I have a DM37 micro hi-fi unit, it was supplied with an ordinary sized copper bell wire cable, if I get a proper cable like the QED anniversary xt would you notice a significant improvement or not?
Significant improvement using proper speaker cable true/false?
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Some do while others don't. I have personally found the merits of mains cables and conditioners, especially on my home cinema system, but not quite as much on my hi-fi.
I think the higher you go up the hifi chain the more a decent speaker can make. But of course this is down to the listener and what you are looking for, small nuances, a tad more bass, perhaps more relevant for someone who has spent a grand or more...
I've just spent the best part of £400 on new mains leads that are too upscale for what I have now, and whilst I've been pleased with the changes, very pleased in fact, I bought them to last me through an upgrade or two, which will be for very expensive kit if and when I can afford it. 'er indoors doesn't know about the cables.
But in answer to your question, yes, but on a £300 system it may be overkill to spend more than £2 per metre for some copper cable.
ÿ
I've just spent the best part of £400 on new mains leads that are too upscale for what I have now, and whilst I've been pleased with the changes, very pleased in fact, I bought them to last me through an upgrade or two, which will be for very expensive kit if and when I can afford it. 'er indoors doesn't know about the cables.
But in answer to your question, yes, but on a £300 system it may be overkill to spend more than £2 per metre for some copper cable.
ÿ
You really need try it for yourself.Personally I say yes but there are many threads debating the issue.
8009514
Well-known member
JoelSim:
But in answer to your question, yes, but on a £300 system it may be overkill to spend more than £2 per metre for some copper cable.
Have to agree with JoelSim on this statement. Having already considered this same question for my DM37 set up it made me flinch quite a bit at the thought of forking out £60 or more (I need 10 metres) on Chord Carnival or something similar. I couldn't honestly justify that kind of expense on a system that only cost me just over £320 in the first place.
However, not sure I would be happy with the bell wire that comes with many speakers. There is some good copper speaker cable available, Maplins have some at £1.99 a metre and some heavier duty stuff at £2.99 per metre. I would also think that some decent mains cable would be preferable to 'bell wire'.
But in answer to your question, yes, but on a £300 system it may be overkill to spend more than £2 per metre for some copper cable.
Have to agree with JoelSim on this statement. Having already considered this same question for my DM37 set up it made me flinch quite a bit at the thought of forking out £60 or more (I need 10 metres) on Chord Carnival or something similar. I couldn't honestly justify that kind of expense on a system that only cost me just over £320 in the first place.
However, not sure I would be happy with the bell wire that comes with many speakers. There is some good copper speaker cable available, Maplins have some at £1.99 a metre and some heavier duty stuff at £2.99 per metre. I would also think that some decent mains cable would be preferable to 'bell wire'.
idc
Well-known member
garyjos:...... would you notice a significant improvement or not?
I think that you would get an improvement, but it would not be significant. Joel's post sums it up very well.
I think that you would get an improvement, but it would not be significant. Joel's post sums it up very well.
I did a little test on my friend's DM37, swapping his supplied bell wire with my Chord and yes, there was a difference. I personally could find more detail and less muddled bass, although to be honest he couldn't. In saying that, though, he doesn't really settle down to get in to and actually listen to his music that often. I only needed 3m of cable so I had no qualms about spending the £18 on it, although I may well have obtained the same results spending 3 times less!
Harbeth Audio make high quality and expensive speakers. Their user guides still says on the subject of speaker cables that "Convetional 79- strand cable (or smiliar) will make a good initial starting point".
It would be interesting to repeat Sizzer's test using a more economical 79 strand cable. Better than bell wire I suspsect, and for only a round £1/m And if you cannot hear the differnce, you've not lost much.
It would be interesting to repeat Sizzer's test using a more economical 79 strand cable. Better than bell wire I suspsect, and for only a round £1/m And if you cannot hear the differnce, you've not lost much.
matthewpiano
Well-known member
I upgraded from a basic QED copper cable to Chord Rumour 2 and the difference was huge. I did direct A/B comparisons, swapping between the two several times, and the Chord gets so much more out of the music.
jaxwired
Well-known member
I'm positive that better cable (speaker and interconnects) makes a difference in sound quality. However, while many here, including me, would call the difference significant, most non hi fi nuts would call it subtle. Even worse, it takes a critical ear and a careful listener to hear the difference. When I switched to the chord chameleon plus interconnect I was so blown away by the improvement that I did an A/B comparison for my wife so she could see for herself how I hadn't been duped. Guess what, she couldn't hear it.
