Power Cables

[jase fox]

Cyril Mason:jase fox:Cyril Mason:
jase fox:

But to the other half there isnt any alternatives im afraid, as to her there isnt any difference, but yet she trys to convince me that a certain hob cooks vegetables better etc so when i say "a cookers a cooker" she says "a cables a cable" so we agree to disagree, mind you theres nothing new there..... ha

Your other half is very wise.

What with? "certain hobs that can cook better? Im sure you dont agree with that one...

Ah but I do.

Stir frying works far better on a gas hob equipped with a proper wok burner than it does on a relatively hopeless electric one but replacing a mains cable will do nothing for reproduction.

And heres a whole new thread in the waiting !?

One thing to add to this Cyril, we both dont do stir fry...

 

[Anonymous]

The differences perceived in What Hifi magazine May round-up, are not described as being subtle. So they should be measurable on test equipment, they should be noticeable on blind testing to connivince the "some remaining skeptics" with something other than the opinion of What Hifi experts.

If you believe they might improve sound quality get them on satisfaction guaranteed refund and try doing many blind tests, if the round-up descriptions are accurate you should be easily able to hear the improvement and prove beyond doubt at least to your satisfaction that it is money well spent.

"differences are night and day"

"glaringly obvious"

"the results are remarkable"

"levels of detail, dynamics and clarity of sound are improved upon tenfold" and for video "a serious boost in resolution and cleanliness"

After all these statements are not marketing hype they are from a critical review, you can trust.

 

[Anonymous]

knightout:
The differences perceived in What Hifi magazine May round-up, are not described as being subtle. So they should be measurable on test equipment, they should be noticeable on blind testing to connivince the "some remaining skeptics" with something other than the opinion of What Hifi experts.

If you believe they might improve sound quality get them on satisfaction guaranteed refund and try doing many blind tests, if the round-up descriptions are accurate you should be easily able to hear the improvement and prove beyond doubt at least to your satisfaction that it is money well spent.

"differences are night and day"

"glaringly obvious"

"the results are remarkable"

"levels of detail, dynamics and clarity of sound are improved upon tenfold" and for video "a serious boost in resolution and cleanliness"

After all these statements are not marketing hype they are from a critical review, you can trust.

And there is the problem in a nutshell. Even well respected organs get it wrong.

 

[Anonymous]

They don't give up, do they?

Look it's simple, if you enjoy your music and what you play it on I'm happy for you both.

But stop telling the people who have found musical benefits that they are wrong when they have done Mods/ bought accessories and you haven't.

I don't hear cries of disappointment and grudges they have been duped from the many that have bought better accessories.

It is an essential part of fine tuning your system to get the best out of it and integrate the music to the room. The support of a good dealer is always helpful in these cases when they are prepared to loan out to try.

It's got tiresome, if there was a filter button I would be using it!

 

[aliEnRIK]

I COMPLETELY agree with you there Trev. I dont like people TELLING me im imagining everything and theres really no need for it

 

[professorhat]

Cyril Mason:Even well respected organs get it wrong.

Look what happened to Richard Hammond...ÿ

 

[harveymt]

Wow, that all went off a little bit!

So, after all that, which one should I get?

 

[professorhat]

Why not give Darren at Clearer Audio a call (phone number and email address is on their website, just click "About Us")? He's very helpful and will advise you on which he thinks is the best, or, if he's not sure, just arrange to get both delivered and you can choose and then send the one you don't want back (or both if neither prove to be of benefit).

Saves a lot of faffing on here (as you've probably guessed by now!).

BTW - speak from experience, got both the Silver-line and Copper-line Alpha. Sent the Silver-line back as didn't think it warranted the extra. Got a full refund, including postage, no problems - just keep the packaging!ÿ

 

[Anonymous]

Not going to enter the fray here, but we can easily get our basic facts in order. Resistivity of copper is 16.8 nano-ohm-meters while that if Silver is 15.87. Resistance of 12 AW Gauge conductor is 0.0052 ohms per meter for copper and 0.0049 for silver. For 16 gauge the numbers are 0.013 and 0.012 ohms. So to be clear, the resistance difference is quite small (5%) and easily compensated with even a minor changes in gauge. The discussion may have been making more headway when it looked toward the points of connection as indeed, the contact resistance between termination and terminal or plug and recepticle can easily dominate with rough or even mildly corroded surfaces. RF shielding is also, of course, another reasonable place to look for explanations if one were so inclined. Beyond that, we would definitely be looking for rather exotic explanations of why silver would be better ... or we could try it for ourselves and then fork over the cash or not as we choose.

