets just enjoy the music...
cheers dude
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Thanks BrittonDave. I know I have found the right amp and I feel that I've found the right speakers now as well. The CD player isn't even in question - I reckon I would have to spend a lot to make a decent improvement on the Rotel and am actually considering looking out for another mint one as a spare.
MP, what do you feel the differences are between the 751 and the current KEF speaker? Accepting you've not had as much time to get used to the sound of the newer speakers enough, perhaps, to fully appreciate all of the differences?
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RS - It is, as you say, early days yet but I feel that the KEFs have a coherence, both tonally across the frequency range and in terms of soundstage, that the 751s don't quite achieve. I've never heard a small pair of speakers reproduce a piano so that it sounds like all the notes belong to the same instrument as convincingly as the KEFs appear to do, and yet there is ample seperation with thicker orchestral textures and bigger rock/folk tracks. I'll leave the comparison there for now, until I've got a few more hours under my belt, but overall I would say they are on a par, with the KEFs real talents perhaps suiting my needs more. I won't be selling the 751s as I like them very much and intend to use them in a 2nd system in the other room. The B&Ws, on the other hand, will be going. Great speakers in so many ways but not right for me.
Blackdawn - The new Ikon Mk2 range looks great and, on the basis of the Ikon 6 Mk2 I heard at the show, I reckon all the models should sound pretty special too. I've certainly got them on the list for a later upgrade. I would also consider the EB2s as I think they may well suit my tastes quite well. Its going to be some time though as I'm very pleased with the KEFs so far and would really like to spend some time enjoying the music.
Blackdawn - The new Ikon Mk2 range looks great and, on the basis of the Ikon 6 Mk2 I heard at the show, I reckon all the models should sound pretty special too. I've certainly got them on the list for a later upgrade. I would also consider the EB2s as I think they may well suit my tastes quite well. Its going to be some time though as I'm very pleased with the KEFs so far and would really like to spend some time enjoying the music.
Cheers Matthew - I wonder if the (possibly) slightly warmer sound of the KEF has a less forensic presentation of the music than the 751? I found the latter incredibly musical and with a huge soundstage I have to say, but I know others find that precision can be detrimental to their appreciation. I'm assuming that's what you might be getting at by "coherence"?
MAtthew, Have you still got your Quad 11Ls? They might go well with the arcam, particularly for classical and jazz, although I think the Quads often need quite a bit of grunt to get the best out of them. I only really started to get the best out of mine (22L2s) when I added a P35 to my A32.
Cheers & good luck with the speaker hunt,
Julienne
Cheers & good luck with the speaker hunt,
Julienne
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My hunt is over. The KEFs are superb with the Arcam and Rotel. I've struggled to switch my music off the last couple of nights and felt really involved with all sorts of music right across the spectrum of my tastes (and right across the recording quality spectrum too!).
I've made a decision that this is it for the amp and speakers and also, as long as it works, the CD player.
On to the search for a great turntable and a good tuner (FM and DAB) now!
I've made a decision that this is it for the amp and speakers and also, as long as it works, the CD player.
On to the search for a great turntable and a good tuner (FM and DAB) now!
Hi Mr P, and glad you seem happy at last (well, at least for a while! lol). Have you any experience of the IQ30's at all? There seem to be some decent ex-display deals available on these and I'm thinking of putting them on an upgrade shortlist, although I'm not too convinced they would gel with either of my amps.
Finally.
Of course a great turntable will, in turn, show up any shortcomings in your amplifier and speakers ...
Of course a great turntable will, in turn, show up any shortcomings in your amplifier and speakers ...
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Sizzers:Hi Mr P, and glad you seem happy at last (well, at least for a while! lol). Have you any experience of the IQ30's at all? There seem to be some decent ex-display deals available on these and I'm thinking of putting them on an upgrade shortlist, although I'm not too convinced they would gel with either of my amps.
I've not heard the iQ30 but I would imagine they are quite similar in overall sonic signature to the iQ10s. If so I don't think they'd gel with the Pioneer. They could make a decent match with the Marantz though. Would be worth an audition.
I've not heard the iQ30 but I would imagine they are quite similar in overall sonic signature to the iQ10s. If so I don't think they'd gel with the Pioneer. They could make a decent match with the Marantz though. Would be worth an audition.
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drummerman:
Finally.
Of course a great turntable will, in turn, show up any shortcomings in your amplifier and speakers ...
Nah, it will just get the best out of them. 🙂
Finally.
Of course a great turntable will, in turn, show up any shortcomings in your amplifier and speakers ...
Nah, it will just get the best out of them. 🙂
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Sizzers I'm only really guessing so I'd advise an audition if you do consider that route. With your two amps I'd definitely be auditioning the Usher S520s as well.
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