Samsung F8500 plasma anticipation thread

[strapped for cash]

For anyone interested, here's a letter from HDTV Shootout organiser Robert Zohn, detailing the results of this year's event. It made some sense to post the results in this thread, since the winner will perhaps surprise a few readers. The decision was far from unanimous, though, with a split between calibrators and enthusiasts more generally. Read on...




Here are the 2013 Flat Panel Shootout Evaluation final results based on the votes of the attendees and our panel of experts. This year it's been a difficult task to declare a winner. Here's why:

The results came out so close that it is difficult to award one winner. The ZT60 won the popular vote in important categories, black and overall pq, but the F8500 has the highest scores overall and also won in important categories, like contrast ratio and day modes. In the past nine years it has always been very clear who won our Flat Panel Shootout event.

The attendees liked the higher light output of the F8500, so when tabulating the ballots the F8500 is the winner. They saw the F8500 as even sharper, which I would assume is also because of the brighter image in low and high ambient light conditions. Many participants told me the F8500 whites looked cleaner, brighter and in their opinion, whiter.

So the public has spoken and we therefore crown Samsung’s F8500 series PDP the new "King of HDTV" for 2013.

We also recognize and congratulate all of the development engineers at Samsung for making the most significant advancement in PDP technology this year.

Please also take note that the panel of experts selected the VT60/ZT60 as their personal choice. But even their choice was only a slight preference. As DeWayne put it to me.... “To me and just for example, if the VT60 is a 10 the F8500 is a 9 as I don’t care about panel brightness above 30fL”

However, we strongly recommend all consumers to use the same logic that the three expert panelists explained during our closing Q&A: end users should make their buying decision based on viewing habits. The three top contenders are all so very close this year that I don't see a clear winner and these three panels deserve our top recommendation equally.

In fact, all of the 2013 displays in our event this year are exceptional and have made significant advancements in picture quality, build quality and design. So my sincerest congratulations to Sony, Panasonic and Samsung for stepping up the game on PDP and LED display technology advancements.

Very respectfully submitted,

Robert Zohn

 

[bigboss]

I'm not sure how they can compare the Samsung F8500 with Panasonic ZT60. Which screen did they use? 51-inch or 64-inch? Bigger screens always look more attractive. Maybe they should have compared the Samsung with similar sized VT65.

I will probably go to the Walsall shootout where they're comparing calibrated Kuro 600M, Samsung F8500 & Panasonic ZT60 (although I realise that the organiser is TPS who only sells Panasonic, creating a conflict of interest). Will report back.

 

[bigboss]

The fact remains though; these TVs run close in performance. You're only going to have 1 TV in your room. So I don't think any of these TVs will make you less happy.

 

[strapped for cash]

I will probably go to the Walsall shootout where they're comparing calibrated Kuro 600M, Samsung F8500 & Panasonic ZT60 (although I realise that the organiser is TPS who only sells Panasonic, creating a conflict of interest). Will report back.

I'm going to the Leicester event next weekend. Likewise, I'll let you know what I think.

 

[Son_of_SJ]

For anyone interested, here's a letter from HDTV Shootout organiser Robert Zohn, detailing the results of this year's event. It made some sense to post the results in this thread, since the winner will perhaps surprise a few readers. The decision was far from unanimous, though, with a split between calibrators and enthusiasts more generally. Read on...

Here are the 2013 Flat Panel Shootout Evaluation final results based on the votes of the attendees and our panel of experts. This year it's been a difficult task to declare a winner. Here's why:

The results came out so close that it is difficult to award one winner. The ZT60 won the popular vote in important categories, black and overall pq, but the F8500 has the highest scores overall and also won in important categories, like contrast ratio and day modes. In the past nine years it has always been very clear who won our Flat Panel Shootout event.

The attendees liked the higher light output of the F8500, so when tabulating the ballots the F8500 is the winner. They saw the F8500 as even sharper, which I would assume is also because of the brighter image in low and high ambient light conditions. Many participants told me the F8500 whites looked cleaner, brighter and in their opinion, whiter.

So the public has spoken and we therefore crown Samsung’s F8500 series PDP the new "King of HDTV" for 2013.

(More .....)

