Indeed, but you gave the impression you meant 3D was being rushed to market to beat its competitors.
The_Lhc
Well-known member
aliEnRIK:
I completely agree with TKratz
It IS being rushed out to beat its competitors
So what is the competitor to 3D then?
I saw a VT20 running some 3D last week, looked alright, no idea what crosstalk is (I can guess) or how I'd recognise it though, I didn't notice anything untoward, other than being able to see the active shutters flickering out of the corner of my eyes.
I completely agree with TKratz
It IS being rushed out to beat its competitors
So what is the competitor to 3D then?
I saw a VT20 running some 3D last week, looked alright, no idea what crosstalk is (I can guess) or how I'd recognise it though, I didn't notice anything untoward, other than being able to see the active shutters flickering out of the corner of my eyes.
the_lhc:aliEnRIK:
I completely agree with TKratz
It IS being rushed out to beat its competitors
So what is the competitor to 3D then?
I saw a VT20 running some 3D last week, looked alright, no idea what crosstalk is (I can guess) or how I'd recognise it though, I didn't notice anything untoward, other than being able to see the active shutters flickering out of the corner of my eyes.
Im lost as to why so many people are losing where TKratz is coming from here
If for example, Sony says its going to release a 3D tv (Just as an example) and theyve never been done before (And especially after AVATAR etc). All the other 'competitors' (panasonic etc) will try and get there first (or at least within a few months) so not to lose out
If theres only ONE manufacturers 3D tv out there, then theres NO competition is there?
And 'rushed out' in the sense that they havnt really perfected it yet. they just want it out on the market to make more money (obviously)
LCDs in particular have bad response times. I dont think ANY LCD will ever be able to run 3D without problems
I completely agree with TKratz
It IS being rushed out to beat its competitors
So what is the competitor to 3D then?
I saw a VT20 running some 3D last week, looked alright, no idea what crosstalk is (I can guess) or how I'd recognise it though, I didn't notice anything untoward, other than being able to see the active shutters flickering out of the corner of my eyes.
Im lost as to why so many people are losing where TKratz is coming from here
If for example, Sony says its going to release a 3D tv (Just as an example) and theyve never been done before (And especially after AVATAR etc). All the other 'competitors' (panasonic etc) will try and get there first (or at least within a few months) so not to lose out
If theres only ONE manufacturers 3D tv out there, then theres NO competition is there?
And 'rushed out' in the sense that they havnt really perfected it yet. they just want it out on the market to make more money (obviously)
LCDs in particular have bad response times. I dont think ANY LCD will ever be able to run 3D without problems
the_lhc:TKratz:
Andrew Everard: And FWIW,
Not sure about the FWIW part, For What It's Worth. HTH, HAND!
Thanks the _lhc
For some reason I keep forgetting these abbreviations...
Andrew Everard: And FWIW,
Not sure about the FWIW part, For What It's Worth. HTH, HAND!
Thanks the _lhc
For some reason I keep forgetting these abbreviations...
The_Lhc
Well-known member
aliEnRIK:the_lhc:aliEnRIK:
I completely agree with TKratz
It IS being rushed out to beat its competitors
So what is the competitor to 3D then?
I saw a VT20 running some 3D last week, looked alright, no idea what crosstalk is (I can guess) or how I'd recognise it though, I didn't notice anything untoward, other than being able to see the active shutters flickering out of the corner of my eyes.
Im lost as to why so many people are losing where TKratz is coming from here
If for example, Sony says its going to release a 3D tv (Just as an example) and theyve never been done before (And especially after AVATAR etc). All the other 'competitors' (panasonic etc) will try and get there first (or at least within a few months) so not to lose out
If theres only ONE manufacturers 3D tv out there, then theres NO competition is there?
I might believe that, if they were all implementing it differently (aside from the difference between active and passive systems but only LG are doing a passive TV, AIUI). But they aren't, it's a defined standard that they've all sat down together and worked out. The only difference I can see is that some manufacturers have swapped their eyes over (hence being able to use Panasonic's glasses on other makes of TV by turning them upside down), other than that, they're the same system.
It might be being rushed to market, but it's a very well coordinated rush from where I'm sitting.
I completely agree with TKratz
It IS being rushed out to beat its competitors
So what is the competitor to 3D then?
I saw a VT20 running some 3D last week, looked alright, no idea what crosstalk is (I can guess) or how I'd recognise it though, I didn't notice anything untoward, other than being able to see the active shutters flickering out of the corner of my eyes.
