Progress of AV Receiver Sound Quality

[kinda]

Hello,

Looking for some advice / experience around this. I've asked a similar question but maybe in a more confusing way and didn't get any response.

Does sound quality move on much with AV amps from year to year, considering both films and music? Could I expect for example a £700 amp from 3 years ago to be beaten by a £4 - 500 amp now?

I see conflicting opinions, with statements like this year's £450 amps are as good as last year's £1000 amps, but then people who have 'upgraded' to more recent amps from a more expensive older once being disappointed.

Would really appreciate any thoughts or experience of upgrades. I urgently need to make some decisions around an offer, (won't go into the details), and also set a demoing scope so I'd be really grateful for any advice.

 

[Chewy]

Good question. I guess the biggest development in AV amps are the features they have.

For example a £500 amp may be able to process your video a lot better than the 3 year old £700 amp, will be able to accept HDMI (the older one may not), will be able to decode HD surround formats etc etc.

Whether its core amplification and DAC components are better than the older machine, I would have thought so given that tech gets cheaper as time goes on and higher end components filter down into cheaper machines over time.

Whether a newer amp will produce a better sound than the old machine is completely up for debate.

I know you don't want to disclose which amps you are looking at, but you may find it beneficial as folks on this forum will be able to give you their personal experiences of both.

I would have thought you firstly need to decide if the older mahcine does everything you need it to, and if it does, base your final decision on an audition of both.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm having a simular argument (mostly with my self) whether I would gain enough from a Pioneer £900 AV receiver over my existing brilliant music soundtrack (only good with Movies) Arcam AVR280.

Features like Networking etc. have gained vastly but I would not use them enough.

Let me know if you get any conclusions

 

[Big Aura]

my view is, unless there's a new technology (3D, HD Audio, better upscaling) you're probably better off with last year's model). Case in point, you can get a Denon 2310 for the same price as a 1911...

Although if it's brand-new tech, the first year's model to feature that technology will probably be well-surpassed by the next generation (i.e. a year 1 HD audio amp for £700 will probably not be better than a £400 amp released three years later).

 

[markyd]

This is a really good question and one that I think everyone faces when upgrading almost any component in thier system.

I rarely buy new because I feel most of the new tech first generation inovations are not as significant as the previous years discounts. Discounts which can be easily found with a bit of net surfing and can be significant.

A case point being my recent AV amp upgrade from a 10 year old model. SQ improvements were not massive, but I got a very good deal and the features I required.

The exception was (and the reason for the amp upgrade) so I could use the latest technology included on the Sony S570 blu-ray . Basically I had to upgrade the amp to get the full benefit of the Blu-ray (i.e. HD - audio) . Personally, I would not have upgraded the amp if I didn't want that exact blu-ray.

For me, in this example, the technology advancement justified the upgrade. Perhaps you really want internet radio, or 3D compatibility or 9.1 or whatever, but IMHO if it ain't broke, and you don't want new features - you will probably have to spend a lot on the amp to get any noticable SQ improvements. The recent Big question where the panel couldnt tell much difference between a budget and high-end AV amp demonstrated this perfectly.

 

[tlspuds]

I'm new to the world of AV amps and after a few years of watching and reading many reviews, jumped when the Denon AVR-2310 came down to £450 quid (from its original 750-800). I can't praise it highly enough with both movie and music playback and don't believe this level of quality was available at anywhere near this price until the last year or two. I'd read loads about BANG! for your bucks amps for years now and only recently do they appear have to become more refined and 'musical' - and unless I'm much mistaken, every movie has music in them and not just sound effects.

I've done a speaker update at the same time so not 100% sure if its all down to the Denon, but in 'pure direct' 2-Channel audio, it gives my old hifi only amp a bloody good run for its money.

 

[kinda]

Hello,

Thanks for all the replies. I'm feeling encouraged to an extent.

Just to make clear this isn't a chosen upgrade really. My amp was about £700 RRP in 2007, (I've had it about 2 years 4 months and didn't pay full RRP), from a brand known for sound quality especially with music. After a recent free out of warranty fix another problems has developed, and they've offered me the chance to just let them scrap it, and give me £300.

I've considered it a fair bit, and to be honest it's a good offer, especially given what they could have done around my issues. However, I was happy with the sound and wasn't planning to upgrade just yet, so I do need to think about what it will cost me on top of the £300 to get similar sound quality. not really bothered about 3D but better HDMI switching would be a bonus, plus onboard HD decoding.