I'm not sure how they can compare the Samsung F8500 with Panasonic ZT60. Which screen did they use? 51-inch or 64-inch? Bigger screens always look more attractive. Maybe they should have compared the Samsung with similar sized VT65.

I will probably go to the Walsall shootout where they're comparing calibrated Kuro 600M, Samsung F8500 & Panasonic ZT60 (although I realise that the organiser is TPS who only sells Panasonic, creating a conflict of interest). Will report back.

Many thanks to strapped for cash for mentioning the shootout between the Samsung F8500, the Panasonic ZT60 and the Panasonic VT60. Bigboss asks about screen sizes. I think that this is the link to the American site that did the shootout

http://www.hometheater.com/content/value-electronics-hdtv-shootout-and-then-there-were-three

And if you go to the third (HDTV scores) page, it does mention the various sizes used - Pansonic TC-P65ZT60, Samsung PN64F8500 and Panasonic TC-P65VT60, so pretty much identical sizes. I found it very useful to read all three pages, but I was extremely surprised to read (in the middle of page 2, just above the photographs of the three calibrators and the host Mr Zohn) that contrary to what I've been reading in nearly every other review of the 2013 Panasonic plasmas, or of the 2012 and 2011 Panasonic plasmas for that matter, that "Afterward, I stood a couple of feet from the sets and examined the screensaver from the Oppo Blu-ray player used in the tests; those familiar with the Oppo players know they use a bright white Oppo logo dancing on a dark black background. From that alone, it was clear we still have a ways to go to get a plasma that's equal to the Kuro, at least on black levels." They don't specify the Kuro model number, but do say that it was a last generation monitor. Well, what a shock! Kuro still rules on black level alone, according to this shootout. I was fully expecting the top-end 2013 Panasonics to have deeper black levels, but it seems not. I'd be very interested to hear what bigboss and anyone else who attends the Wallsall event in 11 days thinks. (I'm still hoping to get a Panasonic 65VT65 later this year though!)

 

[strapped for cash]

I'd be very interested to hear what bigboss and anyone else who attends the Wallsall event in 11 days thinks. (I'm still hoping to get a Panasonic 65VT65 later this year though!)

I'm going to the Leicester event on Sunday, so I'll report back.

I spent half an hour with the F8500 today and I was very impressed. It beats the latest Panasonics in some areas, but can't quite match the VT65 for black level.

Subjectively assessed, I found the F8500 more capable in terms of motion. (Panasonics resolve more detail during camera pans, but there's a fluidity to the Samsung's 50Hz images that arguably all Panasonics lack).

There's also a precision to the F8500's images that's appealing. The ZT65 bests the F8500 in terms of black level, but the differences between the two seemed very small, admittedly under shop lighting. (I switched both TV's out of Dynamic mode and into THX/Movie mode respectively).

I left the store wondering if I'm a Samsung man after all. If you rarely watch TV in a dark room, there's a very strong case for buying the Samsung.

 

[Son_of_SJ]

I'm going to the Leicester event on Sunday, so I'll report back.

I spent half an hour with the F8500 today and I was very impressed. It beats the latest Panasonics in some areas, but can't quite match the VT65 for black level.

(More ....)

I left the store wondering if I'm a Samsung man after all. If you rarely watch TV in a dark room, there's a very strong case for buying the Samsung.

No, no, no don't confuse me, man! I'm supposed to be set on the Panasonic 65VT65, not the Samsung PS64F8500! Among other things, I don't like the funny Samsung stand, especially as I'll be wanting to place a centre speaker. Yet, I'm very interested in what you and bigboss think after the Leicester and Walsall shows. I certainly want a new TV with better black level than my existing Samsung PS64D8000 from two generations ago. But the new machine may do that.

But very importantly before I forget strapped for cash, could you or bigboss please check that the Samsung F8500 doesn't have brightness pops, that is, when the background black level changes abruptly? I keep reading in reviews of Samsung plasmas that the reviewer saw no evidence of brightness pops. That may be because they''ve not been using the correct material that would show the brightness pops! If you or bigboss have the Blu-Ray of Blade Runner, the fault, if latent, will become quite obvious. I have the Director's Cut version of the disc. and very close to the start, from about 30 seconds elapsed to two minutes elapsed, the names of the writers, directors and actors fade in and out during the opening credits. In a darkened room, the brightness pops as the names fade in and out are very obvious. Only the Samsung of my plasmas does that, even my much-maligned LG in the kitchen does not. So if you could check that, I would be very grateful. I might be able to overlook basic black levels not quite as deep as Panasonic's, or that dratted bulging out stand, but if the F8500 has brightness pops that would be a deal-breaker for me.