Im lost as to why so many people are losing where TKratz is coming from here
If for example, Sony says its going to release a 3D tv (Just as an example) and theyve never been done before (And especially after AVATAR etc). All the other 'competitors' (panasonic etc) will try and get there first (or at least within a few months) so not to lose out
If theres only ONE manufacturers 3D tv out there, then theres NO competition is there?
I might believe that, if they were all implementing it differently (aside from the difference between active and passive systems but only LG are doing a passive TV, AIUI). But they aren't, it's a defined standard that they've all sat down together and worked out. The only difference I can see is that some manufacturers have swapped their eyes over (hence being able to use Panasonic's glasses on other makes of TV by turning them upside down), other than that, they're the same system.
It might be being rushed to market, but it's a very well coordinated rush from where I'm sitting.
the_lhc: no idea what crosstalk is (I can guess) or how I'd recognise it though, I didn't notice anything untoward, other than being able to see the active shutters flickering out of the corner of my eyes.
Crosstalk in 3D
Could be one of two things so far as im aware
1 ~ (especially LCDs). Poor pixel response times. Meaning that a pixel is still trying to switch off, or to a different colour (especially a white pixel) when it should by now be showing the 2nd frame
2 ~ actual crosstalk, in that frames are being shown at such a high rate that information between the 2 frames becomes a little blurred (A little like a scart lead with no shielding, so that the red, green and blue cables arent as clean as they should be)
Crosstalk in 3D
Could be one of two things so far as im aware
1 ~ (especially LCDs). Poor pixel response times. Meaning that a pixel is still trying to switch off, or to a different colour (especially a white pixel) when it should by now be showing the 2nd frame
2 ~ actual crosstalk, in that frames are being shown at such a high rate that information between the 2 frames becomes a little blurred (A little like a scart lead with no shielding, so that the red, green and blue cables arent as clean as they should be)
The_Lhc
Well-known member
aliEnRIK:
the_lhc: no idea what crosstalk is (I can guess) or how I'd recognise it though, I didn't notice anything untoward, other than being able to see the active shutters flickering out of the corner of my eyes.
Crosstalk in 3D
Could be one of two things so far as im aware
1 ~ (especially LCDs). Poor pixel response times. Meaning that a pixel is still trying to switch off, or to a different colour (especially a white pixel) when it should by now be showing the 2nd frame
2 ~ actual crosstalk, in that frames are being shown at such a high rate that information between the 2 frames becomes a little blurred (A little like a scart lead with no shielding, so that the red, green and blue cables arent as clean as they should be)
Ok, but how would that actually manifest itself to the viewer?
the_lhc: no idea what crosstalk is (I can guess) or how I'd recognise it though, I didn't notice anything untoward, other than being able to see the active shutters flickering out of the corner of my eyes.
Crosstalk in 3D
Could be one of two things so far as im aware
1 ~ (especially LCDs). Poor pixel response times. Meaning that a pixel is still trying to switch off, or to a different colour (especially a white pixel) when it should by now be showing the 2nd frame
2 ~ actual crosstalk, in that frames are being shown at such a high rate that information between the 2 frames becomes a little blurred (A little like a scart lead with no shielding, so that the red, green and blue cables arent as clean as they should be)
Ok, but how would that actually manifest itself to the viewer?
Whilst there are some obvious limitations to the the tech currently it's also worth pointing out that these "rushed" TV sets are pretty impressive with the right material. Right material is quite key too - and one of the reasons I can take or leave movies in 3D. I'm more interested in the gaming angle.
In games the content lends itself far more to being in 3D and crucially the game producers have a lot of control over what is presented to the viewer and how. Sony have done research into not just how you can convert games, but how you ensure you make the experience comfortable to the viewer. I think this will be a big driver rather than movies.
In games the content lends itself far more to being in 3D and crucially the game producers have a lot of control over what is presented to the viewer and how. Sony have done research into not just how you can convert games, but how you ensure you make the experience comfortable to the viewer. I think this will be a big driver rather than movies.
the_lhc:It might be being rushed to market, but it's a very well coordinated rush from where I'm sitting.
Except when they all crossed the Release-the-TV finish line they all turned to each other and said "You did bring the content didn't you?"
Except when they all crossed the Release-the-TV finish line they all turned to each other and said "You did bring the content didn't you?"
the_lhc:
Ok, but how would that actually manifest itself to the viewer?
In example, when watching information for your left eye, your also seeing 'some' information designed for the right eye
Id imagine this will also bring on some serious headaches for some people over long term viewing
Ok, but how would that actually manifest itself to the viewer?
