Speaker Connundrum

[matthewpiano]

One of the things that stood out for me at the Manchester show was how good my Arcam A18 is as an amplifier. I heard very little else amplifier-wise that I would rather have other than the A38 or the new Quad stuff. Hearing the A38 paired with the Focal 806v, which are more open and natural sounding than my B&Ws, suggested to me that my choice of speakers isn't getting the best out of the amp. Consequently I came home last night and tried my old Mission 751s in place of the B&Ws and everything opened up right across the frequency range with more space and more atmosphere and much tighter control of everything. Front-to-back imaging was better, the character of instruments at the bass end was much clearer and there was just the right amount of shimmer from cymbals and the like at the top end. The mid-band was noticeably superior with vocals living and breathing as I'd expect. This afternoon I was thoroughly enjoying listening with the 751s but then felt that I must be wrong so I put the B&Ws back on. I was starting to persuade myself that the B&Ws were better but then I tried the 751s again and they had the same effect as last night. I'm playing 'Studio 150' by Paul Weller right now and the Rotel/Arcam/Mission combination sounds terrific. I know only I can decide between the two (and either will likely be replaced sometime next year by some Focals) but I kind of feel like the 751s shouldn't be better than the 686s. After all the 686s are not much less in price now than the 751s were when they were new. I know the Missions are more sensitive (the B&Ws are only 84dB which is VERY low) but I kind of feel like I need to understand WHY they sound better than the 686s. Any thoughts?

 

[Anonymous]

Sounds like the B&Ws need more grunt to hear them at their best. Small, insensitive speakers seem to benefit from a lof of power.

 

[matthewpiano]

Igg, would it be true to say that speakers of low sensitivity like the 686 are unlikely to perform well at low volumes? Do you think there is a direct correlation? I thought the only effect of the low sensitivity would be that the speakers needed more amplifier power to produce the same volume level.

 

[the record spot]

Not surprised here Matthew; my views on Mission's 75 range were forged with a pair of 751s in 1993 and won't be changed by much now. Better speakers than the B&Ws by a stretch too I'd say and given that they'd probably clock in nearer the £500 mark now, I'm not surprised you find them a better pairing with the Arcam.

Incidentally, at the time, I used the 751s with a Marantz CD52 Mk2 and an Arcam Alpha 5. Superb combination. People call the Alpha 5 woolly - load of old tosh. One of the fastest combos I've heard. The Arcam / Mission pairing should pay off with interest.

 

[Anonymous]

I can certainly believe that the Missions might be better speakers than the 686s.

I'm not convinced that low sensitivity results in poor low volume performance. My experiences don't support that but then I haven't had enough speakers to make a fair judgement. My older MA Silver 4i were a lot more sensitive than my Spendors (

My only fear of low sensitivity is the need for so many more volts. Couple that with a difficult load and things get scary. The Spens are an easy load. What are the 686s meant to be like? Have you got an impedance curve? One page I've found says that they dip to 3.7 Ohms. That's low and nasty and can't be good coupled with low sensitivity.

Sounds like you need more Watts. It would be an interesting test. Still, you could sell both and buy some Castle Knight 1 or 2

 

[the record spot]

I don't think he needs any encouragement to buy more speakers! Stick with what's there, but the amp should be fine for now, in time upgrade to a better one, both speakers will cope. The 686s will need more power (think 85w and above) to get the best out of them. And scour the likes of Gumtree or the better independent dealers with good quality used stock. That's the places to look to get more for the money in the end.

 

[the_dude2]

the record spot:I don't think he needs any encouragement to buy more speakers! Stick with what's there, but the amp should be fine for now, in time upgrade to a better one, both speakers will cope. The 686s will need more power (think 85w and above) to get the best out of them. And scour the likes of Gumtree or the better independent dealers with good quality used stock. That's the places to look to get more for the money in the end.

Isnt the A38 rated at 100w though? I know there can be good and bad watts, but the Arcam isnt that far off from 100w if at all is it? Do you think its more down to not supplying enough current to the B&W's?

 

[Anonymous]

It's the A18, 50W. Not a bad power rating really. More experimentation needed by Matthew. Come on, he lives to box swap.

 

[Blackdawn]

I don't think the amp lacks power especially at the low volumes we are talking about. It's more to do with the character of the speakers and amp combo. Apart from the Missions have you tried any faster/more detailed speakers with the Arcam?

 

[Blackdawn]

If you like the Missions at the moment I wouldn't change anything for at least a week and see what you think then!

 

[matthewpiano]

My amp is an A18 and 50wpc.

I really don't think the amp needs replacing. Maybe adding a power amp (P38) would be a good move eventually but I think the fault lies with the B&Ws rather than the Arcam. If I turn the volume well up the 686s sound excellent (though still not as goodas the Missions). It is at more domestically acceptable volumes where they just don't deliver.

I have to admit I spent a lot of time choosing the amplifier but paid less attention to the speakers. What I should have done is buy one thing at a time. Buying just the amp first and using it with existing speakers for a while would have been a good idea. I am extremely pleased with the Arcam and pairing it with the 751s really shows its qualities much more clearly.