 

[strapped for cash]

But very importantly before I forget strapped for cash, could you or bigboss please check that the Samsung F8500 doesn't have brightness pops, that is, when the background black level changes abruptly?

Like past generations of Samsung plasma, the F8500 suffers from brightness pops, and according to many owners a faint horizontal band toward the top of the screen. The brightness pops are reportedly very mild and infrequent. I was looking specifically for this issue today, but I didn't see any pops during the 20-30 minutes I spent watching. (This isn't the same as saying the problem doesn't exist.)

On the other side of the equation, 50Hz motion is still a minor problem on latest generation Panasonics, with some dynamic false contouring. There are a few very minor uniformity issues, too, though nothing even approaching the problems I experienced with last year's sets.

I think these are all extremely minor issues that will only disturb the most unforgiving of videophiles. If pushed, I'm still not sure I can pick a winner this year. Perhaps I'll have a clearer sense after the event on Sunday.

 

[Son_of_SJ]

I think these are all extremely minor issues that will only disturb the most unforgiving of videophiles. If pushed, I'm still not sure I can pick a winner this year. Perhaps I'll have a clearer sense after the event on Sunday.

But perhaps you might be just as undecided after Sunday!

 

[bigboss]

Yes, I've got Blade Runner disc. Can you remind me to take it with me on 31st please? Will check it for you.

 

[Son_of_SJ]

Thank you, bb. I will remind you! If the room is fairly dark (doesn't have to be pitch black) the brightness pops (if possible) will be obvious.

 

[strapped for cash]

I think these are all extremely minor issues that will only disturb the most unforgiving of videophiles. If pushed, I'm still not sure I can pick a winner this year. Perhaps I'll have a clearer sense after the event on Sunday.

But perhaps you might be just as undecided after Sunday!

Maybe, but since I have a 50VT65 already, I'll likely say job done and leave it at that.

I'd need to leave the event convinced the Samsung is a clear winner before making any change. If it's a tie I'll stick with what I've got.

 

[Deleted member 2457]

I'd be very interested to hear what bigboss and anyone else who attends the Wallsall event in 11 days thinks. (I'm still hoping to get a Panasonic 65VT65 later this year though!)

I'm going to the Leicester event on Sunday, so I'll report back.

I spent half an hour with the F8500 today and I was very impressed. It beats the latest Panasonics in some areas, but can't quite match the VT65 for black level.

Subjectively assessed, I found the F8500 more capable in terms of motion. (Panasonics resolve more detail during camera pans, but there's a fluidity to the Samsung's 50Hz images that arguably all Panasonics lack).

There's also a precision to the F8500's images that's appealing. The ZT65 bests the F8500 in terms of black level, but the differences between the two seemed very small, admittedly under shop lighting. (I switched both TV's out of Dynamic mode and into THX/Movie mode respectively).

I left the store wondering if I'm a Samsung man after all. If you rarely watch TV in a dark room, there's a very strong case for buying the Samsung.

I will have to try the Samsung in those modes.

 

[strapped for cash]

I will have to try the Samsung in those modes.

Hi Gel,

The Samsung doesn't have a THX mode (I was referring to the Panasonic there), only a Movie preset.

Switching the Samsung to Movie mode and turning motion processing options off made a lot of difference. It really is an excellent TV and Samsung has made quite a leap forward this year, as evidenced by the HDTV Shootout result.

 

[strapped for cash]

Quick update after the Leicester event.

Without going into great detail, the VT65 looks the best option this year. Differences between the ZT65 and VT65 are negligible. In my view, a 65" VT makes more sense than a 60" ZT. I think most people there agreed.

The Samsung F8500 gives the Panasonics a good run for their money, producing a sharper and cleaner image, but the difference in black level is apparent and the Panasonics edge it.

If you own a 9th generation Pioneer or KRP, you won't notice much of an upgrade. The Pioneers still beat the Panasonics for black level, though the Panasonics have a cleaner image and drag up more detail.