In example, when watching information for your left eye, your also seeing 'some' information designed for the right eye
Id imagine this will also bring on some serious headaches for some people over long term viewing
The_Lhc
Well-known member
aliEnRIK:
the_lhc:
Ok, but how would that actually manifest itself to the viewer?
In example, when watching information for your left eye, your also seeing 'some' information designed for the right eye
Yes I understood that much but what difference would that actually make to the image? Would the 3d effect collapse, do edges appear fuzzy and undefined or what?
the_lhc:
Ok, but how would that actually manifest itself to the viewer?
In example, when watching information for your left eye, your also seeing 'some' information designed for the right eye
Yes I understood that much but what difference would that actually make to the image? Would the 3d effect collapse, do edges appear fuzzy and undefined or what?
the_lhc: I saw a VT20 running some 3D last week, looked alright, no idea what crosstalk is (I can guess) or how I'd recognise it though, I didn't notice anything untoward, other than being able to see the active shutters flickering out of the corner of my eyes.
That is probably because VT20 do not suffer from crosstalk to any noticeable extent
I didn't see it either on the VT20, but try some of the LG and Samsung sets. That is a different story.
That is probably because VT20 do not suffer from crosstalk to any noticeable extent
I didn't see it either on the VT20, but try some of the LG and Samsung sets. That is a different story.
the_lhc:Ok, but how would that actually manifest itself to the viewer?
As someone else mentioned a kind of ghosting effect is apparent. It's really not that notable in a lot of content in all sets - particular situations can be more problematic. Comparison technical shots I've seen show the Panasonic set is much better due to plasma, with the Sony HX803 notably better than the current Samsung sets (not sure on the 9000). To balance this LCD/LED tech has an advantage with brightness as the glasses do block a significant amount of light.
As someone else mentioned a kind of ghosting effect is apparent. It's really not that notable in a lot of content in all sets - particular situations can be more problematic. Comparison technical shots I've seen show the Panasonic set is much better due to plasma, with the Sony HX803 notably better than the current Samsung sets (not sure on the 9000). To balance this LCD/LED tech has an advantage with brightness as the glasses do block a significant amount of light.
Quite an interesting debate so far! The bottomline is: 3D crosstalk exists and can be very annoying. Some TVs (usually plasmas) are better than others (usually LCDs) in reducing or eliminating 3D crosstalk.
I personally think 3D crosstalk should be prominently mentioned in all reviews of 3D TVs so that consumers can make an informed decision (imagine the disppointment of a buyer when noticing significant crosstalk after buying a £7000 TV!) & also for manufacturers to make a conscious effort to reduce it.
I personally think 3D crosstalk should be prominently mentioned in all reviews of 3D TVs so that consumers can make an informed decision (imagine the disppointment of a buyer when noticing significant crosstalk after buying a £7000 TV!) & also for manufacturers to make a conscious effort to reduce it.
DrDamn:To balance this LCD/LED tech has an advantage with brightness as the glasses do block a significant amount of light.
Except it can also create problems (The new sony ups the backlight to compensate but then shows backlight problems because of it)
Except it can also create problems (The new sony ups the backlight to compensate but then shows backlight problems because of it)
aliEnRIK:
Except it can also create problems (The new sony ups the backlight to compensate but then shows backlight problems because of it)
True - it's all swings and roundabouts, how important these particular points affect what you are going to use the set for and where you will use it.
EDITED BY MODS (AGAIN) - please do not discuss moderation
Except it can also create problems (The new sony ups the backlight to compensate but then shows backlight problems because of it)
True - it's all swings and roundabouts, how important these particular points affect what you are going to use the set for and where you will use it.
EDITED BY MODS (AGAIN) - please do not discuss moderation
I find Andrew's arrogant comment of Max being in the minority when it comes to questioning the unwaivering, non-bias of What Hifi reviews.
There are plenty of people out here who know that there is an agenda with many a 5 star award. One example (of many) NAD C325BEE amplifier:
1. Gets a lukewarm review
2. NAD's UK distribution changes from Lenbrook to Armour Electronics
3. Subsequentally all of a sudden Sevenoaks, Audio T etc Head Offices are respendent with C325BEE stock
4. WHF does a re-review quoting an upgrade (that NAD DENY) and the C325BEE GAINS A STAR.
WHF is a business and it has to keep circulation and advertising revenue in line to stay in business, not an easy task if you're still pushing the best gear that is either discontinued or only available via smaller independants!!