 

[Anonymous]

clearer_audio:harveymt:The Clearer Audio ones seem to get good write ups on here. Is there much difference between the Copper and Copper Alpha in terms of performance per pound ie is the Copper Line worth the extra £60 over the Alpha?

Hello harveymt,

There are two critical areas with power cable performance and that is in improved power transfer (improving the performance of power supplies) and shielding (reducing both noise pick up which is then transferred to the component and interactions with other nearby cables such as analogue interconnects).

In comparison to the Copper-line Alpha the main differences with the Copper-line are the use of larger gauge higher-purity conductors, a more advanced shielding system and better connections. The cable also receives a longer burning in period as standard. The result is significantly better performance.

We do have a lot of customers use both cables on Panasonic TVs to good effect. Some of the newer generation Panasonic TVs do have narrow access for the IEC connector which can sometimes cause a problem.

As has been pointed out we offer a 60 Day Money Back Guarantee so you could audition either or both cables without risk.

Hope this helps.

Kind regards,

Darren

I thought Darren (as always) gave helpful info on his products.
There are several makes/types of Mains leads on the market.
Improvements on the RFI by shielding, removing (by weaving cable, clamps etc).
Better conductivity, use of various types of materials which have an effect on the sonic signature.
Superior connections with a better fit, contacts, fuses.
Silver cables certainly have a different sound from cooper ones.

Whilst manufacturers could have research papers done, at great expense on there products, I don't think the Audiophiles that buy would appreciate having to pay more.

If you look at electrical components you will see wide product ranges where research development has been done on each range. But the manufacturer has a world wide market of hundreds of thousands if not millions of units. Not the odd 1000 of Audio quality power leads sold in the UK.

 

[aliEnRIK]

ted_canuck:Not going to enter the fray here, but we can easily get our basic facts in order. Resistivity of copper is 16.8 nano-ohm-meters while that if Silver is 15.87. Resistance of 12 AW Gauge conductor is 0.0052 ohms per meter for copper and 0.0049 for silver. For 16 gauge the numbers are 0.013 and 0.012 ohms. So to be clear, the resistance difference is quite small (5%) and easily compensated with even a minor changes in gauge. The discussion may have been making more headway when it looked toward the points of connection as indeed, the contact resistance between termination and terminal or plug and recepticle can easily dominate with rough or even mildly corroded surfaces. RF shielding is also, of course, another reasonable place to look for explanations if one were so inclined. Beyond that, we would definitely be looking for rather exotic explanations of why silver would be better ... or we could try it for ourselves and then fork over the cash or not as we choose.

Dont forget the fact that NO wire is 100% pure silver or 100% pure copper. The copper or silver 'alloy' can make a bit of a difference in measurements

Also, no metal is without faults which will also effect measurement.

 

[Anonymous]

As someone who has been enthusiastic in the past about HiFi. I became disillusioned when any form of technical analysis was ditched in favour of individual perception. I lost faith in reviews. It was good when these two worked in tandem.

Example..I remember an amp suffering from sibilance..the reviewer easily measured this on an oscilloscope and it had crossover distortion.. it all made sense and informed the reader.

I'm afraid that the mains cable 'debate' is beyond me. For instance I know for a fact that it is beyond the cababilities of humans to detect an improvement in sound (or picture) due to a microscopic improvement in voltage drop due to a better made 'kettle lead'

In laymans terms it's like saying if a mosquito collides with your house at 1MPH you would feel the impact from your sofa...ridiculous eh?

Those who know and understand the science behind this and how power supplies are designed and operate will never convince those who have this misplaced belief. It seems like a sort of religion if you will, and that makes me a little sad as it reflects poorly on humans and how easliy they can be misled and effectively brainwashed.

