Sceptical about Atmos

[FunkyMonkey]

How does Atmos sound better when without overhead speakers?

In other words, what other benefits are there?

 

[bigboss]

How does Atmos sound better when without overhead speakers?

In other words, what other benefits are there?

Do you mean how it sounds with speakers that sit on top of your surrounds and bouncing sound off the ceiling? I've never heard them, but the results can be extremely variable and dependent on the type of ceiling etc. I don't think they will be as good as in-ceiling speakers.

 

[ellisdj]

They will be a compromise but might give sense of sound elevation to the overall presentation according the THX interview.

They didn't think very much of them in that interview

 

[Frank Harvey]

How does Atmos sound better when without overhead speakers?

In other words, what other benefits are there?

I'm presuming you mean if you listenined to Atmos in standard 5.1.

The only difference you'd hear in this case is if the Atmos track was mastered better than the standard 5.1/7.1 soundtrack. But, you'll normally find on Atmos discs, the Dolby TrueHD track is just a downmix of the Atmos track (except for when they produce a dedicated 5.1/7.1 mix). Bit rates etc are identical between TrueHD and Atmos.

 

[ellisdj]

2 centres? Intruiging. Always thought the weakness in 5.1 etc was in the centre.

Why would you think this?

2 common things that are apparently wrong in a normal home setup

The centre is in front of the screen

The centre is different speaker to the l and r and is usually horizontally setup not vertical.

These are apparently mistakes and if you have all 3 speakers identical and all Inn the same plain it's supposed to be best for your front sound stage.

I would guess any weakness with the centre channel are a bit from the above or setup issues??

 

[ellisdj]

2 centres? Intruiging. Always thought the weakness in 5.1 etc was in the centre.

Why would you think this?

2 common things that are apparently wrong in a normal home setup

The centre is in front of the screen

The centre is different speaker to the l and r and is usually horizontally setup not vertical.

These are apparently mistakes and if you have all 3 speakers identical and all Inn the same plain it's supposed to be best for your front sound stage.

I would guess any weakness with the centre channel are a bit from the above or setup issues??

 

[Frank Harvey]

The centre is different speaker to the l and r and is usually horizontally setup not vertical.

These are apparently mistakes and if you have all 3 speakers identical and all Inn the same plain it's supposed to be best for your front sound stage.

Any set up I have, I buy another pair of the left/right speakers I use to use one as a centre. This ensures the same output capabilities, the same dispersion characteristics, and the same tonal balance and character as the left and right, producing a more consistent soundstage. I also follow this rule for myself with the surrounds. Of course, using the same speaker all round isn't always possible in many people's living rooms due to the size of some speakers, but is worth doing if at all possible.

I would guess any weakness with the centre channel are a bit from the above or setup issues??

Presuming the centre is part of the same range as the rest of the speakers (and of good design), set up would be the major factor.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Shame for those with good carefully setup systems wishing to upgrade to DTS-X etc. I believe my setup is as "correct" as the room allows - as alluded to, using a projector (maybe) using identical speakers makes sense. 3 sets giving a 6.1 setup practical.

My interest was how 2 centres could be employed.

 

[Frank Harvey]

My interest was how 2 centres could be employed.

There are benefits to using two centres, but new issues arise. Best using one.

 

[FunkyMonkey]

From previous posts it seems that the major benefit of Atmos is overhead sound, and to achieve that benefit you really need overhead speakers and a dedicated soundtrack.

The speakers I can do. But I can't imagine myself replacing my collection with Atmos. And I mostly watch Sky movies. Hence my point earlier about how well Dolby digital or indeed lossless Blu Ray tracks would sound if a receiver were to matrix them up to utilise Atmos configuration.
All in all the results would not be night and day as someone suggested.

In my current set up of carefully placed 7.1 speakers, the best sound for me is achieved with Audyssey and Neural 7.1 which serve to negate remaining room issues to give a sparkly, revealing sound thanks to Audyssey, and the Neural setting serving to give a hemispheric soundstage with well integrated channel transition.
It makes it hard to justify a £3k spend on a 11.2 receiver and 4 ceiling speakers

 

[bigboss]

From previous posts it seems that the major benefit of Atmos is overhead sound, and to achieve that benefit you really need overhead speakers and a dedicated soundtrack.

The speakers I can do. But I can't imagine myself replacing my collection with Atmos. And I mostly watch Sky movies. Hence my point earlier about how well Dolby digital or indeed lossless Blu Ray tracks would sound if a receiver were to matrix them up to utilise Atmos configuration.
All in all the results would not be night and day as someone suggested.

