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Sibilance after Bi-wiring

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Adam W.

Well-known member
Aug 19, 2020
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Please excuse my ignorance of this subject. How does the amp know speaker terminals A and B are connected to the same set of speakers and will therefore output 80W?

Is it the case that A and B will output 40W at 8ohms each, equaling 80W?

Would there be any difference in performance in terms of powering the speakers?
 

abacus

Well-known member
Sep 24, 2008
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When you have A & B selected they are joined together (Connected in parallel) just like connecting both cables to a single plug or a single cable with the speaker links in. (Assuming a stereo amp you only have 2 channels of amplification no matter how many speaker terminals you have or the number of speakers connected)

Bill
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
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Please excuse my ignorance of this subject. How does the amp know speaker terminals A and B are connected to the same set of speakers and will therefore output 80W?

Is it the case that A and B will output 40W at 8ohms each, equaling 80W?

Would there be any difference in performance in terms of powering the speakers?
Hi,
There is only one amplifier section, so connecting two sets of speakers to A and B means :
  1. Speaker set A is selected - outputs 80watts
  2. Speaker set B is selected - outputs 80watts
  3. Speaker set A AND B are selected - outputs more than 80watts, depending on amplifier power supply capability etc.
When speaker set A and B are allowed to operate together, the amplifier sees a reduced impedance, such that if both speaker sets are 8 ohms, then the amplifier sees 4ohms - manual states 120watts into 4ohms.

I would not implement two sets of speakers as some speakers dip below 8ohms and being in parallel the amplifier maximum current circuit will cut out the amplifier output.

For your biwiring, i assume you are using speaker output A, with two bananas terminated, and at the speaker using 4 bananas, one pair connected to the low frequency (bass), and the other conncted to the HF connection, and the metals links removed ?

Regards,
Shadders.
 
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Gray

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2015
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There is only one amplifier section, so connecting the speakers to A and B means :
  1. Speaker set A is selected - outputs 80watts
  2. Speaker set B is selected - outputs 80watts
  3. Speaker set A AND B are selected - outputs more than 80watts, depending on amplifier power supply capability etc.
Think you might have made a mistake there Shadders.
In 3, the amp can't give out more power than it does in 1 or 2.
(but, crucially here, it won't give less of course).
 
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shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
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Think you might have made a mistake there Shadders.
In 3, the amp can't give out more power than it does in 1 or 2.
Hi,
It can since it is nominal 80watts in 8ohms, and 120watts into 4ohms. If the two sets of speakers are 8ohms nominal, then in parallel they are 4ohms nominal.

If a single set of speakers is 4ohms nominal impedance, then the amplifier outputs 120watts.

EDIT : I have added to the first sentence of my original post to make it clearer.

Regards,
Shadders.
 
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Gray

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2015
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Hi,
It can since it is nominal 80watts in 8ohms, and 120watts into 4ohms. If the two sets of speakers are 8ohms nominal, then in parallel they are 4ohms nominal.

If a single set of speakers is 4ohms nominal impedance, then the amplifier outputs 120watts.

Regards,
Shadders.
Sorry, yes of course with another pair of speakers connected 👍
Not sure what I was thinking.
 
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Adam W.

Well-known member
Aug 19, 2020
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Hi,
There is only one amplifier section, so connecting two sets of speakers to A and B means :
  1. Speaker set A is selected - outputs 80watts
  2. Speaker set B is selected - outputs 80watts
  3. Speaker set A AND B are selected - outputs more than 80watts, depending on amplifier power supply capability etc.
When speaker set A and B are allowed to operate together, the amplifier sees a reduced impedance, such that if both speaker sets are 8 ohms, then the amplifier sees 4ohms - manual states 120watts into 4ohms.

I would not implement two sets of speakers as some speakers dip below 8ohms and being in parallel the amplifier maximum current circuit will cut out the amplifier output.

For your biwiring, i assume you are using speaker output A, with two bananas terminated, and at the speaker using 4 bananas, one pair connected to the low frequency (bass), and the other conncted to the HF connection, and the metals links removed ?

Regards,
Shadders.
Yes. The Canare 4S11 is recommended for biwiring as it is a four conductor cable.

Just to be clear: if I connected 2 sets of cables (using A and B at the same time) to one set of speakers, the amp would still output 80W/8ohms? It can tell A and B are powering the same (one pair) of speakers?
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
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Yes. The Canare 4S11 is recommended for biwiring as it is a four conductor cable.

Just to be clear: if I connected 2 sets of cables (using A and B at the same time) to one set of speakers, the amp would still output 80W/8ohms? It can tell A and B are powering the same (one pair) of speakers?
Hi,
Yes, with cables from A to the single speakers set, and B to the same single speaker set, selecting A+B as the output on the amplifier, then it will be 80watts int 8ohms.