But hey, carry on as you want .. but what I really object to is authoratitive claims in a 'well respected' uk magazine, which in reality are insulting the reader. I for one will not buy another copy of that magazine, but I take no comfort that these sort of claims are continuing to tens of thousands of readers. It's simply not the truth.

As the great Douglas Adams said..you can make an argument and convince yourself that black is white..and then get run over on a zebra crossing.

 

[aliEnRIK]

Oraclegod:
As someone who has been enthusiastic in the past about HiFi. I became disillusioned when any form of technical analysis was ditched in favour of individual perception. I lost faith in reviews. It was good when these two worked in tandem.

Example..I remember an amp suffering from sibilance..the reviewer easily measured this on an oscilloscope and it had crossover distortion.. it all made sense and informed the reader.

I'm afraid that the mains cable 'debate' is beyond me. For instance I know for a fact that it is beyond the cababilities of humans to detect an improvement in sound (or picture) due to a microscopic improvement in voltage drop due to a better made 'kettle lead'

In laymans terms it's like saying if a mosquito collides with your house at 1MPH you would feel the impact from your sofa...ridiculous eh?

Those who know and understand the science behind this and how power supplies are designed and operate will never convince those who have this misplaced belief. It seems like a sort of religion if you will, and that makes me a little sad as it reflects poorly on humans and how easliy they can be misled and effectively brainwashed.

But hey, carry on as you want .. but what I really object to is authoratitive claims in a 'well respected' uk magazine, which in reality are insulting the reader. I for one will not buy another copy of that magazine, but I take no comfort that these sort of claims are continuing to tens of thousands of readers. It's simply not the truth.

As the great Douglas Adams said..you can make an argument and convince yourself that black is white..and then get run over on a zebra crossing.





Very first post and you claim to be some sort of electrical GOD huh

Yeah... ILL take you seriously

(Ps ~ your ears and eyes must be SHOT at. Id suggest you visit opticians for glasses and doctors for your eras. Maybe theyre full of wax? Do let us know

)

 

[idc]

aliEnRIK:

Very first post and you claim to be some sort of electrical GOD huh

Yeah... ILL take you seriously

(Ps ~ your ears and eyes must be SHOT at. Id suggest you visit opticians for glasses and doctors for your eras. Maybe theyre full of wax? Do let us know

)

Rick. I like a debate and I don't mind when it gets a bit excited, but your comments, especially as they are directed at a first poster, are IMHO out of order. There have been a number of posters on the 'cable debate' threads who have declared and shown a dgree of technical knowledge. But, whilst sometimes their attitude has not exactly been pleasant, their knowledge and opinion is still valid and open to debate. Driving someone away from the forum who could be the person who has a really sound and convincing argument against the 'cables make a difference' view point does no one any favours. You can be forthright in your opinions and the way you express them, so I think that you should be more tolerant of others like yourself.

P.S - I like you and your style of debate, but I have the skin of a rhino and a disclaimer in my bio!

 

[Anonymous]

Oraclegod: I became disillusioned when any form of technical analysis was ditched in favour of individual perception.

Oraclegod, have you tried a power cable or mains conditioner for yourself?

 

[Anonymous]

AKL:
Oraclegod: I became disillusioned when any form of technicalÿanalysis was ditched in favour of individual perception.

Oraclegod, have you tried a power cable or mains conditionerÿfor yourself?

Here's what Plinius have to say:

ÿ

We have found that the most common reason for dissatisfaction is the mains power source. Specifically the series impedance (or resistance) of the mains circuit the amplifier is plugged into. In the USA this is more of a problem because of the lower voltage, and higher current demands. The ultimate solution can require a heavy dedicated mains circuit, just for the audio equipment, but it is important to consider a few simple factors first. We have found that any mains conditioner, or filter, that acts in series with the mains (and most work this way) will starve the amplifier and negatively affect the sound. Try plugging the amplifier directly into the wall socket

The problem is that it's all subjective, and if you hear a difference, there is a difference, and no science can deny that.

