Room Acoustics - Needs addressing, help wanted

[krish123]

Good points guys,

im going to start off with what i have outlined and see how i get on.

Is it ok to use the poly diffusers on the side walls? its just i may not have the room to put them on the rear walls as not all of the rear wall is freed up.

Maybe between the speakers could be an option, how high do they need to be placed as again there is restriction on the front wall for this.

 

[lindsayt]

Krish, why don't you buy some open fronted book / CD / vinyl shelves / storage?

Cheaper than specialised acoustic panels.

Do pretty much the same job acoustically.

Look better - in my opinion - as they don't scream "I'm a weird hi-fi obsessional geek!".

Serve the dual purpose of having somewhere to place you and your family's bric a brac.

It's a win, win, win, win proposition.

 

[ellisdj]

I would advise you to ignore book shelves advice, despite rumour they do not act as proper acoustic treatment. They actually do little to nothing

A book shelf even if you randonly assigned the books to be in and out in terms of placement you would need all hard plastic books as the paper variety would more than likely absorb high freq more than it reflected them - this is the opposite of what you are trying to achieve. This is nonsense advice and proved clearly in this video.

All sound enthusiasts should watch the real traps videos there is a lot to learn on room acoustics, including how much treatment you actually need in a room to make a real difference. Another great source is Acoustic Fields you tube videos - the chap there has made lots of useful short easy to understand videos

Back to the op - I have a fair amount of experience with room treatments installed - including some testing and employment of diffusion.

Diffusion is the killer product that elevates things but it must be used properly - in the right place and with the correct distance from the listening position. Its also personal pref.

However I would start with your absorption panels - install them first and get a handle on things. Installing them on the side walls and rear wall directly behind the listening position should help tighten / focus the sound greatly and improve imaging especially off to the sides of the speakers. Madonna Like a Payer has lots of off to the side sounds - drummer off to the right, full choir off to the left etc.

You should get improved bass as well but dont expect miracles from 2 bass traps which is essentially what you have bought so far. I think its normally advised to work on bass first which might be why 2 soffit traps were recommended to you. If you have corners free tri traps work well and are quite room friendly, you dont really notice them but soffits and monsters are more effective to a lower range. Use these if you want max performance for your money and can loose the space.

I would then test with the diffusion panels to see what you like, you can use tape folded over to initially place them up on walls but it wont hold for long, adhesive velcro works better but can pull paint when you peel it off. Or just rest them on anything you can they are very light - the cardboard boxes they come in spring to mind

You will see some people using diffusion directly to the sides of speakers - real traps and gik advice use absorption directly to the sides early reflection then use diffusion

I feel on the ceiling is a good place to use diffusion because think about it - the ceiling is usually a very bare space normally all flat surface, compared to the floor and walls where there is furniture etc that will break up sound waves to a degree.

Duffusion turns the reflection from a negative to a positive - the brain can detect where a sound reflection comes from so a reflection off a bare wall tells the brain the wall is there. A diffused sound reflection tricks the brain as it cannot locate the source - thats how diffusion can make a room sound larger - this is my understanding of the theory basics.

Video showing what I am getting at

However another great place to test will be directly in front of your monster panels I would definately try that or just to the sides of them. I really liked this as its a best of both worlds scenario - a lot of studios use diffusion right across the back wall - however this is difficult at home with limited space because its probably a spot you want absoprtion also.

Also front wall as mentioned in between the speakers lots of people use diffusion here - me included.

 

[lindsayt]

That Ethan Winer video does not proove anything about how good bookshelves are for the acoustics of a domestic room with a hi-fi in it. That video was not a scientific piece of research.

It really is a load of old nonsense that you need dedicated difusers to transform the acoustics of your room. All you need is a decent amount of furniture.

 

[lindsayt]

Ethan Winer is co-owner of Realtraps, a leading manufacturer of acoustic treatment products

Source: Ethan Winer's website.

It's just him coming out with marketing nonsense when he says that bookshelves aren't suitable for improving room acoustics.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

He got a big snooker table in the room so no doubt the sounds bouncing of that . Furniture does help a lot as well as use of rugs and a nise big sofa too And thick curtains . I have the same speakers and mine are sounding OK in my room but I have it full of furniture but I understand everyone's room is different .

edited .. Also Dali say that the minimum distance from the back wall is 20 cm with this speakers and I know you have your at 25cm but I reckon this speakers are made for home cinema use as well as music so you may get away with moving them closer to the wall as a ( experiment ) and this speakers do not have to be toed in as well .

 

[ellisdj]

That Ethan Winer video does not proove anything about how good bookshelves are for the acoustics of a domestic room with a hi-fi in it. That video was not a scientific piece of research.

