Shame AVI nobbled their Lab series of amps

[davedotco]

C'mon guys and gals. Didn't want this to turn in to another them and us. I thought I'd ask the question about integrated amps as Ashley has now re-joined.

I'm not going to sell my Leema and PMCs, even if it is riddled with distortion, according to the active experts.

The only thing Ashley and I have in common: Classic and vintage cars.

As Steve says, you won't hear any difference between amplifiers that aren't being operated beyond their limits.

I hope you don't think I was somehow suggesting you sell your current hi fi system because I'm not.

Really what happened was that I got fed up that every time I looked at an AVI thread I saw misleading drivel about us, always from the same small group.

I do still have a couple of classic cars.

I'm not suggesting anything. I appreciate those who own active/powered speakers as much as traditional passive set-ups.

If distortion is apperent then I haven't detected any in my system. If that's defined by clarity then in isolastion my set-up hits the mark at every level (based on what I want and expect from a stereo kit).

Yes, my passion for classic cars is without bounds. I don't own a 'classic' to date, but have owned many - not the exotica of yours - nearly 40 years of driving with a clean record.

As you've probably noticed, when people hear DMs, they're so blown away with them, they post and it drives forum warriors up the pole, so they rush to denial instead of waiting to they have an opportunity to hear some.

Davedotco tries to tell people that even various cheapies are pretty special but....

There are a fair few, usually new, members of this board who post asking about setups that suit their needs, often streaming from mobile devices or online services. The general reaction of the forum is to stear them down the usual 'legacy' route of integrated amplifier and passive speakers, I often try and offer an alternative.

Budget is often quite tight but in many cases all that is required is a decent (usb) dac (or an AEX) with the bulk of the budgey spent on a pair of active speakers but this often does not satisfy the needs of branding or bling. We have seen examples, in this very thread, of posters who simply do not have a clue having their say and this is commonplace, but the 'etiquette' of this forum is to let people have thrir say, even when it is absolute and complete nonsense.

For the sake of balance, I must point out that the cheap (sub DM5) actives, mostly sold for 'home studio' use are quite variable in quality, some with an unrefined sound, others with high noise levels and others simply cheap crap. However the good examples, Yamaha, Presonus, Equator, Adam as well as some remarkably compedent 'unbranded' models are very good and eminently suited for modern non 'legacy' setups.

 

[plastic penguin]

C'mon guys and gals. Didn't want this to turn in to another them and us. I thought I'd ask the question about integrated amps as Ashley has now re-joined.

I'm not going to sell my Leema and PMCs, even if it is riddled with distortion, according to the active experts.

The only thing Ashley and I have in common: Classic and vintage cars.

As Steve says, you won't hear any difference between amplifiers that aren't being operated beyond their limits.

I hope you don't think I was somehow suggesting you sell your current hi fi system because I'm not.

Really what happened was that I got fed up that every time I looked at an AVI thread I saw misleading drivel about us, always from the same small group.

I do still have a couple of classic cars.

I'm not suggesting anything. I appreciate those who own active/powered speakers as much as traditional passive set-ups.

If distortion is apperent then I haven't detected any in my system. If that's defined by clarity then in isolastion my set-up hits the mark at every level (based on what I want and expect from a stereo kit).

Yes, my passion for classic cars is without bounds. I don't own a 'classic' to date, but have owned many - not the exotica of yours - nearly 40 years of driving with a clean record.

As you've probably noticed, when people hear DMs, they're so blown away with them, they post and it drives forum warriors up the pole, so they rush to denial instead of waiting to they have an opportunity to hear some.

Davedotco tries to tell people that even various cheapies are pretty special but....

There are a fair few, usually new, members of this board who post asking about setups that suit their needs, often streaming from mobile devices or online services. The general reaction of the forum is to stear them down the usual 'legacy' route of integrated amplifier and passive speakers, I often try and offer an alternative.