Then there's the system quality factor. The better the system's fidelity, the more you can hear the difference. I can hear a pin drop when I'm alone in my house, but when my two toddlers are home, a small explosion would go unnoticed.
-Jax
Then there's the system quality factor. The better the system's fidelity, the more you can hear the difference. I can hear a pin drop when I'm alone in my house, but when my two toddlers are home, a small explosion would go unnoticed.
-Jax
I would say that there is a clear difference in sound quality between cables, however often the difference is in musical interpretation.
The quality might not be in monetary/sound clarity values but in how the music is put forward. The same applies to all our kit, at what ever level. I have 3 amps on the go, all of the same age and price £200ish mid 90's... The Technics sounds almost valve like [ I never expected that... ] the Denon is obviously an honest amp that doesn't blow you away but gets on with the business of sounding real..and the Rotel is up front and expressive... I know from experience that the wire is the same,, more bassy.. better mid... expansive.. whatever. It is a matter of experimentation [ expensive sometimes ] and beware of the emporors new clothes.
The step up from bell wire will be the same as stepping up from an Amstrad [ sorry sir Alan ] thing to a Rega 2 deck. However don't expect anyone who is not in the hifi loop [ spouses etc ] to really be bothered or even want to get involved. You know that it sounds better
...
If you like experimenting and can really afford it feel free to play. To hear the differences in kit often involves small steps at a time. Real improvements are obvious when you hear it though..........
The quality might not be in monetary/sound clarity values but in how the music is put forward. The same applies to all our kit, at what ever level. I have 3 amps on the go, all of the same age and price £200ish mid 90's... The Technics sounds almost valve like [ I never expected that... ] the Denon is obviously an honest amp that doesn't blow you away but gets on with the business of sounding real..and the Rotel is up front and expressive... I know from experience that the wire is the same,, more bassy.. better mid... expansive.. whatever. It is a matter of experimentation [ expensive sometimes ] and beware of the emporors new clothes.
The step up from bell wire will be the same as stepping up from an Amstrad [ sorry sir Alan ] thing to a Rega 2 deck. However don't expect anyone who is not in the hifi loop [ spouses etc ] to really be bothered or even want to get involved. You know that it sounds better
If you like experimenting and can really afford it feel free to play. To hear the differences in kit often involves small steps at a time. Real improvements are obvious when you hear it though..........
idc
Well-known member
jaxwired:
........ However, while many here, including me, would call the difference significant, most non hi fi nuts would call it subtle. Even worse, it takes a critical ear and a careful listener to hear the difference.....
Jax, you have summed up the whole cable debate. A lot of the difference is down to the language used to describe the difference; 'significant' vs 'subtle'. But then you also have to really know your music and enjoy listening to it critically to notice any difference at all.
........ However, while many here, including me, would call the difference significant, most non hi fi nuts would call it subtle. Even worse, it takes a critical ear and a careful listener to hear the difference.....
Jax, you have summed up the whole cable debate. A lot of the difference is down to the language used to describe the difference; 'significant' vs 'subtle'. But then you also have to really know your music and enjoy listening to it critically to notice any difference at all.
Actually a lot of Hi Fi Nuts would say mains conditioners, speaker cable and interconnects make little or no difference. I think thats the point of the debate. Its not a division between people who are more obsessive than others. Its between people who care equally as much.
The debate could be reframed in a different way, do you want to be stood in a Hi Fi shop with £200 to spend on a cable that other obsessives think will make no difference whatsoever to your system or do you want to be in a record shop with £200 to buy albums?
The debate could be reframed in a different way, do you want to be stood in a Hi Fi shop with £200 to spend on a cable that other obsessives think will make no difference whatsoever to your system or do you want to be in a record shop with £200 to buy albums?
Think of it in different terms for example car tyres you can buy remoulds that do the same jobs as michelin but if you had the choice you'd go with michelin why ? , they do the same job ? it's because you know it's better, it's better made , it's better quality , it'll feel safer even though you won't physically be able to see it. Can't afford michelin , there are many types of tyres at many different prices so how do you choose, well you go to a garage and find out what best suits your budget and equipment. Back to HIFI your copper bell wire cable is the remoulds end of the market so moving to QED or CHORD or ? will be a significant improvement , it's better made , it's better quality , it'll sound better even though you won't physically be able to measure it although you may (should) be able to hear it. Speaking for myself i never really bothered with cable upgrading until i got some chord speaker cables with my then speaker purchase and since then i'm now ÿlike cable guy i get as much enjoyment out of the hobby with buying cables as the rest of it. Chord are my cable of choice just find the one which best suits your budget and equipment and try it if you don't like it go back to the remoulds.