It really is a load of old nonsense that you need dedicated difusers to transform the acoustics of your room. All you need is a decent amount of furniture.

Now this in nonsense here. No amount of furniture will improve bass response or decay times. Pictures on the wall, tapestry bookshelves don't work either.

It's all measurable and even without measuring it's all clearly audible.

If you hear sound in a treated room then listen in a room full of furniture the latter still sounds like an empty room. I have heard this time and time again.

If a book shelf worked as effective as a mathematically calculated diffuser in Ethan winners video the guitar would sound the same next to both. It quite clearly doesn't.

If all you needed was some furniture and bookshelves in a room for it to be a good sounding room that would be amazing but this couldn't be any further from the truth.

 

[ellisdj]

If you want a more scientific video put this into you tube

HEARING IS BELIEVING:
THE ULTIMATE SMALL MIXING & MASTERING ROOM

I can't do a link on my phone I will sort this post out tomorrow.

 

[lindsayt]

That Ethan Winer video does not proove anything about how good bookshelves are for the acoustics of a domestic room with a hi-fi in it. That video was not a scientific piece of research.

It really is a load of old nonsense that you need dedicated difusers to transform the acoustics of your room. All you need is a decent amount of furniture.

Now this in nonsense here. No amount of furniture will improve bass response or decay times. Pictures on the wall, tapestry bookshelves don't work either.

It's all measurable and even without measuring it's all clearly audible...

In the interests of openness and integrity, do you have any sort of trade affiliation with any sort of hi-fi or room treatment company?

I'm sorry, but my experience shows that furniture does indeed improve the sound, especially the bass.

This has been shown when I've been decorating. No carpet. No curtains. No wallpaper. No furniture. Made my hi-fi sound very echoey. As if it were being played in a cave or an empty room. A room with bathlike acoustics.

Finish decorating and put the carpet and furniture back in - including some large Ikea Expedits stuffed full of vinyl - and my system sounded cleaner and less echoey.

Anyone can repeat the same experiment. It won't cost them anything, apart from some time taking all their furniture out of their listening room and putting it back in.

As always in hi-fi, my suggestion is to try what I say and then report back here what you think when you tried the same thing.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

I think a outlet misunderstanding rather then mistaken information. Carpets & furniture clearly effect room acoustics as any decorator will know! Bass is the tricky one and fuurnishings will do little - hence bass traps etc.

 

[krish123]

I would advise you to ignore book shelves advice, despite rumour they do not act as proper acoustic treatment. They actually do little to nothing

A book shelf even if you randonly assigned the books to be in and out in terms of placement you would need all hard plastic books as the paper variety would more than likely absorb high freq more than it reflected them - this is the opposite of what you are trying to achieve. This is nonsense advice and proved clearly in this video.

All sound enthusiasts should watch the real traps videos there is a lot to learn on room acoustics, including how much treatment you actually need in a room to make a real difference. Another great source is Acoustic Fields you tube videos - the chap there has made lots of useful short easy to understand videos

Back to the op - I have a fair amount of experience with room treatments installed - including some testing and employment of diffusion.

Diffusion is the killer product that elevates things but it must be used properly - in the right place and with the correct distance from the listening position. Its also personal pref.

However I would start with your absorption panels - install them first and get a handle on things. Installing them on the side walls and rear wall directly behind the listening position should help tighten / focus the sound greatly and improve imaging especially off to the sides of the speakers. Madonna Like a Payer has lots of off to the side sounds - drummer off to the right, full choir off to the left etc.

You should get improved bass as well but dont expect miracles from 2 bass traps which is essentially what you have bought so far. I think its normally advised to work on bass first which might be why 2 soffit traps were recommended to you. If you have corners free tri traps work well and are quite room friendly, you dont really notice them but soffits and monsters are more effective to a lower range. Use these if you want max performance for your money and can loose the space.

I would then test with the diffusion panels to see what you like, you can use tape folded over to initially place them up on walls but it wont hold for long, adhesive velcro works better but can pull paint when you peel it off. Or just rest them on anything you can they are very light - the cardboard boxes they come in spring to mind

You will see some people using diffusion directly to the sides of speakers - real traps and gik advice use absorption directly to the sides early reflection then use diffusion

I feel on the ceiling is a good place to use diffusion because think about it - the ceiling is usually a very bare space normally all flat surface, compared to the floor and walls where there is furniture etc that will break up sound waves to a degree.

Duffusion turns the reflection from a negative to a positive - the brain can detect where a sound reflection comes from so a reflection off a bare wall tells the brain the wall is there. A diffused sound reflection tricks the brain as it cannot locate the source - thats how diffusion can make a room sound larger - this is my understanding of the theory basics.