Budget is often quite tight but in many cases all that is required is a decent (usb) dac (or an AEX) and a pair of active speakers but this often does not satisfy the needs of branding or bling. We have seen examples, in this very thread, of posters who simply do not have a clue having their say and this is commonplace, but the 'etiquette' of this forum is to let people have thrir say, even when it is absolute and complete nonsense.

For the sake of balance, I must point out that the cheap (sub DM5) actives, mostly sold for 'home studio' use are quite variable in quality, some with an unrefined sound, others with high noise levels and others simply cheap crap. However the good examples, Yamaha, Presonus, Equator, Adam as well as some remarkably compedent 'unbranded' models are very good and eminently suited for modern non 'legacy' setups.

Can I just say for the record that I've occasionally recommended to newbies to perhaps try and use actives. Even though I never heard them, some people's requirements scream ACTIVES.

 

[steve_1979]

To a point I'd agree, but the window of these limits is way to small to be practical to me. I find that at almost talking level of db, amps of £250 might sound the same as any high priced amp, but most people listen to music above this level. As soon as you go above this relatively low db level, these amps will sound dramatically different, and so practically, IMO, this argument is irrelevant and shouldn't be used.

I know what you're saying and totally agree but at the same time the argument isn't irrelevant either. Dave puts it best when he says "It's all about requirements and expectations."

If you listen at a close distance, at low volume levels with easy to drive speakers then there's no reason why a £230 amplifier won't sound just as good as an amplifier costing many thousands of pounds. But as soon as you want to listen from a further distance, at higher volume levels and/or with difficult to drive speakers the requirement from the amplifier increases exponentially. Add to that if you want to boost the bass a bit or listen to high dynamic ranged music (or movie audio) then that will exponentially increase the power requirments even more.

So 50 watts from a cheap amplifier with a small PSU really is all that many people will ever need. But for the majority people, if they are to always avoid clipping, they will require much more from their amplifier. Often several hundreds of watts more.

 

[Alberich]

Ashley,

I myself am intrigued and open minded to what the DM10's or similar can bring to the table, however I'm less confident in the suggestions that they're the answer to all of our sonic woes and they practically render any passive system obsolete.

They're claimed to excell with classical music but I have a hard time believing they can rival larger multi way or planar magnetic speakers (given adequate amplification) when it comes to scale and separation of an orchestra.
They're size alone renders it near impossible. And I have a soft spot for standmounters.

Sure, they may well be the solution for many people and certain environments but they certainly can't be the answer to all our diverse and individual needs.

As far as i see it, what a lot of people have a problem with is the billing that they crush absolutely anything they go up against.

Alberich.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Ashley,

I myself am intrigued and open minded to what the DM10's or similar can bring to the table, however I'm less confident in the suggestions that they're the answer to all of our sonic woes and they practically render any passive system obsolete.

They're claimed to excell with classical music but I have a hard time believing they can rival larger multi way or planar magnetic speakers (given adequate amplification) when it comes to scale and separation of an orchestra.
They're size alone renders it near impossible. And I have a soft spot for standmounters.

Sure, they may well be the solution for many people and certain environments but they certainly can't be the answer to all our diverse and individual needs.

As far as i see it, what a lot of people have a problem with is the billing that they crush absolutely anything they go up against.

Alberich.

Until you have heard them you wont know.no amount of conjecture can help you here as there are many barriers to overcome.

 

[lindsayt]

Lindsay

Mine is a statement of fact

Ashley James. No it wasn't a statement of fact. It was statement of fanciful marketing hyperbole. It was you promoting your products way beyond their actual levels of performance.

and you ought to know that because reasonable explanations of the benefits of active speakers have appeared here regularly.

And you ought to know better because reasonable explanations of the disadvantages of active speakers have appeared here regularly too.

Explanations that you never acknowledge because it doesn't suit your marketing message.

I don't think you understand them because you usually refute them and respond with pseudo technical nonsense.

I understand the actual advantages of active speakers very well.

Can you please give me 3 examples where have come out with pseudo technical nonsense? Together with a clear explanation in layman's terms as to why it was pseudo technical nonsense?