In my current set up of carefully placed 7.1 speakers, the best sound for me is achieved with Audyssey and Neural 7.1 which serve to negate remaining room issues to give a sparkly, revealing sound thanks to Audyssey, and the Neural setting serving to give a hemispheric soundstage with well integrated channel transition.
It makes it hard to justify a £3k spend on a 11.2 receiver and 4 ceiling speakers

The AV receivers can matrix 5.1 or 7.1 sound into Atmos presentation. With the right content, it was impressive but in others it was distracting. So I've switched that option off.

Yes, Atmos won't work with all films, but with the right film, it will be missed if you don't even have Atmos setup when you could.

 

[ellisdj]

I wrote a good post yesterday but my pc crashed before I saved it - this is some of it

I have been thinking about this debate in this thread - atmos definately adds to the sound presentation, I can say it does work really well upmixing non atmos films as well - I have experienced this.

However I watched a really good film a couple of weeks ago Wolf of Wall Street - I was laughing out loud a lot throughout the the film, thats rare for me - I really loved it, had me gripped for the 3 hours no problems

It was all about DeCaprio telling the story, music and the video - for this type of film would atmos have added to the film - I think not, in fact it could have detracted from the film if they put in overhead sounds for good measure as they most definately would have. There are loads of great movies like this so for this type of movie what will be better with a limited budget - a 5.2 for example with better speakers and kit or an atmos setup with lesser speakers and kit - No Brainer for this really.

But then we all love a good blockbuster where the benefits of Atmos make themselves more obvious, this is ultimately what most people have home cinema for - for the big bang type films.

I am in no doubt that atmos height channels will bring added sound experience to the movie - you can imagine how good it would have been if used in Avatar for example, I have experienced it as I say and I do really like it, and will look to add it at some point - depending on a few things

However again - I have also experienced to a Far Greater Degree what good bass brings to a movie, or how much can be lost from the experience without the right bass - in fact I would say its the single largest contributor to good sound in general but especially movies - the bass is what brings the film to life from a sound point of view and is the easiest thing to hear what seperates really good systems from average in my opinion. If you hear really good bass in a system you realise where a lot of system are totally lacking - this includes my own

This was my point before - so again there is the option with limited budget - whats better - spend more to have atmos and less on bass makers or more on good bass makers and no atmos. Its a no brainer for me again. I know you will get much more from having good bass than anything else you can do, and its even more important to have the right foundation for even more speakers

So this was my point earlier - you get your base sound quality from your from the front 3 speakers - this is what you will listen to the most and then the bass is what really brings the system to life - bass should be top of the list, not bottom as most people put it. In my opinion 1 sub is generally not enough for sub sattellite setups I think 2 minimum - 4 is more like it, even in a domestic setting.

I appreciate there is the quandary of having a room completely renovated so then it makes perfect sense to have atmos cabling and speakers installed, and probably then a big chunk of budget spent on them because they wont be changed in the future, you can upgrade subs at a later date. And decent subs can be had for a few hundred pounds - BK for example to get someone going.

Sorry point being - if you could never upgrade again then depending on how thin the buudget will get for adding atmos - I am sure there will be a point where it comes actually counter productive

 

[Frank Harvey]

From previous posts it seems that the major benefit of Atmos is overhead sound, and to achieve that benefit you really need overhead speakers and a dedicated soundtrack.

For those with a system that isn't performing 100%, adding Atmos speakers might help achieve a more cohesive soundfield, although I'm not one for recommending half measures - I suppose it's a bit like adding a turbo charger to a car - yes, it'll go faster, but it won't improve the handling, which is arguably more important - the fastest car isn't necessarily the one that wins the race.

The speakers I can do. But I can't imagine myself replacing my collection with Atmos. And I mostly watch Sky movies. Hence my point earlier about how well Dolby digital or indeed lossless Blu Ray tracks would sound if a receiver were to matrix them up to utilise Atmos configuration. All in all the results would not be night and day as someone suggested.

Right now, this is the main reason for buying into Atmos. It will partially improve the experience of 5.1/7.1 material, which should tide people over until there's a wider range of native Atmos material available. Given how long Atmos has been available, there really should be more choice, but that was partly hampered by some movie studios waiting for DTS:X. And now it might be a case of studios waiting for UHD discs...