Video showing what I am getting at

However another great place to test will be directly in front of your monster panels I would definately try that or just to the sides of them. I really liked this as its a best of both worlds scenario - a lot of studios use diffusion right across the back wall - however this is difficult at home with limited space because its probably a spot you want absoprtion also.

Also front wall as mentioned in between the speakers lots of people use diffusion here - me included.

hi mate,

your totally spot on with the above, i want to do this properly so want to use products that are designed to do the job properly.

I do hear what people are saying about furniture etc it can help a bit but it wont completely solve all your issues.

i think from what your saying is add each panel and test the effect its having?

So first il put up the side wall panels then test the sound, then add the monster bass traps at the rear wall and then test again.

finally il add the diffusers and see what effect this has.

Iv just done some measurements in my room and i can place the diffusers in the front corners of the room which will aid low end absorption. i think this will be a better place to put them as opposed to the rear side walls as there is greater distance from my listening position to allow the waves diffused to properly form (i know this is quite important).

i think exactly what you describe above is what my speakers are suffering from currently the lack of imaging due to many reflections, and the bass could defintely be more extended and defined so the monster bass traps should help with that.

Then of course the diffusers should help delocalise the sound as at the moment you kind of tell where the sound is coming from its as 'airy' as it could be, i know full well its not my components as they are all top notch, but as you say good equipment doesnt equal good sound, hence im addressing this long standing issue now.

Cant wait to get it all up and finally hear the sound i should be getting!

 

[lindsayt]

Robin, bass is the area that was most improved in going from my empty room to my fully furnished room. And all done without using ugly bass traps.

I should also add that my room - furniture - acoustics experiments have been done with speakers that generally co-operate with the room instead of fighting against it.

 

[lindsayt]

Krish, can you provide us with any photos of your room, and can you tell us what components you have in your system?

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Robin, bass is the area that was most improved in going from my empty room to my fully furnished room. And all done without using ugly bass traps.

I should also add that my room - furniture - acoustics experiments have been done with speakers that generally co-operate with the room instead of fighting against it.

I can only think that the laws of physics are in some way broken in your room but your opinion is as valuable as mine.

However, speakers which co-operate in a room rather than fighting against it is gobbeldygook in my rule book. I'm sure we all enjoy our sound systems which is the only thing that matters.

 

[ellisdj]

I have no affiliation to anyone or any company - I bought all my panels from GIK because you know what your getting in terms of build quality and perfomance statictics - the panels work brilliantly, much better than DIY equivalents I have these first, their service is excellent and they have been good to me and I think I have been good to them also. I just say it how it is, if I was affiliated to GIK I wouldnt be recommending people watch Real Traps videos.

The laws of physics are broken in no room - the places where bass builds up is not where people put sofas and a sofa is generally mostly hollow wood shells which of course does nothing. The best you will get from average furnishings is high/ high mid freq absoprtion - but if you have a leather sofa forget it - the leather is reflective and causes its own comb filtering / sound problems.

If you actually do some room measurements and see just how much treatment it takes to actually make a signifcant difference you would realise that the difference the furniture has made is not significant. There is a reason room treatments are big and thick its because they simply have to be.

The op is on the right track - doing it properly - furnished rooms dont sound like treated rooms, once you hear a treated room all other rooms sound wrong and off in one way or many ways. People get used to hearing sound in these types of rooms and think that their furnishings are making the rooms good rooms. You only have to walk around any hifi show to hear that this is completely the opposite of the truth.

Here is a short video on room size and acoustics - this highlights the size of room that doesnt need treatment - its a huge room, all other smaller rooms need it

I need to point the op in the right direction here.

The only bass absorbers you have bought are the Monsters - these are a great test tool - you can try them in the front and rear corners of the room and on the back wall. Hear the benefit from one placement, then the next and so on - then imagine the cumulative benefit - then think full floor to ceiling corners + Back wall acummulative benefit - this is why its so addictive, nothing improves your system sound more .

There is no point trying the versifusors in the corners of the room - these are high freq diffusors only. A good place to try them is right behind your head a few feet away if posisble but even right behind your head you will start to hear the effects and how powerful.

When you realise the effect imagine what the full Q7D diffusors do - they work into the mid range region so elevate the sound for the mid range as well.

Good time for you ahead, lot of testing and work to do, but its worth it

Dont forget to try the versifusors infront of the monsters on the back wall as well - works great

 

[ellisdj]

Sorry to clarify I didn't mean to leave them right behind your head just test them there to get a grip on what they do

 

[RobinKidderminster]

The only thing I can contradict ellisdj on is his lack of understanding of physics - clearly the aforementioned room where furnishings helps the bass significantly is partly into a fifth dimension where the laws are entirely different. (Reference Star Trek S5 E55).