The amplifier cannot tell whether you are powering the same pair, or two pairs of speakers. It only sees the impedance of what ever you connect to it.

Regards,
Shadders.
 
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Adam W.

Well-known member
Aug 19, 2020
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Hi,
Yes, with cables from A to the single speakers set, and B to the same single speaker set, selecting A+B as the output on the amplifier, then it will be 80watts int 8ohms.

The amplifier cannot tell whether you are powering the same pair, or two pairs of speakers. It only sees the impedance of what ever you connect to it.

Regards,
Shadders.
This is the way bi-wiring is traditionally done?

The Wharfedale manual recommends bi-wiring. It claims it can improve aspects of sound quality.
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
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This is the way bi-wiring is traditionally done?

The Wharfedale manual recommends bi-wiring. It claims it can improve aspects of sound quality.
Hi,
I don't know - it is one way, and another is to use the same output such as speaker set A and two sets of cables in parallel to the speakers.

Did you remove the speaker terminal connection plate ?

Regards,
Shadders.
 

Adam W.

Well-known member
Aug 19, 2020
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70
Do you mean replace the plates with all four binding posts on each speaker connected to output A on the amp?

Right now I'm using a single set of cables (2 bananas to each speaker) along with the speaker plates and the amount/lack of sibilance is normal.

I'm using standard 14awg ofc wire.
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
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Do you mean replace the plates with all four binding posts on each speaker connected to output A on the amp?

Right now I'm using a single set of cables (2 bananas to each speaker) along with the speaker plates and the amount/lack of sibilance is normal.
Hi,
OK, i am not sure what you have done, but you complained of sibilance, and said you biwired the speakers.

How did you biwire the speakers before to get the increased sibilance ?

Regards,
Shadders.
 

Adam W.

Well-known member
Aug 19, 2020
68
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Sorry, this is a little confusing!

I biwired the speakers using the Canare 4 conductor wire. I connected 4 banana plugs to each speaker (with plates removed) and 4 banana plugs to output A on the amp (2 bananas to L and 2 to R). Output B on the amp was not used.

This is what increased sibilance.

I switched back to standard 14awg wires (2 bananas to each speaker) and sibilance levels returned to normal.

I'm not claiming that wires cause sibilance. It's just what I experienced.
 

Al ears

Moderator
Sorry, this is a little confusing!

I biwired the speakers using the Canare 4 conductor wire. I connected 4 banana plugs to each speaker (with plates removed) and 4 banana plugs to output A on the amp (2 bananas to L and 2 to R). Output B on the amp was not used.

This is what increased sibilance.

I switched back to standard 14awg wires (2 bananas to each speaker) and sibilance levels returned to normal.

I'm not claiming that wires cause sibilance. It's just what I experienced.
That's an odd way of doing it. How do you connect two banana plugs at the amp end?
Traditionally you would simply twist those two wires together and insert them into one banana plug.
Making sure you were joining the correct two wires obviously.
Are you sure your cables are wired correctly?
Of course the simplest way is to ignore bi-wiring completely until you can bi-amp.
 

Adam W.

Well-known member
Aug 19, 2020
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The Canare 4s11 has 4 conductors. 1 end has each of the 4 wires connected to 4 bananas. The other end has 4 wires connected to 2 bananas (2 wires in each of the 2 plugs).
 
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shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
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I biwired the speakers using the Canare 4 conductor wire. I connected 4 banana plugs to each speaker (with plates removed) and 4 banana plugs to output A on the amp (2 bananas to L and 2 to R). Output B on the amp was not used.

This is what increased sibilance.
Hi,
OK - so each cable had 2 banana plugs amplifier end, and 4 banana plugs speaker end.

Do the same as above, but do NOT remove the plates, and see if the sibilance remains as before. (not increased).

Regards,
Shadders.
 

Adam W.

Well-known member
Aug 19, 2020
68
37
70
Let me ask you guys a question.

If you owned the equipment I do (CXA81 and Wharfedale 11.4s), how would you bi-wire?

What would be the acceptable way?

I'm not saying it makes any difference.
 

shadders

Well-known member
Nov 19, 2009
152
88
18,670
Let me ask you guys a question.

If you owned the equipment I do (CXA81 and Wharfedale 11.4s), how would you bi-wire?

What would be the acceptable way?

I'm not saying it makes any difference.
Hi,
I would not biwire, as it does change the circuit as you have implemented it.

As per my post #45, can you implement the biwire but do not take out the plates. The sibilance should not be any worse.

Regards,
Shadders.
 

Adam W.

Well-known member
Aug 19, 2020
68
37
70
I will attempt to do it. Unfortunately, it will have to be later as I'm working today.

I will likely return the bi-wire cables at some point if it's best to use single wire.
 

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