The way I see this going is:

My existing Arcam A18 (potentially + a P38 power amp but I would have to be very convinced that it made a big enough difference), keeping the Rotel RCD965BX until I can find a real step up like a Unison Research Unico or, at the very least an Arcam CD17 or a good 2nd hand Arcam CD192.

My 751s are scruffy so I'll need to do something with the speakers at some point whether that means looking out for a really mint pair of 751s or investigating the Focal or other routes further. It may even be that if I bi-amp the B&Ws with a P38 they will open up, but I do wonder a little whether the B&W sound is a little falsely enlarged at the bass end for my tastes and I still don't think they are going to get the best out of either the A18 on its own, or with a P38.

 

[the_dude2]

igglebert:It's the A18, 50W. Not a bad power rating really. More experimentation needed by Matthew. Come on, he lives to box swap.

yes you're right, my bad, i get confused easily

 

[plastic penguin]

I had to come out forum retirement. Matthew, your A18 needs better speakers than the ones you have - you're really not justifying spending the extra on a good amp by scrimping and scraping on speakers. Yes, the Focals are fabulous speakers (heard the 714V with my old A65+), but MAs, especially the older RS models are the perfect match. For the price of the 806Vs you could have a pair of these.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MONITOR-AUDIO-GOLD-GS10-SPEAKERS-EX-DISPLAY-WERE-899-/110592096437?pt=UK_AudioVideoElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_HiFiSpeakers&hash=item19bfcd78b5

I'm sure you understand why I loved my Arcams and there's very little below the grand mark beats the combo synergy-wise. The GR10s will blow the Focals out of the water. Arcam and MA aren't the trendiest combo on this forum (with some justification), put together it's a marriage made in heaven.

 

[matthewpiano]

Thanks PP, appreciate the advice. I suspect you are absolutely right. I can't afford to jump into anything yet so will be using the Mission 751s for a while, but I will keep my eyes open for used MA RS and GS range models.

 

[matthewpiano]

I've had a chat with my dealer today and I've got a pair of the outgoing KEF iQ10s on home demo. I'll update on how I get on with them later but it will work out a very good deal if they prove to give me what I am looking for.

 

[the record spot]

matthewpiano:I've had a chat with my dealer today and I've got a pair of the outgoing KEF iQ10s on home demo. I'll update on how I get on with them later but it will work out a very good deal if they prove to give me what I am looking for.

AAAAARGH!!!

I'll give you a pound to a penny they're going to be good for some stuff, but lacking in others, not what you're after, very good speakers, but ultimately don't cut it. Are you going to the same dealer? If so, they're advising you badly. A whole series of sideways moves ultimately means not moving forward. The only thing that's going up is their profit.

You got a taste of the possibilities of moving up a step with the A18, but rather than stick with speakers like the current IQ10, why not find out what the dealers in your area or even a little further afield have in the used/ex-dem line. You'll get a speaker that pitches at a higher level than the new ones you're buying.

It's precisely the same logic you employed spending £100 for the 751s that sees them wipe the floor with some of the B&W boxes of the present day, spending £300 (the cost of the KEFs in other words) will net you something good from further up the ladder. Guaranteed, but they're not the boxes your dealer's pitching at you and they're not typically going to be less than £500.

 

[Anonymous]

The endless quest continues!

RS makes a good point though, pitch your sights higher in the quality stakes. Your comments, Matthew, always ring of someone that needs to spend more to be satisfied. Maybe you could try something like the PP has suggested, the MA GS or GR series. Maybe you could try some Rega RS1s.

 

[manicm]

matthewpiano:One of the things that stood out for me at the Manchester show was how good my Arcam A18 is as an amplifier. I heard very little else amplifier-wise that I would rather have other than the A38 or the new Quad stuff. Hearing the A38 paired with the Focal 806v, which are more open and natural sounding than my B&Ws, suggested to me that my choice of speakers isn't getting the best out of the amp. Consequently I came home last night and tried my old Mission 751s in place of the B&Ws and everything opened up right across the frequency range with more space and more atmosphere and much tighter control of everything. Front-to-back imaging was better, the character of instruments at the bass end was much clearer and there was just the right amount of shimmer from cymbals and the like at the top end. The mid-band was noticeably superior with vocals living and breathing as I'd expect. This afternoon I was thoroughly enjoying listening with the 751s but then felt that I must be wrong so I put the B&Ws back on. I was starting to persuade myself that the B&Ws were better but then I tried the 751s again and they had the same effect as last night. I'm playing 'Studio 150' by Paul Weller right now and the Rotel/Arcam/Mission combination sounds terrific. I know only I can decide between the two (and either will likely be replaced sometime next year by some Focals) but I kind of feel like the 751s shouldn't be better than the 686s. After all the 686s are not much less in price now than the 751s were when they were new. I know the Missions are more sensitive (the B&Ws are only 84dB which is VERY low) but I kind of feel like I need to understand WHY they sound better than the 686s. Any thoughts?