I bet your can't.

The reality is that it's not me that comes out with pseudo technical nonsense. It's you that does. Pseudo technical nonsense that you use for marketing your products.

In simple terms what I've said, and this applies to any competent actives, (a lot aren't) the following benefits apply 1. Because the Amp comes after the crossover, it is connected directly to its driver and can control it better. Typically about 300 times better. This is a proven fact.

This is pseudo technical nonsense, because the amplifiers in your active speakers and in my systems are not intelligent. Neither are the speakers. It's not as if the amplifier looks at what the speaker is doing and adjusts its' output accordingly.

If by “control” you mean damping, yes it is true that active speakers allow the amplifier to exert greater damping over the bass cones than a passive speaker. However, for a typical bass driver the difference is most definitely not 300 times. It is much much lower than that.

Greater damping from the amplifier is not necessarily a good thing. It all depends if the bass driver is under-damped, critically damped or over damped already from a mechanical point of view.

2. Crossover filters can be much steeper on Active speakers, so that out of band nasties can be rendered inaudible. We use 8th order filters or 48dB/Oct because with a DSP evaluation package that enabled us to listen to speakers while we moved the crossover up and down and change the slope, we were able to show that anything less was audible. 2nd order was really bad and yet you've stated 1st would be fine.

How many op amps are in the signal path of your active crossovers? Which op amps are they?

How much voltage is going through each of these when your speakers are outputting 35 dbs (at 1 metre).

As to whether 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 8th order crossovers are best for any particular speaker – well that depends on the speaker. Your speakers may sound best with 8th order to your ears. Other speakers sound best with 1st order crossovers.

There's a lot more than these two, but they're enough on their own.

As far as members of this forum are concerned, I expect they'd like to know how this might help them, so I'll explain.

If you go and audition an inexpensive pair of active speakers from a reputable company like Yamaha, they'll cost about £250 and work from your phone, you'll find they're much more clear than whatever you have now

You are stating that £250 Yamaha speakers will sound better than whatever I have now.

Do you even know what I have now?

And you accuse other people of criticising your products when they've never heard them?

I find that hypocritical.

You're criticising my system when you've never heard it!!

and they'll image better. The drivers will be very cheap, yet this will still be obvious. We have a number of members of our forum who have posted reviews explaining this.

Here's an excerpt from Gilbert Briggs book Loudspeakers. This was published in 1956

 

[davedotco]

C'mon guys and gals. Didn't want this to turn in to another them and us. I thought I'd ask the question about integrated amps as Ashley has now re-joined.

I'm not going to sell my Leema and PMCs, even if it is riddled with distortion, according to the active experts.

The only thing Ashley and I have in common: Classic and vintage cars.

As Steve says, you won't hear any difference between amplifiers that aren't being operated beyond their limits.

I hope you don't think I was somehow suggesting you sell your current hi fi system because I'm not.

Really what happened was that I got fed up that every time I looked at an AVI thread I saw misleading drivel about us, always from the same small group.

I do still have a couple of classic cars.

I'm not suggesting anything. I appreciate those who own active/powered speakers as much as traditional passive set-ups.

If distortion is apperent then I haven't detected any in my system. If that's defined by clarity then in isolastion my set-up hits the mark at every level (based on what I want and expect from a stereo kit).

Yes, my passion for classic cars is without bounds. I don't own a 'classic' to date, but have owned many - not the exotica of yours - nearly 40 years of driving with a clean record.

As you've probably noticed, when people hear DMs, they're so blown away with them, they post and it drives forum warriors up the pole, so they rush to denial instead of waiting to they have an opportunity to hear some.

Davedotco tries to tell people that even various cheapies are pretty special but....

There are a fair few, usually new, members of this board who post asking about setups that suit their needs, often streaming from mobile devices or online services. The general reaction of the forum is to stear them down the usual 'legacy' route of integrated amplifier and passive speakers, I often try and offer an alternative.

