Power cable

[Andrewjvt]

If this guy sells them

https://youtu.be/H4LwlXUsNfI

 

[shadders]

Again shadders you are being overly pedantic. Some of the graphs they explain what the axis are.

They also quite clearly say this is all new and we only have so much information and understanding and are not going into huge detail - hifi demo not a uni course which is fair enough.

The demos they would do is the exact same demos they were doing all the time. There is one for stillpoints that I can link for you if you want Its pretty much same thing similar people

Again the message is we can hear big differences but can we show anything to corroborate it. Roy Gregory uses a few wrong words in the presentation - he says timing errors when he means to say time domain errors. Thats likely because he is used to saying it so thats what comes out when you are in a situation like that semi rehearsed and you get thrown off your thought directions with questions. All been there.

The thing to point they are and they are not really selling anything. Normally in those demos the something being promoted gets added to the system and they do before and after playback. Something is being sold.

You cant say for sure whether is accurate or made as there is not more detail I appreciate that. Fact its still on the vertex aq website means they are still trying to make their costs back from it / feel its genuine. Each to their own thought on that one

Hi,

The document states connecting the power cord and mains purifier reduces the errors - hence the red and blue graphs on the last page. They are selling these power cords and mains purifier.

The point i am making is that :

1. Mains can be clean - that is, no noise.

2. They have repeatable results. When they analyse the errors in the timing, they get the same errors in exactly the same place, every time. If the clock circuit was experiencing jitter (clock timing noise) it would be random - gaussian. They state it is not this, on page 10 of their document. (Page 10, right hand column, first paragraph.) This is what they are claiming is new - never seen before - totally different distortion mechanism.

3. If the mains was pure 50Hz, 240volts RMS, you would NOT see the reduction in the errors when they connect their power cord and mains purifier.

4. So, how are they ensuring that there is noise on the mains that affects the timing of the CD players under test ?.

Regards,

Shadders.

I wondered if that is what you was getting at before - they are putting noise on the mains to get a result? No way of knowing that one dude is there.

Seems a bit silly but I know how scepticle you are so you see any area - I would as well.

They do say we have funded this but we are not saying the results are exclusive to our products - you could use any from all these manufacturers - they name about 5 and it would be the same.

Its not hard and cold selling based around this is it in that sense.

Hi,

The document is too vague for anyone to be able to determine anything other than what they are telling you. What they have stated is :
"What is more, this result is repeatable, the same musical extract played in the same machine and under the sameoperating parameters, gives exactly the same results every time you run the test, irrespective of geographical location, even when the tests are conducted months apart."
They have never stated the operating conditions, but noise on the mains can be vastly different depending on where you are, influenced significantly by the industry or systems (mobile, radio transmitters etc) located near you, or the mains can be very clean.

So, for the same operating conditions, they must be generating them. What they are, has never been published.

Regards,

Shadders.

I get that shadders , makes sense needs to be an exact constant - I bet they have likely plugged the cd player into a plug socket in whereever they are in wales - same one everytime as you would to use it normally.

Now you normally say none of that noise on the mains will make any difference any way - it wont affect the playback of a system - so what does it matter if its 9am January or 12pm June?

Or do you think they have plugged in 99 chinese smps psu's in a massive inline strip to then show the benefit of their power conditioner ?

Hi,

To ensure that there is RF noise which their products are claimed to remove, they could be injecting it onto the mains of the units under test. We do not know - they have not published.

Also, what they have not stated in detail, is what the errors are, and how they are measured. All we know is that they are timing errors where, to quote the document "Once the two plots are overlaid it becomes clear that the player’s output differs quite significantly from the original signal, leading it at some points, lagging at others"

They state it is repeatable - despite geographical location - so, injecting noise on the mains is the most probable explanation, as they are also claiming that their products that remove the noise have a beneficial effect (reduce the errors).

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[Oldphrt]

Any piece of gear worthy of the hifi name will be immune to such interference anyway.

 

[ellisdj]

Again its inferrance Shadders - when a member of the audience asks them why are the products working and are they going to focus on that - they actually say we are not sure exactly what is causing what - and what exactly does what. That is a little bit of honesty there - not cold hard selling all the time as is often suggested of anyone in this market.