In my current set up of carefully placed 7.1 speakers, the best sound for me is achieved with Audyssey and Neural 7.1 which serve to negate remaining room issues to give a sparkly, revealing sound thanks to Audyssey, and the Neural setting serving to give a hemispheric soundstage with well integrated channel transition. It makes it hard to justify a £3k spend on a 11.2 receiver and 4 ceiling speakers

Placement, as well as set up, is everything. A well set up 5.1 system is quite capable of reproducing a cohesive dome of sound, giving you a fully immersive experience. If like me, you have the rear speakers above head height, you may well be getting decent overhead effects anyway. Atmos will still make a difference in this instance, but the margin of improvement is smaller than if the rear speakers are placed at head height (which is the best position in an Atmos system). This is why I would recommend for those looking for a change, using their budget to improve choice aspects of their system, rather than just adding to it. Adding more speakers to a system doesn't improve sound quality, but replacing existing speaker/electronics with better ones does. This is the route I've just taken. In fact, if anything, I've reduced speaker quality and improved my processor, and the difference as far as music is concerned has been huge.

This is one reason why I would recommend to wait to let things settle down. I've been advising people to do this for the past few years with regards to the new sound formats and[/i] UHD. If you're going in-wall like BigBoss has, you have plenty of choice speaker wise, but if you're looking at more conventional in-room speakers, it is still early days, with only (to my mind) three manufacturers offering dedicated Atmos speakers. This will no doubt change over the next 6-12 months, although I suspect many manufacturers are waiting to see what sort of uptake Atmos attracts before jumping in to a dwindling market.

 

[FunkyMonkey]

Interesting. My rear speakers are 6feet high and maybe 2 to 4 feet behind the sofa. Then I have a set of speakers at ear level to the side and slightly behind owing to room geometry. My centre is about 10 feet in front of me with the fronts either side with a total of at least 2.5m separating the mains. I.e. left and right are at least 4 feet from the centre. This gives an expansive but spread out series of speakers.

Good test of cohesion are actually two tracks. One is DVD audio of get it freak on by Missy Elliot when the intro voice in Japanese pans around the room from around 3 o clock to 3 o clock clockwise. Then in a similar vein, there is walk of life I think from brothers in arms SACD by dire straits.

With both of these, the panning is silky smooth. Seamless.

Another test was Interstellar which even in Dolby digital wa room shaking, room filling, with effects in a dome soundscape.

That is to say, I have my doubts as to the benefits of Atmos. Only thing to do is to wait till Bristol show to see if I can be convinced

 

[Frank Harvey]

The only problem with Bristol is how the systems have been set up. Some manufacturers might (and did) set up their systems to exaggerate the Atmos effect, which is fine for those who are just getting into it because it is the latest thing, but not for those who are looking to hear Atmos at its best - you shouldn't be aware of any speakers. You're best visiting a good dealer for that, one who knows what they're doing with an AV system. You'd be surprised how many staff aren't necessarily into both music and movies - if they're not into movies, you can't guarantee how well they've set their system as it might not be something they deal with on a daily basis. And if you can find a member of staff with the same priorities as yourself, even better.

But yes, use the Bristol Show as a guide and take it from there. At least by then there will be more software choice, and maybe even better Atmos speaker choice.

 

[FunkyMonkey]

Bit obvious but I should go to a cinema with Dolby Atmos to compare a non Atmos film to an Atmos film. Being a family man, this could be an expensive trial!

 

[bigboss]

Bit obvious but I should go to a cinema with Dolby Atmos to compare a non Atmos film to an Atmos film. Being a family man, this could be an expensive trial!

I haven't compared Dolby Atmos in cinema vs at home. I think cinemas can have up to 128 speakers in Atmos configuration (although I'm sure most won't use even half that number).

 

[Frank Harvey]

A cinema will be a bit of a different experience anyway, but it might give you an idea of what Atmos is about. Hearing one at a local dealer will give you a much better idea as the room size will be far more similar.

 

[ellisdj]

Apart from David who I am sure will happily demo for people these are other good dem facilities that I have been to depending on where you live - all had atmos setups, all different types of setups as well so is a good mix there. These will likely convert withyou within about 20 minutes, and also likely get you spending money - not through selling to you, just from experiencing the systems - well worth a look

Jag Home Cinema

Kalibrate UK

Gecko

I am mentioning them in thanks for their time they gave me when demoing Projector / screens etc

 

[bigboss]

This is an interesting thread about Atmos.