Budget is often quite tight but in many cases all that is required is a decent (usb) dac (or an AEX) and a pair of active speakers but this often does not satisfy the needs of branding or bling. We have seen examples, in this very thread, of posters who simply do not have a clue having their say and this is commonplace, but the 'etiquette' of this forum is to let people have thrir say, even when it is absolute and complete nonsense.

For the sake of balance, I must point out that the cheap (sub DM5) actives, mostly sold for 'home studio' use are quite variable in quality, some with an unrefined sound, others with high noise levels and others simply cheap crap. However the good examples, Yamaha, Presonus, Equator, Adam as well as some remarkably compedent 'unbranded' models are very good and eminently suited for modern non 'legacy' setups.

Can I just say for the record that I've occasionally recommended to newbies to perhaps try and use actives. Even though I never heard them, some people's requirements scream ACTIVES.

This is most definitely the case, and for two different reasons.

Firstly, many new users will not use traditional sources, they will stream from a 'computer', anything from a desktop to a phone. Sometimes active speakers can be driven directly, from a good soundcard say, or from a simple inexpensive usb dac. This allows the bulk of the budget to be spent on thw (active) speakers which means a lot if the budget is tight.

Secondly, many speakers of this type are designed for 'nearfield' use, whilst this term is rather overused, it does mean that some models are balanced to give a more powerful bass output than 'normal' speakers.

In the better designs this gives a much punchier, weightier bass that suits certain kinds of music very well, unlike similarly priced passive designs which do not have the necessary control to handle the heavier bass.

That said, there is no substitute for listening, there are some real 'duffers' among the 'gems' and the music is presented in a different way to most hi-fi setups, you need to try, but the differences are quite obvious.

 

[Ashley James]

You're absolutely right Dave. Most enquiries we get these days are from people with Spotify or some streaming service. They use tablets and phones (almost always Apple), Sonos and good headphones. Their dads had hi fi and they don't want it. They want sound that compares with their headphones in a compact package.

We also get older people anxious to be rid of dust collecting boxes because they look horrible, take up too much space and their wives don't like and can't use. They want access to all media, not only music. This includes photos, YouTube, Vimeo etc as well as TV and Movies usually via streaming services. They often buy big TVs at the same time, but more an more watch on Tablets etc now. Very few have computers any more, but just lately we've had buyers with Brennan's and Cocktail X10s

The market has changed an awful lot in the last few years and luckily we made the right product for it or we'd have shut down years ago.

 

[chebby]

You're absolutely right Dave. Most enquiries we get these days are from people with Spotify or some streaming service. They use tablets and phones (almost always Apple), Sonos and good headphones. Their dads had hi fi and they don't want it. They want sound that compares with their headphones in a compact package.

We also get older people anxious to be rid of dust collecting boxes because they look horrible, take up too much space and their wives don't like and can't use. They want access to all media, not only music. This includes photos, YouTube, Vimeo etc as well as TV and Movies usually via streaming services. They often buy big TVs at the same time, but more an more watch on Tablets etc now. Very few have computers any more, but just lately we've had buyers with Brennan's and Cocktail X10s

The market has changed an awful lot in the last few years and luckily we made the right product for it or we'd have shut down years ago.

With all respect to your (successfully exploited) niche, the kind of people you are describing are walking out of John Lewis with B&W Zeppelin Wireless, or a Sonos Play. A small subset of them might (just might) stump up the extra for a £595 Naim Mu-so QB, or a Ruark R2/R4 if they've seen them in the Sunday style supplements or GQ or whatever.

They have never been in a hi-fi shop and they couldn't explain the difference between 'passive powered' or 'active' even if you offered a £1000 reward. (Few people here could either because active just means 'amps in the cabinet' to most folk!)

They are NEVER going to join an online hi-fi forum and they will never hear about your products unless - by some incredible fluke - they know someone with a pair.

The nearest they will approach anything remotely similar to DMs is if they've met someone with a bedroom studio and some active monitors. (Probably Rokit or similar.)