Shadders we should meet up and wrestle - it would be an interesting coffee to have with you

 

[shadders]

Again its inferrance Shadders - when a member of the audience asks them why are the products working and are they going to focus on that - they actually say we are not sure exactly what is causing what - and what exactly does what. That is a little bit of honesty there - not cold hard selling all the time as is often suggested of anyone in this market.

Shadders we should meet up and wrestle - it would be an interesting coffee to have with you

Hi,

So, in 2009, they have presented their results and research, and the publication is very vague, and since then nothing - 8 years of no other statement. Yet they still continue to sell their products which solves the timing issue that they published.

They have never published the test conditions. So when they state they do not know what is causing it - i would not expect this to be an entirely accurate statement. Recall - a clean mains supply will not cause this issue.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Again its inferrance Shadders - when a member of the audience asks them why are the products working and are they going to focus on that - they actually say we are not sure exactly what is causing what - and what exactly does what.  That is a little bit of honesty there - not cold hard selling all the time as is often suggested of anyone in this market.

Shadders we should meet up and wrestle - it would be an interesting coffee to have with you 

Cant you see that these vague videos and such are only made to put doubt in your mind and play upon the 'audiophile paranoia'

Making people buy the products?

How could you simply just plug in your hifi and enjoy it now after watching that???

They have said everything and also nothing at the same time. The job they have been paid to do is done.

They have done the job so well that some people actually spend more on cables/conditoners/isolation stands/usb isolators etc than amps and speakers.

 

[Andrewjvt]

All the music that could have been paid for instead?

 

[CnoEvil]

All the music that could have been paid for instead?

I have a foot in both camps.....this sort of promotion got me trying a variety of filtering/conditioning/mains regeneration, in my system. To my ears, they all changed the sound....but for my taste, it was for the worse.

 

[ellisdj]

I had never looked at it like that before Andrew - that is a good point dude. That probably does work with a lot of people, so good shout.

EDIT - I dont think that is why that video is made but in general you have made good point.

 

[ellisdj]

All the music that could have been paid for instead?

I have a foot in both camps.....this sort of promotion got me trying a variety of filtering/conditioning/mains regeneration, in my system. To my ears, they all changed the sound....but for my taste, it was for the worse.

CNo does that mean you would never try another one?

 

[Andrewjvt]

I had never looked at it like that before Andrew - that is a good point dude.  That probably does work with a lot of people, so good shout.  

 

I have a lot of respect for you in your love for the hobby and also room correction in particular. If i ever start measurements ill be seeking your help full stop.

Heres my other point though

Lets just say ive brought a new amp and speaker combo, id be scared to let you hear it incase you look and see none of the fancy products installed and in your mind it could not sound good as youd be thinking how good it would sound with it all.

Does that make sense?

 

[Andrewjvt]

All the music that could have been paid for instead?

I have a foot in both camps.....this sort of promotion got me trying a variety of filtering/conditioning/mains regeneration, in my system. To my ears, they all changed the sound....but for my taste, it was for the worse.

I dont know but could it be added distortion?

 

[Frank Harvey]

And we wonder why it's a shrinking hobby. But then I suppose you have this aspect in virtually every hobby you could probably name - it's not exlcusive to hi-fi.

 

[ellisdj]

Yes mate totally - I am not like that though - if it sounds good I will say so. If its cheap and sounds good then I will be mega impressed. You can only reference good sound to your own sound really - sound you have to hear, talking about it is cheap .

Expensive doenst mean good sound to me - I dont know you why think that about me, I have heard lots of expensive systems that have not impressed me at all, some dissapointed.

Sorry if that is how I come across. I dont mean to

 

[shadders]

Any piece of gear worthy of the hifi name will be immune to such interference anyway.

Hi,

Agreed, but we don't know how they have conducted their tests (setup). So, they could have got something wrong (unknowingly), and that is the cause.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[CnoEvil]

CNo does that mean you would never try another one?

IMV. The best solutions were so expensive, that it has ruled it out for the forseeable. The best I heard was an Atlas Balanced Mains Transormer, which they stopped making when the price of copper shot up.

 

[ellisdj]

Prices of mains solutions products have gone bonkers totally - Thank god for the second hand market.

Champagne products for lemonade money - thats how I have had to do it for the large part.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Yes mate totally - I am not like that though - if it sounds good I will say so.  If its cheap and sounds good then I will be mega impressed.  You can only reference good sound to your own sound really - sound you have to hear, talking about it is cheap .