Must go - my speakers are fighting the room again.

 

[ellisdj]

The only thing I can contradict ellisdj on is his lack of understanding of physics - clearly the aforementioned room where furnishings helps the bass significantly is partly into a fifth dimension where the laws are entirely different. (Reference Star Trek S5 E55).

Must go - my speakers are fighting the room again.

I bet that's funny if you have seen star trek sorry I haven't.

Enough from me I am hugely passionate about this topic let's see how the op gets on.
If he wants to put up a few pics we can see what he has done and might be able to help if needed . Best of luck

 

[krish123]

Hi Guys,

Iv had some more thought on the placement of my treatment based on some more research, let me know what you guys think.

Use the monster bass traps at the front corners of the room (1 in each corner)

Use the 4x 242 acoustic panels on the side wall to treat 1st and 2nd reflection points.

Finally use the polydiffusers on the rear wall as i heard diffusion is best used on the front or rear walls.

Iv added in 2 extra polyfusers on my order so i now have 4 in total so would take up a good amount of space of my rear wall.

What do you guys think.

 

[lindsayt]

Robin, bass is the area that was most improved in going from my empty room to my fully furnished room. And all done without using ugly bass traps.

I should also add that my room - furniture - acoustics experiments have been done with speakers that generally co-operate with the room instead of fighting against it.

I can only think that the laws of physics are in some way broken in your room but your opinion is as valuable as mine.

However, speakers which co-operate in a room rather than fighting against it is gobbeldygook in my rule book. I'm sure we all enjoy our sound systems which is the only thing that matters.

Thank-you for your patronising posts.

My opinion is more valuable to me than your opinion, because mine is based on my experience. Your opinion is more valuable to you because it is based on your experience. It's not my fault if your experience does not include getting rooms to sound good enough simply by furnishing them properly, as well as having the right speakers and the right placement of the important things within that room.

Let's take an example of 2 speakers. One is a ported speaker, designed in an anechoic chamber. The frequency response is relatively flat in an anechoic chamber. The other is a corner horn. It was designed to work in the corner of a room. The ported speaker has to be placed away from the walls of the room to sound best. The corner horn has to be placed within one or two inches of the corner of the room to sound best. It's not gobbeldygook at all to say that the corner horn is co-operating with the room more than the ported speaker in this example. It's a simple common sense statement of fact.

 

[ellisdj]

Corner loading a speaker is to boost bass response which is fine.
However what about all the other corners of the room lindsayt what do you do about them?

What about all the other reflective surfaces in the room

You may make a room sound good to you buy it doesn't mean it's a good sounding room

Have you measured the freq response, rt60 waterfall / decay to know for sure. I doubt it because if you did it would likely change your opinion on the room being good. It's normally the most sobering thing an audio enthusiast can do

 

[krish123]

right guys placed my order today with GIk acoustics! Iv gone for the following:

4x 242 acoustic panels

2x monster bass trap panels

4x polyfusers

im really looking forward to getting the panels up and experimenting and really hope they do the trick.

Iv spent a lot of money on my kit and hope this last purchase will let the kit shine.

Im confident though after learning alot about acoustics and the science behind it, its surely got to make a big difference!

Should recieve the panels late next week so il keep you guys updated.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

right guys placed my order today with GIk acoustics! Iv gone for the following:

4x 242 acoustic panels

2x monster bass trap panels

4x polyfusers

im really looking forward to getting the panels up and experimenting and really hope they do the trick.

Iv spent a lot of money on my kit and hope this last purchase will let the kit shine.

Im confident though after learning alot about acoustics and the science behind it, its surely got to make a big difference!

Should recieve the panels late next week so il keep you guys updated.

should be good when you get that little lot mate and I will be interested in your findings ones your sorted it all out . Is it really expensive as I would be interested in what the costs are to do something right like you are .

 

[krish123]

Hi bud,

well it's not cheap that lot cost me £1074!

But that said the products are well made and are aesthetically pleasing.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Hi bud,

well it's not cheap that lot cost me £1074!

But that said the products are well made and are aesthetically pleasing.

I will give you heads up on this speaker cables I just brought for my opticon 8s and yes I was unsure if it be worth the extra money but I just brought some audioquest type 33 soiled copper core speaker cable it's a big improvement over the atles cable I was using the sound is much more cleaner and sharp the bass is more defined then before and the sound stage is even more open I am not kidding well worth £270 . But you will get the people on here who do not believe and all cables are the same not with the audioquest it's not it's different it's the first time I have used solid core cable before and I would not put you wrong there is a big difference and worth getting.