So, i'm afraid you ARE appealling to people's dads with all those traditional hi-fi-esque wood cabinet looks and £1600 price tag. Your speakers would look normal in a 1970s living room like the one I grew up in.

No trails have been blazed. They'd even appeal - aesthetically - to me (especially if available in white oak or similar) and I am 53 and have two adult daughters.

 

[spiny norman]

That doesn't sound like the way to have sold thousands of pairs of speakers, chebby. Are you sure?

 

[chebby]

Seems ok to me.

For the last 10 years AVI have sold everything they've been able to make with orders exceeding production capacity at times. No debts and oodles of cash in the bank.

Hardly a failing strategy when compared against the traditional HiFi market. Naim had to be sold off to Focal to enable Paul Stevenson's pension to be paid.

JC

I'm not knocking their sales or their admirable bank account. Well done!

Just not accepting that AVI have re-invented the future of home audio, or represent anything but a small, elite (and rather traditional) British hi-fi brand despite it's claims otherwise.

 

[chebby]

That doesn't sound like the way to have sold thousands of pairs of speakers, chebby. Are you sure?

Thousands ARE a very small number compared to the output from Sonos, or B&W, or even Ruark. (Especially if you mean in total rather than per-year.)

Rega - for instance - sell 2000 turntables per month (2015). 2000 of those crumby, distorted old 'legacy' products that only dad's want.

24,000 units per year (+ goodness only knows how many amps and DACs and CD players and passive speakers) and they are a small company who most of my friends, family and colleagues have never heard of!

 

[jcbrum]

Seems ok to me.

For the last 10 years AVI have sold everything they've been able to make with orders exceeding production capacity at times. No debts and oodles of cash in the bank.

Hardly a failing strategy when compared against the traditional HiFi market. Naim had to be sold off to Focal to enable Paul Stephenson's pension to be paid.

Linn nearly went bust and had to turn to selling downloads and streamers to survive.

JC

 

[Ashley James]

Seems ok to me.

For the last 10 years AVI have sold everything they've been able to make with orders exceeding production capacity at times. No debts and oodles of cash in the bank.

Hardly a failing strategy when compared against the traditional HiFi market. Naim had to be sold off to Focal to enable Paul Stevenson's pension to be paid.

JC

I'm not knocking their sales or their admirable bank account. Well done!

Just not accepting that AVI have re-invented the future of home audio, or represent anything but a small, elite (and rather traditional) British hi-fi brand despite it's claims otherwise.

In the real world Chebby, our products are very high end. I think there might be a breakdown of what sells and for what price on the WHF website. It's surprisingly inexpensive.

There is no future for home audio beyond inexpensive docks IMO, but there is for music collectors and professionals associated with the recording and production of music, film and broadcast. For example we've just sold, via our Indian agents, to a top Bollywood sound man and we already have BBC types and others around the world, even NZ radio OB.

 

[chebby]

I await with interest Mr Jimes's takeover bid for Apple.

The only relevance of their DM10s to Apple is the ability to connect with a Toslink/mini-Toslink cable to an AEX or ATV.

They share that with half the world's DACs and/or other hi-fi and audio products.

There is no exclusivity in this regard. Do they even have the 'Made For iPhone' logo on their packaging, or marketing material?

 

[spiny norman]

Having just done a little research and seen what you mean by 'oodles' (ie about the price of a decent spec Ford Mondeo), I await with interest Mr Jimes's takeover bid for Apple.

By contrast, the company you seem to be obsessed with as some kind of demon (perhaps someone was bitten by a SNAIC as a child?), appears to have a net worth of just under 200x as much. So yes, absolutely on its knees.

 

[jcbrum]

I await with interest Mr Jimes's takeover bid for Apple.

If that's a veiled way of saying you're looking for a job, Norm, there's a little book by Dale Carnegie you should read first.

JC

 

[spiny norman]

The only relevance of their DM10s to Apple is the ability to connect with a Toslink/mini-Toslink cable to an AEX or ATV.