I don't think that's a good analogy. There are obvious demonstrable reasons why remoulds are not as good as new tyres. It is not a matter of opinion, it can be shown why they are not as good.
Speaker wire bought from Maplins will be well made and last as long as any other speaker wire. I'm not saying I am one of these people, but for the interconnects/cables/conditioners make no difference brigade the ONLY difference is that one set of people are fooling themselves and one set of people aren't. It isn't a case that they are happy being further down the chain, its more that they don't believe there's any chain to be on. Some of these people have very high end systems and refuse to believe a mains cable or interconnect will make a jot of difference.
I don't know where I stand. My interconnects are all second hand and my speaker wire is of such a short length that I thought I'd plug for NVA just in case. I'm more inclined to believe they dont make much difference because despite being into Hi Fi for over a decade I've never heard that much difference.
I've also said before that if your listening to a Mahler symphony and your spending your time straining to listen to some barely audible tiny difference that a lot of people claim not to hear in the first place then your energies are going in all the wrong places.
Speaker wire bought from Maplins will be well made and last as long as any other speaker wire. I'm not saying I am one of these people, but for the interconnects/cables/conditioners make no difference brigade the ONLY difference is that one set of people are fooling themselves and one set of people aren't. It isn't a case that they are happy being further down the chain, its more that they don't believe there's any chain to be on. Some of these people have very high end systems and refuse to believe a mains cable or interconnect will make a jot of difference.
I don't know where I stand. My interconnects are all second hand and my speaker wire is of such a short length that I thought I'd plug for NVA just in case. I'm more inclined to believe they dont make much difference because despite being into Hi Fi for over a decade I've never heard that much difference.
I've also said before that if your listening to a Mahler symphony and your spending your time straining to listen to some barely audible tiny difference that a lot of people claim not to hear in the first place then your energies are going in all the wrong places.
Whilst there is definitely a difference when using different cables you have to keep things in perspective. A good upgrade from bell wire on a cheap system would be some 79 strand cable from the likes of QED. That should give quite a noticeable difference at very low cost. If, like someone else posted, you are thinking of upgrading your kit in the future then it maybe worthwhile buying something better.
What I can't understand is people who have lived with a cable for a considerable amount of time, upgraded to a more expensive cable and then carry out several A-B comparisons to see if they can hear the difference. If the difference is noticeable and you know your existing system well then the new cable should show up the difference in your system straight away without having to switch back and forth between cables.
I'm still using QED Original that I've had for years. I've thought about upgrading to Chord Carnival Silverscreen but am currently happy with the sound of my system so am keeping it as it is for the time being and putting the money towards a Sqeezebox Classic that I want instead.
What I can't understand is people who have lived with a cable for a considerable amount of time, upgraded to a more expensive cable and then carry out several A-B comparisons to see if they can hear the difference. If the difference is noticeable and you know your existing system well then the new cable should show up the difference in your system straight away without having to switch back and forth between cables.
I'm still using QED Original that I've had for years. I've thought about upgrading to Chord Carnival Silverscreen but am currently happy with the sound of my system so am keeping it as it is for the time being and putting the money towards a Sqeezebox Classic that I want instead.
nibbo:
What I can't understand is people who have lived with a cable for a considerable amount of time, upgraded to a more expensive cable and then carry out several A-B comparisons to see if they can hear the difference. If the difference is noticeable and you know your existing system well then the new cable should show up the difference in your system straight away without having to switch back and forth between cables.
I can sort of understand this comparison testing that people go through, it is so difficult with better equipment to actually tell whether one thing is "better" than another. The difference is in the sound of the sound and not quality, bell wire v's 5 quid a metre cable is easy but 5 quid a metre and 10 quid a metre the sound might well be different but whether one is better than another is totally in the ear of the beholder. To add to the confusion we now have a system that does sound different .... is it better? quite likely it is just different.
The tyre analogy can apply with comfort and sound values, a tyre of one sort can grip well but be noisy another might be quieter but be less grippy. There might not be an all singing all dancing tyre and the same applies to cable. If you drive a sports car get a wide grippy tyre, if you like classical music you might be looking for a clear sounding nuetral cable. You might have to read the reviews carefully and take a chance with your dollars on something that only got 3 stars, looks nasty but actually has the qualities you want...