I'm going into a dealer to talk about the options, terms, and so on, on Saturday but don't know if I'll have access to last year's discounted models. I guess just before fully agreeing, demoing and stuff, I wanted to get a feel. At the time of purchase I felt that this amp had much better subtlety and detail than well regarded £400 ish options, though this seems to be exactly the recent area of improvement at the lower end going by reviews and comments so that's good, as is the big question perceived little difference between budget / mid-range.

I'd hope I could be looking at something like the new Yamaha 667, Onkyo 608, or maybe 767 for similar quality with films and music, with the option to spend a bit more for improvements, with maybe Denon or Marantz then also in the frame. Obviously might get an improvement for less if I can buy last year's models. It's reassuring that the Denon 2310 seems to equal the older KI signature stereo amp.

Markyd, are you able to tell us what old amp you moved from, and which one to?

Thanks again for the input. Things do seem to have moved on in quality at a price point hopefully but I know when I demod my current amp it trounced the well regarded £400-ish amps of the time.

 

[kinda]

Oh, also to say yes, I agree that music is a very important part of films, and have never really understood how an amp can be rated poor for music but good for films.

It's one of the reasons I've always thought instead of spending money on both a stereo amp and AV amp spend the combined or maybe a little more to get an AV amp that has musical quality, which should also enhance film watching. I can only see it making sensxe not too if music was very much the higher priority.

Anyway, bit of a different discussion.

From various comments I'm feeling happier that maybe I can get a similar sound quality to that I have now by looking at the current amps that are a couple of hundred less, (still interested to hear what amp you went from / to though markyd). And I forgot to say current amp is Marantz SR6001.

I vary on what I think about the offer. On the one hand strictly speaking Marantz aren't bound to do anything as it's all (just) out of warranty. But on the other just out of warranty issues shouldn't really happen and the initial PSU fault or (free) repair may have caused the ongoing issues.

It's been a bit vague via the dealer, but they seem to be saying let's not find out, the current fault isn't simple to diagnose, we'll all be better off if we give you this money and you get a new amp. As long as my outlay to get the same quality isn't massive it's good and I get a new amp with newer features. If I need to add £400 or more then there's a nagging doubt that the fix route might have been better, as I wasn't desperate to upgrade for features, but it's hard to say not knowing what the problem is.

I'll let you know what my thoughts are after some discussions and demos, and reveal if I think amps have really have come on in the last few years.

Thanks for the feedback and any more much appreciated.

 

[Frank Harvey]

kinda:I see conflicting opinions, with statements like this year's £450 amps are as good as last year's £1000 amps, but then people who have 'upgraded' to more recent amps from a more expensive older once being disappointed.

I'm not sure I'd say that about any current AV receivers.

 

[grdunn123]

kinda:
Hello,

Looking for some advice / experience around this. I've asked a similar question but maybe in a more confusing way and didn't get any response.

Does sound quality move on much with AV amps from year to year, considering both films and music? Could I expect for example a £700 amp from 3 years ago to be beaten by a £4 - 500 amp now?

I see conflicting opinions, with statements like this year's £450 amps are as good as last year's £1000 amps, but then people who have 'upgraded' to more recent amps from a more expensive older once being disappointed.

Would really appreciate any thoughts or experience of upgrades. I urgently need to make some decisions around an offer, (won't go into the details), and also set a demoing scope so I'd be really grateful for any advice.

Is this years Ford Mondeo better than last years model?? Probably some slight difference in trim but worth an extra Grand?? Probably not. Unless you are moving to a new 3D receiver or one which has the necessary complement of HDMI ins/outs then not much changes in a year except fit and finish.

 

[kinda]

Thanks for all the info. Yes I was treating the comment that today's £450 were as good as last year's £1000 with a pinch of salt. When I last demod the SR6001 was basically last years model against the 605 I think and it pasted it.

Over a few years I'm not sure though.

Dave as a dealer who I think has seen a bit of kit including Marantz, what are your honest thoughts on which oif this year's or last year's amps from Yamaha, Onkyo, Denon, Marantz, or any other match the SR6001 purely for sound? Also to keep in mind I am interested in subtlety and musicality rather than just big bangs.

If you or anyone else has some good pointers on the above it would be much appreciated.

 

[markyd]

Hi kinda,

I went from a Sony STR-930 (class leader in its day @ £500) to a Sony 2400es. Dont get me wrong, it does sound better, but I never expected it to be night and day. I looked at the Denon 2310 (and also considered the Marantz 6004) , but at £500 it was twice the bargain basement £250 I paid at RS for the 2400 and it didn't justify the premium for me. I have to say it was the build quality as opposed to the sound quality that put me off the Denon that made me go with the far more solid-feeling Sony.