There are too many interested parties with stocks of the Samsungs for WHF to pan it. From a personal point of view I think the Samungs STRONGEST attribute is it's fantastic (by LED lit standards) 2D picture!! The 3D effect is mickey mouse at best and nothing more than a glorified version of an episode of Mr Benn at worst (flat looking people stood in front of equally flat backgrounds for those too young to remember Mr Benn!).
Commercially it makes no sense for them to put it up against the Kuro panels as that won't keep Mr Sevenoaks happy nor the consumer. Oh and don't get me started on Kuros, as good as they were, they were NOT the best plasmas out there.
Actually come to think of it don't get me started on LCD v LED lit v plasma v CRT! The amount of people i've seen trade-in/dump CRT TVs against some truely awful LCDs just because of fashion sickens me!!
From a consumer point of view you cannot complain, if you blindly lash out £k's of pounds on gear based upon a review in a commercial publication, without auditioning, that just highlights you total disregard for your own bank balance!!!
There are plenty of people out here who know that there is an agenda with many a 5 star award. One example (of many) NAD C325BEE amplifier:
1. Gets a lukewarm review
2. NAD's UK distribution changes from Lenbrook to Armour Electronics
3. Subsequentally all of a sudden Sevenoaks, Audio T etc Head Offices are respendent with C325BEE stock
4. WHF does a re-review quoting an upgrade (that NAD DENY) and the C325BEE GAINS A STAR.
WHF is a business and it has to keep circulation and advertising revenue in line to stay in business, not an easy task if you're still pushing the best gear that is either discontinued or only available via smaller independants!!
There are too many interested parties with stocks of the Samsungs for WHF to pan it. From a personal point of view I think the Samungs STRONGEST attribute is it's fantastic (by LED lit standards) 2D picture!! The 3D effect is mickey mouse at best and nothing more than a glorified version of an episode of Mr Benn at worst (flat looking people stood in front of equally flat backgrounds for those too young to remember Mr Benn!).
Commercially it makes no sense for them to put it up against the Kuro panels as that won't keep Mr Sevenoaks happy nor the consumer. Oh and don't get me started on Kuros, as good as they were, they were NOT the best plasmas out there.
Actually come to think of it don't get me started on LCD v LED lit v plasma v CRT! The amount of people i've seen trade-in/dump CRT TVs against some truely awful LCDs just because of fashion sickens me!!
From a consumer point of view you cannot complain, if you blindly lash out £k's of pounds on gear based upon a review in a commercial publication, without auditioning, that just highlights you total disregard for your own bank balance!!!
thelegendarymonch:There are plenty of people out here who know that there is an agenda with many a 5 star award.
Then many people out there 'know' incorrectly.
thelegendarymonch:One example (of many) NAD C325BEE amplifier:
1. Gets a lukewarm review
2. NAD's UK distribution changes from Lenbrook to Armour Electronics
3. Subsequentally all of a sudden Sevenoaks, Audio T etc Head Offices are respendent with C325BEE stock
4. WHF does a re-review quoting an upgrade (that NAD DENY) and the C325BEE GAINS A STAR.
1. Got a lukewarm review
2. NAD's distributor took it back, saying the sample we had was not to finished specification.
3. We received another sample, and re-reviewed it.
4. Nothing to do with change of distribution or retail availability. But that doesn't help the conspiracy theory, does it?
thelegendarymonch:There are too many interested parties with stocks of the Samsungs for WHF to pan it.
Rubbish, frankly.
thelegendarymonch:Commercially it makes no sense for them to put it up against the Kuro panels as that won't keep Mr Sevenoaks happy
More nonsense, I'm afraid. Quite apart from the fact that the Kuros are now long discontinued, if you think we'd allow the interests of a retailer to have any influence over our reviewing you are living in thelegendarycloudcuckooland.
Then many people out there 'know' incorrectly.
thelegendarymonch:One example (of many) NAD C325BEE amplifier:
1. Gets a lukewarm review
2. NAD's UK distribution changes from Lenbrook to Armour Electronics
3. Subsequentally all of a sudden Sevenoaks, Audio T etc Head Offices are respendent with C325BEE stock
4. WHF does a re-review quoting an upgrade (that NAD DENY) and the C325BEE GAINS A STAR.
1. Got a lukewarm review
2. NAD's distributor took it back, saying the sample we had was not to finished specification.
3. We received another sample, and re-reviewed it.
4. Nothing to do with change of distribution or retail availability. But that doesn't help the conspiracy theory, does it?
thelegendarymonch:There are too many interested parties with stocks of the Samsungs for WHF to pan it.