If I owned a 9th generation Kuro or KRP, I'd keep it, unless I wanted a bigger screen. The Panasonics offer a few advantages, but are still behind the Pioneers in other areas.

Just for Son_of_SJ -- I couldn't choose which material we watched. We watched some of The Dark Knight Rises, and I didn't see any brightness pops. I'm sure they're evident with some material, as widely reported.

Finally, I got to see LG's 84" 4K LED in action. I didn't like it so much; and 1080p content upscaled to 4K looked like, well, 1080p content on a 1080p screen. In other words, the upscaling process works well, but with so little native 4K content around, I couldn't see the point.

 

[Son_of_SJ]

Thank you very much for the quick report, strapped for cash! You've provided enough detail to anwer my main questions. From the specifications, I suspected that it might be very close between the ZT65 and the VT65. You were also in a position to comment on the black levels, which is a fairly big point with me for any new telly that I might buy, so the 65VT65 is the best that I can do.

If you own a 9th generation Pioneer or KRP, you won't notice much of an upgrade. The Pioneers still beat the Panasonics for black level, though the Panasonics have a cleaner image and drag up more detail.

If I owned a 9th generation Kuro or KRP, I'd keep it, unless I wanted a bigger screen. The Panasonics offer a few advantages, but are still behind the Pioneers in other areas.

Interesting that the last generation Kuro still rules for absolute black levels, and are still competitive with the new Panasonics overall, four or five years after the last Kuros first went on sale. I never thought that I would ditch mine any time soon, so this confirms it. That makes the comment on AVForums ZT review "Time to put those Kuros on eBay guys" sound like not such wise advice. One person on the AVForums actually sold his faultess Kuro 5090 in anticipation of the new Panasonic plasmas. Bet he now wishes he hadn't (unless he wanted a bigger screen).

Thanks again for the report, strapped!

 

[mr malarky]

Quick update after the Leicester event.

Differences between the ZT65 and VT65 are negligible. In my view, a 65" VT makes more sense than a 60" ZT...

...The Panasonics offer a few advantages, but are still behind the Pioneers in other areas..

Evening strapped, can you expand on the above a little?

Am an interested party as you know, but still no delivery date on the ZT65. Had previously ruled out a 65" but if the differences between the ZT and the VT are that marginal then there's always room for thought.

Keeping in mind there's still no burning reason to change the 5090 other than the "nice to have" of a larger screen size (am sitting here as I type thinking 'if its not going to be better, why am I changing??').

 

[Son_of_SJ]

If I owned a 9th generation Kuro or KRP, I'd keep it, unless I wanted a bigger screen. The Panasonics offer a few advantages, but are still behind the Pioneers in other areas.

So when Panasonic advertised the ZT65 as "Beyond the reference", with that reference being to the ninth generation Pioneer Kuro, it now seems that that was not entirely true!

 

[Alantiggger]

Do people maybe get too 'cuaght-up' when it comes to black levels ?

I have my old Pana in my bedroom (px70, old lounge tv) ) and use it at times for pc and the very odd bluray watch... blacks look brilliant tbh.

The tv downstairs in the lounge is the Sammy in my sig... blacks look brilliant..... what's with all the talk about black levels then ? People don't get a certain tv because some gaget show that it has a slight advantage on its scale do they ? IF this IS the case then it must be time to ....

 

[strapped for cash]

Evening strapped, can you expand on the above a little?

Am an interested party as you know, but still no delivery date on the ZT65. Had previously ruled out a 65" but if the differences between the ZT and the VT are that marginal then there's always room for thought.

Keeping in mind there's still no burning reason to change the 5090 other than the "nice to have" of a larger screen size (am sitting here as I type thinking 'if its not going to be better, why am I changing??').

Whether the VT65 is "better" than the 5090 is quite subjective. If you believe, as many do, that black level is the only (or at least most important) aspect of picture quality, then it's difficult to look past Pioneer. The 6090 on display arguably just shaded it, but we weren't watching in a completely dark room. I didn't get to see the KRP, as it wasn't set up yet and I had to leave (family do). However, since the KRPs could produce blacker blacks than the ninth gen Kuros, I assume the argument for keeping the TV if you're a lucky owner becomes even stronger.