You could always buy lots of different cable and connect it all to the speakers [ might have to make some large terminals to connect it all up ] this way the sound should be spot on..........
What I can't understand is people who have lived with a cable for a considerable amount of time, upgraded to a more expensive cable and then carry out several A-B comparisons to see if they can hear the difference. If the difference is noticeable and you know your existing system well then the new cable should show up the difference in your system straight away without having to switch back and forth between cables.
I can sort of understand this comparison testing that people go through, it is so difficult with better equipment to actually tell whether one thing is "better" than another. The difference is in the sound of the sound and not quality, bell wire v's 5 quid a metre cable is easy but 5 quid a metre and 10 quid a metre the sound might well be different but whether one is better than another is totally in the ear of the beholder. To add to the confusion we now have a system that does sound different .... is it better? quite likely it is just different.
The tyre analogy can apply with comfort and sound values, a tyre of one sort can grip well but be noisy another might be quieter but be less grippy. There might not be an all singing all dancing tyre and the same applies to cable. If you drive a sports car get a wide grippy tyre, if you like classical music you might be looking for a clear sounding nuetral cable. You might have to read the reviews carefully and take a chance with your dollars on something that only got 3 stars, looks nasty but actually has the qualities you want...
You could always buy lots of different cable and connect it all to the speakers [ might have to make some large terminals to connect it all up ] this way the sound should be spot on..........
For a speaker to work well the cable has to have a low series resistance and any large gauge wire will therefore give far better sound than small gauge.
Catcher:
The debate could be reframed in a different way, do you want to be stood in a Hi Fi shop with £200 to spend on a cable that other obsessives think will make no difference whatsoever to your system or do you want to be in a record shop with £200 to buy albums?
I think this from time to time when I catch myself looking at a new lens for my cameras or thinking that a power amp would be a great idea. You can get far too deep into the technical side of this. I did find myself laughing out loud at the "speaker cable elevators" on the russ andrews website though...
basic power filtering I can take like surge suppression, but these made me laugh
The debate could be reframed in a different way, do you want to be stood in a Hi Fi shop with £200 to spend on a cable that other obsessives think will make no difference whatsoever to your system or do you want to be in a record shop with £200 to buy albums?
I think this from time to time when I catch myself looking at a new lens for my cameras or thinking that a power amp would be a great idea. You can get far too deep into the technical side of this. I did find myself laughing out loud at the "speaker cable elevators" on the russ andrews website though...
basic power filtering I can take like surge suppression, but these made me laugh
So I shouldn't use Heywire then? Or doesn't it matter that there is only one strand but it is of quite large gauge compared to the fine strands in multi strand?
Just dug some Heywire out of the cupboard to compare with the thicker multistrand stuff I am currently [ no pun intended ] using .... Oh no !! I am comparing wire now,, good thing the wife is out.............
Just dug some Heywire out of the cupboard to compare with the thicker multistrand stuff I am currently [ no pun intended ] using .... Oh no !! I am comparing wire now,, good thing the wife is out.............
Try some Van Damme 2.5mm sq blue studio grade cable, cheap as chips, and transmits the full signal put out by your amp. I moved from some silly money Chord to the 4mm stuff (10m runs) and as well as preferring the sound, my bank balance really did prefer the expenses (or lack of)
This may help with your cable questions. I hope it's OK to post the link here. You will see that there is a direct correlation between wire length and thickness. I have used both Belden 5000UP and Van Damme Blue Studio Grade 6mm - both are very good and as much as you need.
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
Right ...thats the Heywire connected up.... any difference...
ask me after the cable has been run in for a week or two.... doh..
I think this topic has saved people a lot of money and annoyed the wire companies...
Septicman cheers for the website address it made interesting reading. Still not going back to bell wire though.. but I ain't gonna spend lots of dosh on pretty cables either .. [ not that it was terribly likely anyway ] ..
So how come better interconnects have positive affect on sound?
I was always a bit suspicious of expensive kettle leads as well..... just seems a bit silly. If all it is doing is conducting 240 volts at 50 cycles then it is only as good as the wires from the powerstation. A noise/surge supression device might be good to get rid of the occasional clunk. The biggest enemy as far as mains is concerned is the voltage drops that can happen, worse if you live near large servers in various parts of London..... If the lights go dull the amp must be getting a bit stressed as well..