Rubbish, frankly.
thelegendarymonch:Commercially it makes no sense for them to put it up against the Kuro panels as that won't keep Mr Sevenoaks happy
More nonsense, I'm afraid. Quite apart from the fact that the Kuros are now long discontinued, if you think we'd allow the interests of a retailer to have any influence over our reviewing you are living in thelegendarycloudcuckooland.
And to puncture all this total nonsense re bias even further, i've just noticed who's advertising all over the site at the moment....Panasonic, Sharp, Samsung and Sony all on a single page; different ones at refresh. They're there because of the huge visitor numbers this website pulls in - simple as.
Oh, and the retail point is also nonsense - as the latest five-star review for a product you can only buy direct shows (incidentally, EB Acoustics don't advertise with us, either).
That follows on for several Awards (EB Acoustics; Clearer Audio to name but two) last year for direct-sell products that don't go near a dealer. See also five-star reviews for That Cable, etc etc etc.
Advertising and editorial is totally separate on WHF - always has been; always will be.
Oh, and the retail point is also nonsense - as the latest five-star review for a product you can only buy direct shows (incidentally, EB Acoustics don't advertise with us, either).
That follows on for several Awards (EB Acoustics; Clearer Audio to name but two) last year for direct-sell products that don't go near a dealer. See also five-star reviews for That Cable, etc etc etc.
Advertising and editorial is totally separate on WHF - always has been; always will be.
The_Lhc
Well-known member
thelegendarymonch:Oh and don't get me started on Kuros, as good as they were, they were NOT the best plasmas out there.
Really? what was then, because I've not seen anything that bettered them?
Really? what was then, because I've not seen anything that bettered them?
thelegendarymonch:Oh and don't get me started on Kuros, as good as they were, they were NOT the best plasmas out there.
Interesting post up until you said that. Your so very wrong about that. But sure, im intrigued as to which plasma was better too?
Interesting post up until you said that. Your so very wrong about that. But sure, im intrigued as to which plasma was better too?
aliEnRIK:thelegendarymonch:Oh and don't get me started on Kuros, as good as they were, they were NOT the best plasmas out there.
Interesting post up until you said that. Your so very wrong about that. But sure, im intrigued as to which plasma was better too?
Depends if your taking their proformance into account using the pound for pound basis, for example my Samsung PS50P96 was a 5star product as was the Pioneer LX508 at the time, both were Full HD etc but My Samsung was £1200 and the Pioner £2800 so that made the Pioneer roughly 133% more expensive but was the proformance of the Pioneer 133% better than my Samsung?? Nope at best IMHO about 5%. So again IMHO the extra outlay was not worth the limited gain so I purchased the Samsung as IMHO it was a better TV on a pound for pound basis.
Interesting post up until you said that. Your so very wrong about that. But sure, im intrigued as to which plasma was better too?
Depends if your taking their proformance into account using the pound for pound basis, for example my Samsung PS50P96 was a 5star product as was the Pioneer LX508 at the time, both were Full HD etc but My Samsung was £1200 and the Pioner £2800 so that made the Pioneer roughly 133% more expensive but was the proformance of the Pioneer 133% better than my Samsung?? Nope at best IMHO about 5%. So again IMHO the extra outlay was not worth the limited gain so I purchased the Samsung as IMHO it was a better TV on a pound for pound basis.
Agree with you, although Samsung PS50P96 suffered with below average SD picture quality.
It really depends on person to person, on what they perceive performance per pound to be. By those standards, a £699 Technika 40-inch LED (LCD) TV is better than a £2199 Sony 40-inch LED (LCD) TV because the Sony isn't worth more than 300% extra outlay! There are people who believe that!
It really depends on person to person, on what they perceive performance per pound to be. By those standards, a £699 Technika 40-inch LED (LCD) TV is better than a £2199 Sony 40-inch LED (LCD) TV because the Sony isn't worth more than 300% extra outlay! There are people who believe that!
Good thread guys. Personally i think that if the Pioneer Kuro was a fantastic TV and possibly the best on the market when it was available then that would have been totally immaterial to me, because at the time that i purchased my Samsung Plasma my budget was £700 , so on that basis all the research i done was on TVs of that price .I knew that there were better TVs on the market, but if you excuse the phrase, i wouldnt test drive a porsche if if my budget was for a Ford . Im now at the other extreme having recently purchased a 3D TV for £2000 knowing full well i could get almost as good a picture quality by spending £1200 . It all boils down to what you want and what you can afford .
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