Expensive doenst mean good sound to me - I dont know you why think that about me, I have heard lots of expensive systems that have not impressed me at all, some dissapointed. 

Sorry if that is how I come across. I dont mean to 

Lol what i meant was any hifi cheap or expensive does not matter but if it did not come equiped with all the main conditioners/power cords etc.

These sort of add on products.

If ny system i demo you did not have them.

Inm youd be thinking how it could sound with all the add on cables etc instead of how it sounds now.

Does that make sense?

Its not intended as a dig.
just a thought

 

[ellisdj]

Yes I would you are 100% right - but only because half the time what I am hearing reminds me of how mine was before I did A /B /C etc so i feel like it could be improved. It would be made more how I have become accustomed to hearing it / how I like it though. That is natural I think, cant stop that.

That doesnt mean one cant appreciate something different - I can appreciate it all and really enjoy listening to other systems. Its the best thing (sometimes worst) you can do in this hobby I think.

 

[Oldphrt]

Prices of mains solutions products have gone bonkers totally - Thank god for the second hand market.

Champagne products for lemonade money - thats how I have had to do it for the large part.

No, they are lemon products for lemons.

 

[Oldphrt]

CNo does that mean you would never try another one?

IMV. The best solutions were so expensive, that it has ruled it out for the forseeable. The best I heard was an Atlas Balanced Mains Transormer, which they stopped making when the price of copper shot up.

You heard one? Did it go hummmmm?

 

[shadders]

And we wonder why it's a shrinking hobby. But then I suppose you have this aspect in virtually every hobby you could probably name - it's not exlcusive to hi-fi.

Hi,

I don't think this thread is any indication as to why hifi is a shrinking market/hobby. In the 70's and early 80's a hifi in the home was an important part of culture (or aspiration), today, it is quantity over quality, due to convenience of MP3 etc. People want the latest mobile, not the latest hifi.

For electronics, the number of publications has declined severely, and they are now only subscription - WH Smiths etc., do not stock them all as they did once before.

As you have stated - this thread is probably repeated elswhere in the same genre, or different hobbies. People don't change.

Regards,

Shadders.

 

[andyjm]

CNo does that mean you would never try another one?

IMV. The best solutions were so expensive, that it has ruled it out for the forseeable. The best I heard was an Atlas Balanced Mains Transormer, which they stopped making when the price of copper shot up.

You heard one? Did it go hummmmm?

As my old boss used to say, "why do transformers hum?... because they don't know the words..."

 

[Andrewjvt]

Yes I would you are 100% right - but only because half the time what I am hearing reminds me of how mine was before I did A /B /C etc so i feel like it could be improved.  It would be made more how I have become accustomed to hearing it / how I like it though.  That is natural I think, cant stop that.

That doesnt mean one cant appreciate something different - I can appreciate it all and really enjoy listening to other systems.  Its the best thing (sometimes worst) you can do in this hobby I think.

 

Well many people blow their money on gambling and booze so why not on that?

Its not hurting anyone

 

[Frank Harvey]

And we wonder why it's a shrinking hobby. But then I suppose you have this aspect in virtually every hobby you could probably name - it's not exlcusive to hi-fi.

Hi,

I don't think this thread is any indication as to why hifi is a shrinking market/hobby. In the 70's and early 80's a hifi in the home was an important part of culture (or aspiration), today, it is quantity over quality, due to convenience of MP3 etc. People want the latest mobile, not the latest hifi.

For electronics, the number of publications has declined severely, and they are now only subscription - WH Smiths etc., do not stock them all as they did once before.

As you have stated - this thread is probably repeated elswhere in the same genre, or different hobbies. People don't change.

Regards,

Shadders.

It wasn't so much just about this thread (although I'm sure those tuning in for the first time would more than likely be put off reading any further, let alone joining up), but also videos like the linked one talking about huge gains from mains cables etc, and that high quality electronics sound naff without them. Complete tosh.

If you have a high quality system, by all means research and audition mains cables (or just buy some if you really want them), but anyone in the budget arena, or even to some extent, in the midfield of audio, really should be concentrating on set up/placement etc, and making sure their existing or system is well chosen and put together in the first place. Although, I'd look at plumbing in a separate mains spur just for the hi-fi before even looking at mains cables, or maybe a mains regeneration unit - again, not cheap, so more for those who have spent a lot on their hi-fi and their next step is crazy money anyway.