I think this topic has saved people a lot of money and annoyed the wire companies...
Septicman cheers for the website address it made interesting reading. Still not going back to bell wire though.. but I ain't gonna spend lots of dosh on pretty cables either .. [ not that it was terribly likely anyway ] ..
So how come better interconnects have positive affect on sound?
I was always a bit suspicious of expensive kettle leads as well..... just seems a bit silly. If all it is doing is conducting 240 volts at 50 cycles then it is only as good as the wires from the powerstation. A noise/surge supression device might be good to get rid of the occasional clunk. The biggest enemy as far as mains is concerned is the voltage drops that can happen, worse if you live near large servers in various parts of London..... If the lights go dull the amp must be getting a bit stressed as well..
You may find both of these articles interesting with reference to interconnects. They do come from a commercial site, and I do use their LC1 interconnects.
I'm not sure why people think that cables should have an effect on sound, unless the electrical characteristics of the cable have in some way been manipulated. I can't see how this would be a good thing anyway, given that speakers, amps etc. are almost certainly designed exclusively on bog standard copper cable, in conjunction with sophisticated analysis kit. It would not make sense to design on "exotic", cable because too many barriers would be presented to designing a product that performed well in the majority of situations, ie it would have to be a compromise. Also, do people think that the copper wire included in their cables is unique to a particular manufacturer?
The other thing rarely, if ever, mentioned in the cable debates is the physiology of human hearing. Harbeth have been mentioned on this thread, regarding 79 strand cable. On their website, there is also mention of the characteristics of human hearing. Apparently, if you listen to a piece, stop, swap cables, and then replay the piece you will ALWAYS hear a difference because of the way the brain interprets sound. Because of this, speaker designers etc. always design their products with the aid of analysis equipment. Products are not designed on the basis of the human ear alone because the ear is unreliable. Go to Harbeth, and in their user group forum, search under the word "cable". Other sacred cows put to the sword include speaker jumpers.
http://www.bluejeanscable.co.uk/articles/humrejection.htm
http://www.bluejeanscable.co.uk/store/audio/LC1-design-notes.htm
I'm not sure why people think that cables should have an effect on sound, unless the electrical characteristics of the cable have in some way been manipulated. I can't see how this would be a good thing anyway, given that speakers, amps etc. are almost certainly designed exclusively on bog standard copper cable, in conjunction with sophisticated analysis kit. It would not make sense to design on "exotic", cable because too many barriers would be presented to designing a product that performed well in the majority of situations, ie it would have to be a compromise. Also, do people think that the copper wire included in their cables is unique to a particular manufacturer?
The other thing rarely, if ever, mentioned in the cable debates is the physiology of human hearing. Harbeth have been mentioned on this thread, regarding 79 strand cable. On their website, there is also mention of the characteristics of human hearing. Apparently, if you listen to a piece, stop, swap cables, and then replay the piece you will ALWAYS hear a difference because of the way the brain interprets sound. Because of this, speaker designers etc. always design their products with the aid of analysis equipment. Products are not designed on the basis of the human ear alone because the ear is unreliable. Go to Harbeth, and in their user group forum, search under the word "cable". Other sacred cows put to the sword include speaker jumpers.
http://www.bluejeanscable.co.uk/articles/humrejection.htm
http://www.bluejeanscable.co.uk/store/audio/LC1-design-notes.htm
idc
Well-known member
Septicman:
The other thing rarely, if ever, mentioned in the cable debates is the physiology of human hearing. Harbeth have been mentioned on this thread, regarding 79 strand cable. On their website, there is also mention of the characteristics of human hearing. Apparently, if you listen to a piece, stop, swap cables, and then replay the piece you will ALWAYS hear a difference because of the way the brain interprets sound.
If this was the case, then how come the cable sceptics cannot hear a difference between cables and those who do say there is a difference find the difference is consistant between cables?
The other thing rarely, if ever, mentioned in the cable debates is the physiology of human hearing. Harbeth have been mentioned on this thread, regarding 79 strand cable. On their website, there is also mention of the characteristics of human hearing. Apparently, if you listen to a piece, stop, swap cables, and then replay the piece you will ALWAYS hear a difference because of the way the brain interprets sound.
If this was the case, then how come the cable sceptics cannot hear a difference between cables and those who do say there is a difference find the difference is consistant between cables?
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