Both VT65 and ZT65 produced a cleaner and more detailed image than the 6090; but overall the differences between all calibrated plasmas on display were relatively small. Personally, I wouldn't trade a Pioneer in for a new Panasonic or Samsung because you'd be getting more of the same rather than a noticeable leap in quality. If you want a larger screen, however, and I understand entirely that many do, the Panasonics start to look attractive. So does the Samsung F8500. What it's missing in terms of overall black level (which to be honest isn't much) is made up for by a cleaner picture than both the Pioneers and Panasonics.

The ZT65 looked marginally more detailed and stable to than the VT65 under very close scrutiny, but the differences were so marginal that I'd struggle to justify the extra money.

 

[strapped for cash]

So when Panasonic advertised the ZT65 as "Beyond the reference", with that reference being to the ninth generation Pioneer Kuro, it now seems that that was not entirely true!

Again, it depends how you want to look at it. If we're only talking about black level, I agree that the ZT isn't "beyond reference." Indeed, the numbers told us this before the TVs were lined up side-by-side.

Taking all aspects of image quality into account, it's incredibly difficult to pick between the Pioneers, the latest Panasonics, and the Samsung F8500. Each has their unique selling point and I wouldn't argue with anyone picking one TV over the others.

In short, the only way to decide is to see the TVs in action yourself and decide what's most important to you. The competition has never been closer.

 

[Son_of_SJ]

Taking all aspects of image quality into account, it's incredibly difficult to pick between the Pioneers, the latest Panasonics, and the Samsung F8500. Each has their unique selling point and I wouldn't argue with anyone picking one TV over the others.

In short, the only way to decide is to see the TVs in action yourself and decide what's most important to you. The competition has never been closer.

You are a wise man! I'll wait until I see the latest Panasonics and the 64" Samsung F8500, but at present I'm inclining towards a 65VT65. Mind you, I was in John Lewis yesterday and saw the 51" Samsung F8500. It was showing only a demonstation feed, but I have to say, even under shop lights the picture did look good, really good. It's just a shame about the stupid stand!

 

[Deleted member 2457]

Quick update after the Leicester event.

Without going into great detail, the VT65 looks the best option this year. Differences between the ZT65 and VT65 are negligible. In my view, a 65" VT makes more sense than a 60" ZT. I think most people there agreed.

The Samsung F8500 gives the Panasonics a good run for their money, producing a sharper and cleaner image, but the difference in black level is apparent and the Panasonics edge it.

If you own a 9th generation Pioneer or KRP, you won't notice much of an upgrade. The Pioneers still beat the Panasonics for black level, though the Panasonics have a cleaner image and drag up more detail.

If I owned a 9th generation Kuro or KRP, I'd keep it, unless I wanted a bigger screen. The Panasonics offer a few advantages, but are still behind the Pioneers in other areas.

Just for Son_of_SJ -- I couldn't choose which material we watched. We watched some of The Dark Knight Rises, and I didn't see any brightness pops. I'm sure they're evident with some material, as widely reported.

Finally, I got to see LG's 84" 4K LED in action. I didn't like it so much; and 1080p content upscaled to 4K looked like, well, 1080p content on a 1080p screen. In other words, the upscaling process works well, but with so little native 4K content around, I couldn't see the point.

Sounds like you had a good day, nice one.

I agree Panasonic's have more detail and a cleaner image, I found with some Blu-rays this made their blacks look better too. With the level and how it looks I am talking about two different things here. I found some the Pioneer had the edge in picture quality and some my GT50 had the edge.

How did they all perform in the brightness department? Cheers. I guess they were all calibrated too?

 

[mr malarky]

Interesting review of the ZT here (apologies if its been posted before, only just come across it), which includes references to the VT:

http://reviews.cnet.com/flat-panel-tvs/panasonic-tc-p60zt60/4505-6482_7-35567247.html

In short, they reckon the only discernible difference is that the ZT maintains its contrast better in bright rooms, and that in a dark room there's nothing between them.

Does that chime with anyone's experience who went along yesterday?

 

[strapped for cash]

I was in John Lewis yesterday and saw the 51" Samsung F8500. It was showing only a demonstation feed, but I have to say, even under shop lights the picture did look good, really good. It's just a shame about the stupid stand!

I like the stand! Though I understand certain objections. Unless you're wall mounting, you need an AV rack at least as wide as the F8500.