Told ya to try the 685s instead

But I'm glad you've found a cracking amp. I can hear the possibilities of my Solo Mini as well. I also don't think the 685s major on imaging, which I think was B&W's reactionary response to their previous 6-series which probably had the best imaging in it's class, but I think some found it too bright - and they benefitted enormously from correct positioning.

 

[matthewpiano]

Actually they're brilliant and at only £199 ex-dem, cost neutral by the time I've sold the B&Ws. In the longer-term future I may well look at something even better (probably Vienna Acoustics Haydns), but I can't afford to do that at present and I don't want to keep messing around. The B&Ws are excellent speakers in many ways but not right for me, my room, or my amplifier and after several hours of listening to a wide variety of material this evening, the KEFs have completely won me over. It makes complete sense to make a cost-neutral move now and then enjoy what is a lovely, natural, lucid and engaging sound for a while before I make any more changes to the CD replay chain. This will also give me time to pay some attention to a better turntable.

 

[manicm]

matthewpiano:I've had a chat with my dealer today and I've got a pair of the outgoing KEF iQ10s on home demo. I'll update on how I get on with them later but it will work out a very good deal if they prove to give me what I am looking for.

Matthew, do circumstances dictate you get such small speakers? My cousin uses the iQ10s with his old Technics amp and they do sound good. But I would bet top shilling the iQ30s will be even better.

 

[matthewpiano]

manicm:
matthewpiano:I've had a chat with my dealer today and I've got a pair of the outgoing KEF iQ10s on home demo. I'll update on how I get on with them later but it will work out a very good deal if they prove to give me what I am looking for.

Matthew, do circumstances dictate you get such small speakers? My cousin uses the iQ10s with his old Technics amp and they do sound good. But I would bet top shilling the iQ30s will be even better.

I find bigger speakers tend not to work in my room. For some reason the imaging tends to get difficult with bigger drive units and the sound feels more like it is coming from the speaker boxes than around them. That is why, even when I eventually can buy some really expensive speakers, I will be looking at things like the Vienna Acoustics Haydn or the smaller Dalis (Mentor?).

 

[grdunn123]

matthewpiano:One of the things that stood out for me at the Manchester show was how good my Arcam A18 is as an amplifier. I heard very little else amplifier-wise that I would rather have other than the A38 or the new Quad stuff. Hearing the A38 paired with the Focal 806v, which are more open and natural sounding than my B&Ws, suggested to me that my choice of speakers isn't getting the best out of the amp. Consequently I came home last night and tried my old Mission 751s in place of the B&Ws and everything opened up right across the frequency range with more space and more atmosphere and much tighter control of everything. Front-to-back imaging was better, the character of instruments at the bass end was much clearer and there was just the right amount of shimmer from cymbals and the like at the top end. The mid-band was noticeably superior with vocals living and breathing as I'd expect.

This afternoon I was thoroughly enjoying listening with the 751s but then felt that I must be wrong so I put the B&Ws back on. I was starting to persuade myself that the B&Ws were better but then I tried the 751s again and they had the same effect as last night. I'm playing 'Studio 150' by Paul Weller right now and the Rotel/Arcam/Mission combination sounds terrific.

I know only I can decide between the two (and either will likely be replaced sometime next year by some Focals) but I kind of feel like the 751s shouldn't be better than the 686s. After all the 686s are not much less in price now than the 751s were when they were new. I know the Missions are more sensitive (the B&Ws are only 84dB which is VERY low) but I kind of feel like I need to understand WHY they sound better than the 686s.

Any thoughts?

I owned a pair of Mission 751's about 14 years ago and used them with Pioneer's Precision amp and cd player combo and they were superb! I then 'upgraded' to Castle Harlech speakers and spent ages trying to get them burned in and set up correctly.....after 6 months I went back to the Missions and it was an instant realisation that they were so much better.

 

[the record spot]

Matt, with the amount of stuff kicking round your bedroom and attic, you could flog half of it off and buy some quality speakers with the proceeds. The "cost neutral" comment is neither here nor there. A sideways move is a sideways move and the best speakers in your current collection are numbered 751!

I had a look at what Retro Reproduction in Edinburgh have in their speaker stock currently for £200 or so: Alphason Artemis (£250), Celestion DL4 (£95), Cyrus CLS50 (£250), JBL Century 100s (£200), JM Lab Chorus (£225), Linn Kan & stands (£225), Musical Fidelity Reference 2 (£195), up a little we have the ProAc Tablette 2 (£295) and the ones I'd definitely be shortlisting, the Revolver R33 (£345).

I think many of those represent a step up from where you're looking at right now, perhaps not the DL4s and others are an unknown quantity to some extent (Alphason Artemis???), but others like the ProAc, the Musical Fidelitys and the aforesaid Revolvers would be on anyone's radar I think (89db, originally £600 and a cracking pedigree to boot).

 

[Anonymous]

Proac Tablettes, now you're talking.

 

[the record spot]

Exactly; fine speakers!

Never mind upgrading the sodding Genie, I'd be giving the damn thing a good rub to see if our Matthew can get three wishes out of it! Flog the 686s for what, £150? The 751s might get £50 in their condition, that leaves rooting around for another £100 and job done. Well, nearly...