ÿ

 

[aliEnRIK]

idc:aliEnRIK:

Very first post and you claim to be some sort of electrical GOD huh

Yeah... ILL take you seriously

(Ps ~ your ears and eyes must be SHOT at. Id suggest you visit opticians for glasses and doctors for your eras. Maybe theyre full of wax? Do let us know

)

Rick. I like a debate and I don't mind when it gets a bit excited, but your comments, especially as they are directed at a first poster, are IMHO out of order. There have been a number of posters on the 'cable debate' threads who have declared and shown a dgree of technical knowledge. But, whilst sometimes their attitude has not exactly been pleasant, their knowledge and opinion is still valid and open to debate. Driving someone away from the forum who could be the person who has a really sound and convincing argument against the 'cables make a difference' view point does no one any favours. You can be forthright in your opinions and the way you express them, so I think that you should be more tolerant of others like yourself.

P.S - I like you and your style of debate, but I have the skin of a rhino and a disclaimer in my bio!

Did you miss the point that hes claiming ive been brainwashed?

 

[Anonymous]

Tarquinh:AKL:

Oraclegod: I became disillusioned when any form of technical analysis was ditched in favour of individual perception.

Oraclegod, have you tried a power cable or mains conditioner for yourself?

Here's what Plinius have to say:

We have found that the most common reason for dissatisfaction is the mains power source. Specifically the series impedance (or resistance) of the mains circuit the amplifier is plugged into. In the USA this is more of a problem because of the lower voltage, and higher current demands. The ultimate solution can require a heavy dedicated mains circuit, just for the audio equipment, but it is important to consider a few simple factors first. We have found that any mains conditioner, or filter, that acts in series with the mains (and most work this way) will starve the amplifier and negatively affect the sound. Try plugging the amplifier directly into the wall socket

The problem is that it's all subjective, and if you hear a difference, there is a difference, and no science can deny that.

I have heard about conditioners affecting the dynamics of music, hence I went with Isotek condiitoners, here is what they say on their website's FAQ:

I have heard that mains conditioning has a negative effect on amplifiers, due to it restricting (or throttling) the dynamics. Is this true?

Yes, unless the peak power delivery of the filter is significantly in excess of the peak power required by the amplifier. We use massive laminated isolation transformers run at low flux and current densities that are capable of massive peaks. When titans are used, practically all people report an increase of system dynamic range. This is in part due to lowering system noise and part supplying "purer" power to the amplifier which in turn may deliver a more competent performance.

 

[aliEnRIK]

AKL:

I have heard about conditioners affecting the dynamics of music, hence I went with Isotek condiitoners, here is what they say on their website's FAQ:

I have heard that mains conditioning has a negative effect on amplifiers, due to it restricting (or throttling) the dynamics. Is this true?

Yes, unless the peak power delivery of the filter is significantly in excess of the peak power required by the amplifier. We use massive laminated isolation transformers run at low flux and current densities that are capable of massive peaks. When titans are used, practically all people report an increase of system dynamic range. This is in part due to lowering system noise and part supplying "purer" power to the amplifier which in turn may deliver a more competent performance.

Good call

Thats precisely why I went for the Isotek Sigmas (And my power amp draws a LOT of power)

 

[idc]

aliEnRIK:idc: ....You can be forthright in your opinions and the way you express them, so I think that you should be more tolerant of others like yourself.....

Did you miss the point that hes claiming ive been brainwashed?

No, I was just making the point that Oraclegod's argument was rather forthright and did not hold back in use of language, the same as you!Trying to claim cable differences are down to some sort of brainwashing is clearly nonsense.

Tarqunih and AKL. Your discussion on conditioners is interesting and makes sense, so I am going to unplug my Silencer tonight and see what difference it makes. I suspect it will not, as a headphone amp does not use the same amount of power as other amps and so makes less of a demand on the current, I think, not sure, anyone?!

 

[JoelSim]

Oraclegod:
As someone who has been enthusiastic in the pastÿabout HiFi. I became disillusioned when any form of technicalÿanalysis was ditched in favour of individual perception. I lost faith in reviews.ÿIt was good when these twoÿworked in tandem.

Example..I remember an amp suffering from sibilance..the reviewer easily measured thisÿon an oscilloscope and it had crossover distortion.. it all made sense and informed the reader.