Originally I was after an Arcam 350 which occasionally pop up on ebay and I was going to get a Panasonic DB-85 blu-ray and use the on board decoding and multichannel audio out for HD audio. I was so impressed with the network features of the new Sony blu-ray like wireless video streaming from my laptop and love film/iplayer, that it sealed the deal. Blu-ray reproduction and DVD upscaling are also superb. The forthcoming Sony 760 replacement did not appear to have multichannel analogue outs so I scrapped the Arcam idea - but if it did I would have persued that route.

You cant not love a bargain - and in the end I got the 570 and the 2400 for nearly £100 less than a heavily discounted 2310 so it was very budget friendly in these tight times. I'm VERY happy with my new purchaces and know they were my best option, but each to thier own.

Incidently I think £300 good will for you old amp is a very generous offer. You can make it go far - if you want! There do seem to be some superb new amps available at the moment - especially at the sub £500 level, but if I were you as you obviously like the sound of the Marantz I would put the £300 towards a 6004 - but pay no more than £600 - ideally sub-£500...

Happy hunting

 

[kinda]

Cheers markyd.

Essentially you're saying in 10 years sound quality at the same price point had moved on slightly. It's not making me feel that I can get the quality of the SR6001 now by going for anything less than around £700 RRP.

Yes, I've decided it's a good deal, and good of Marantz with it out of warranty, also given they've already done one free out of warranty fix. Yes, if their product had held up I'd be fine, with no outlay to make, but given it has, it's a good offer.

Best case scenario would have been a free or cheap fix, but worst case ongoing issues, expensive fix, or prohibitively expensive fix, costing me a lot of money and inconvenience. With this offer I get a middle ground of an expected fair bit of cost, but a new amp with new features, and guarantee. And Marantz get to not spend a load on investigating a problem for a nominal fee.

Again, thanks for all the feedback. And if anyone does have a feel for what recent amps match the SR6001 I'd be interested to hear. The obvious move may be to go for an SR600x.

 

[kinda]

Hello,

Just wanted to post an update on this and my findings so far after the first spot of demoing using an Arcam I think CD37 and A38 amp to try out music

This was with a pair of KEF 6005s and a PV1, to try and simulate the Tannoy Arena I have but which the shop don't stock. (When I demod speakers a while back KEF 5005 sats plus PV1 was nearest I heard to the Tannoy Arena I thought but they didn't have the 5005s only 6005s). Music played was pretty mixed.

First up was the new Pioneer VSX 920 (£500). Some good detail and musicality but the sound seemed hollow at times and the lower frequencies were not solid or controlled that well sometimes, often lacking imnpact. So, some issues which I was expecting at £4 - 500.

Next Denon 1911 (£450). Much more impressed; detail was there but the solidity and control of the bass was much better. I liked this and had no issues. I thought it was pretty much as good as the SR6001, which I was surprised at.

Wanted to try Yamahas, but in the £4 - 500 price range the 565 was all they had. No good really. Bass far too boomy and uncontrolled. No impact.

Wondered about a step up from the 1911 and tried the discounted Yamaha RXV 3900 (a big step up in provce) which I was promised would deliver fantastic stereo. Now, I'd been excited to hear the higher quality Yamaha amps, and it was within budget, just, though from display which I wasn't sure about.

The sound was very easy and fluid, no boomy bass, and I thought the details were brought out slightly more than on the Denon, with maybe a little more texture to voices. This was a different 'softer' sound. With the Yamaha it seemed as if you could put your hands into the sound, whereas with the Denon it was more a thick 'wall' of sound, (don't know which is best but I like the wall!).

For more or less 3 times the price for the Yamaha, to me, and with the speakers used, the gains weren't enough to justify the outlay. I was pretty disappointed in the gains to be honest. It was a different sound but not immediately better to me.

So, in terms of sound it seems Denon for me. Wasn't using the DACs in the amps so I'll be trying those out next time, and also trying out some films, in which case the talents of the Yamaha may make themselves felt more.

I'd like to try out the Denon 2311 / 3311 against the 1911 to see what gains they bring in sound quality, but the shop don't demo them. Wondered if anyone has any comparative experience?

Also, I can't seem to confirm any build materials for these amps. I thought the face plate was metal, but I've seen comments they might be plastic. Can anyone confirm?

I'll bring back more news after next Saturday's demoing, but it does seem in terms of sound quality the £450 Denon might be on a par with the £700 SR6001 from 3 years ago to my ears.