They share that with half the world's DACs and/or other hi-fi and audio products.

Oh right: I got the impression that the two companies strode hand-in-hand in their quest to enlighten the world's listeners.

There is no exclusivity in this regard. Do they even have the 'Made For iPhone' logo on their packaging, or marketing material

I think to get that you have to either have a suitable dock or a USB-based connection able to also control the connected iOS device. Which I guess costs money.

 

[Ashley James]

I await with interest Mr Jimes's takeover bid for Apple.

The only relevance of their DM10s to Apple is the ability to connect with a Toslink/mini-Toslink cable to an AEX or ATV.

They share that with half the world's DACs and/or other hi-fi and audio products.

There is no exclusivity in this regard. Do they even have the 'Made For iPhone' logo on their packaging, or marketing material?

the point you're missing Chebby is that Apple have driven the headphone market, which is considerably larger than specialist hi fi. Headphones are far better than almost all speakers, but some customers want them and after a few hi fi shops, they start searching and find us. It's been happening for ten years.

So lots of our customers had never heard of us, but wanted speakers comparable with good headphones.

 

[spiny norman]

If that's a veiled way of saying you're looking for a job, Norm

It isn't, and anyway I'm not sure the company could sustain a 50% increase in workforce.

 

[jcbrum]

 

[chebby]

In the real world Chebby, our products are very high end. I think there might be a breakdown of what sells and for what price on the WHF website. It's surprisingly inexpensive.

There is no future for home audio beyond inexpensive docks IMO, but there is for music collectors and professionals associated with the recording and production of music, film and broadcast. For example we've just sold, via our Indian agents, to a top Bollywood sound man and we already have BBC types and others around the world, even NZ radio OB.

When you see recent footage (or photos) of any BBC studio there are a plethora of brands represented by their monitors so I don't know what a 'BBC type' means nowadays.

It use to mean someone using a range of licensed, BBC designed monitors (from a select few British manufacturers) driven by bespoke Quad or Chord amplification (active and passive configurations). That was 30 years ago. Nowadays they just seem to pop down the local 'pro-shop' with some petty cash except for the 'big-money' monitors from PMC, or even Harbeth (according to their newsletters).

 

[Ashley James]

In the real world Chebby, our products are very high end. I think there might be a breakdown of what sells and for what price on the WHF website. It's surprisingly inexpensive.

There is no future for home audio beyond inexpensive docks IMO, but there is for music collectors and professionals associated with the recording and production of music, film and broadcast. For example we've just sold, via our Indian agents, to a top Bollywood sound man and we already have BBC types and others around the world, even NZ radio OB.

When you see recent (or photos) of any BBC studio nowadays there are a plethora of brands represented by their monitors so I don't know what a 'BBC type' means nowadays.

It use to mean someone using a range of licensed, BBC designed monitors (from a select few British manufacturers) driven by bespoke Quad or Chord amplification. That was 30 years ago. Nowadays they just seem to pop down the local 'pro-shop' with some petty cash except for the 'big-money' monitors from PMC, or even Harbeth (according to their newsletters).

We have a significant number of customers involved in broadcast and music production, usually recording acoustic stuff where accuracy is needed. These included people doing work for the BBC, classical record label, musicians etc.

Pop or modern music is different and monitors are assessed differently. Typically producers take the view that if the mix sounds good in the car, the monitor must me good. It's no good telling them a piano will sound more realistic on good speakers.

 

[spiny norman]

Yes, I got the reference, and recognised how terribly clever you were to make it. Interesting that Mr Carnagey sometimes got people's names wrong, too, including his own.

 

[spiny norman]

We have a significant number of customers involved in broadcast and music production, usually recording acoustic stuff where accuracy is needed. These included people doing work for the BBC, classical record label, musicians etc.

Pop or modern music is different and monitors are assessed differently. Typically producers take the view that if the mix sounds good in the car, the monitor must me good. It's no good telling them a piano will sound more realistic on good speakers.

I think you've just been Trumped, chebby ;-)