I'm afraid that the mains cable 'debate' is beyond me. For instance I know for a fact that it is beyond the cababilities of humans to detect an improvement in sound (or picture) due to a microscopic improvement in voltage drop due to a better madeÿ'kettle lead'

ÿIn laymans terms it's like saying if a mosquito collides with your house at 1MPHÿyou would feel the impact from your sofa...ridiculous eh?

ÿThose who know and understand the science behind this and howÿpower supplies are designed and operateÿwill never convince those who have this misplaced belief. It seems like a sort ofÿreligion if you will, and that makes me a little sad as it reflects poorly on humans and how easliyÿthey can be misled and effectivelyÿbrainwashed.

But hey, carry on as you want ..ÿbut what I really object to is authoratitive claims in a 'well respected' ukÿmagazine, which in reality areÿinsulting the reader. I for one will not buy another copy of that magazine, but I take no comfort that these sort of claims areÿcontinuing to tens of thousands of readers. It's simply not the truth.

Asÿthe great Douglas Adams said..you can make an argument and convince yourself that black is white..and then get run over on a zebra crossing.

ÿ


I beg to differ. A Nordost Shiva I put on my CDP recently had a marked difference in realism, far more air between instruments and more. And that was an upgrade from a different mains lead, rather than the kettle lead it came with. So much so, in fact, that I then spent £300 on two Clearer Audio Silverlines for my amps. I don't think I would have done that if the first one hadn't made a discernable difference. I'm not stupid.

ÿ

 

[aliEnRIK]

idc:aliEnRIK:idc: ....You can be forthright in your opinions and the way you express them, so I think that you should be more tolerant of others like yourself.....

Did you miss the point that hes claiming ive been brainwashed?

No, I was just making the point that Oraclegod's argument was rather forthright and did not hold back in use of language, the same as you!Trying to claim cable differences are down to some sort of brainwashing is clearly nonsense.

Tarqunih and AKL. Your discussion on conditioners is interesting and makes sense, so I am going to unplug my Silencer tonight and see what difference it makes. I suspect it will not, as a headphone amp does not use the same amount of power as other amps and so makes less of a demand on the current, I think, not sure, anyone?!

Its his 'brainwashing' comment that had me comment the way I did. Had a been a little more civilised then I would too. Everyones entitled to an opinion, just dont call me a numpty just because my opinion differs from yours

(Not you personally obviously)

In fact, if anyone been 'brainwashed' its those have have learnt electrics from college and uni etc and abide by them 100% like their eyes and ears are closed to anything that suggests otherwise.

 

[Anonymous]

aliEnRIK: In fact, if anyone been 'brainwashed' its those have have learnt electrics from college and uni etc and abide by them 100% like their eyes and ears are closed to anything that suggests otherwise.

You are assuming that they have actually tried mains conditioning for themselves before telling us it is all nonsense.... A debate is only worthwhile if the parties involved have had personal experience of the subject in question. I asked oraclegod earlier whether he/she has tried power cables and main conditioner personally and I await the answer. When I first tried the Isotek Mini-sub, it didn't make any noticeable difference at all but it did the next day!! I scratched my head for days until I pinned down the reason -- the first try was late in the evening and all quiet on the western front, and the next try was Sunday afternoon with lots of machines going in my house (dishwasher, tumble dryer) plus neighbours washing cars with pressure washers etc etc. You can say I had an Eureka moment. I have since repeated the exercise and got the same result. So no "snake oil" as far as I am concerned. The difference was not huge, just more detail and space to the sound, I live in a semi-rural location but I would imagine the difference would be bigger if one lives in a built up area.

 

[aliEnRIK]

Well thats what its all about ~ mains 'noise'. If you dont have any, then there wont be any effect (well, airbourne EMI comes into it as well but you get my meaning)

I was actually assuming they HADNT tried it and were just going off what theyd been taught all their lives. You know ~ like the worlds still FLAT and all that

 

[Anonymous]

idc: Tarqunih and AKL. Your discussion on conditioners is interesting and makes sense, so I am going to unplug my Silencer tonight and see what difference it makes.

idc, may I suggest you do the test during times when there are lots of electrical activities in your house and outside?