PMC Twenty5.22 vs Twenty.22

[ErwinC]

As an owner of a pair of PMC Twenty.22 speakers i was wondering, after reading the recent review of the Twenty5.22 in WHF, how these new speakers compare with the 20.22. And how they compare with the PMC Fact 3 since the 20.22 was close to the Fact 3 according to some people.

Is a switch from the 20.22 to the new 25.22 a real upgrade ?

 

[Frank Harvey]

Definitely.

There's way too many posts on forums with regards to all replacement model lines are just tweaks, that they're basically the same, and that it is just attention seeking by manufacturers to get stuff re-reviewed. Looks can be deceiving to those who haven't done any research. Like the current Bowers & Wilkins 800 Series, PMC's TwentyFive Series is a completely different range, with very few components carried over to the new models. If I recall correctly, the screws for the HF unit are the same - other than that everything is a different component, different material, different design, even different cabinet dimensions.

In our 16th century demo rooms (no solid walls, probably akin to a Barrett's type home), we found the Twenty Series quite lean sounding, and would usually lose out to most other ranges in the bass presence department because of it. The TwentyFives address that, and bring that missing bass back. They'll play louder too (not that the older ones weren't loud enough), as the material used can take more punishment. Whilst the bass is the most immediately different aspect between the two ranges, many other aspects have been improved too. They're better built with thicker cabinets, so they're now more transparent. They're far more detailed too, despite the improved bass performance. Midrange also benefits from the better mid/bass driver too.

They're just as easy a load as the older Twenty Series too, so if your amplifier is doing a decent job with the Twenty.22, it'll be fine with the TwentyFive.22 too. Get a demo if you can just to confirm they're what you're looking for, but I doubt you'll be disappointed with them. They're certainly on my radar come my next upgrade.

 

[ErwinC]

Thank a lot David !

 

[bluedroog]

I'd love to hear this series but more interested in the floorstanding versions. I really enjoyed the Twenty series and was in the market for the 22s, they did so much right but had a massive drawback for me. I just can't get on with a short tranmission line, they make the lower frequencies disjointed from the rest of the range, it almost feels like it is out of time which I found so distracting. A transmission line should be looooooong, I can imagine the bigger versions of the .5 range sound incredible.

 

[ErwinC]

I'd love to hear this series but more interested in the floorstanding versions. I really enjoyed the Twenty series and was in the market for the 22s, they did so much right but had a massive drawback for me. I just can't get on with a short tranmission line, they make the lower frequencies disjointed from the rest of the range, it almost feels like it is out of time which I found so distracting. A transmission line should be looooooong, I can imagine the bigger versions of the .5 range sound incredible.

I never noticed that disjointed problem. I have also not seen measurements confirming this.

 

[bluedroog]

I'd love to hear this series but more interested in the floorstanding versions. I really enjoyed the Twenty series and was in the market for the 22s, they did so much right but had a massive drawback for me. I just can't get on with a short tranmission line, they make the lower frequencies disjointed from the rest of the range, it almost feels like it is out of time which I found so distracting. A transmission line should be looooooong, I can imagine the bigger versions of the .5 range sound incredible.

I never noticed that disjointed problem. I have also not seen measurements confirming this.

Not sure if it could be measured, it was a very audible effect I experienced though. It may have been the room although I didn't epeince it with other speakers in the same room. With all the variables your expeince is no doubt different.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I'd love to hear this series but more interested in the floorstanding versions.

Whilst the benefits of the new TwentyFives cover the whole range, I did feel that the biggest improvements were with the floorstanders. I only really need 21s in my room as 22swould be pushing it size wise, but seriously interested in the 23s due to their size. I want to try the TwoTwo.5s first though, as a power amplifier upgrade would be nigh on £5k if I go for the Classe Sigma Amp5. My thinking is that three active TwoTwo.5s cost about the same as a pair of TwentyFive.23s with matching centre - it'll be down to what works best in my room.

 

[ErwinC]

After having listened (briefly) to both the Twenty5.22 and Fact 3, i have the impression that the Fact 3 sounds far more relaxed than the very energetic Twenty5.22. I don't know which one is best, they sound completely different. *scratch_one-s_head*

 

[nopiano]

After having listened (briefly) to both the Twenty5.22 and Fact 3, i have the impression that the Fact 3 sounds far more relaxed than the very energetic Twenty5.22. I don't know which one is best, they sound completely different. *scratch_one-s_head*

I'mostly had good experiences with PMCs, both the Twenty series and the Fact .8

Slightly worrying that you found/heard a significant difference, as Id have expected more consistency between them - a 'house' sound, if you like.

 

[Gray]

Personally I'd take energy over relaxed every time.

WHF review talks of the 80% more powerful motor and magnet system of the new model's main driver, probably a major reason for that fast and exciting character which they describe as being too much at times.

One of the things I like about my twenty 21 originals is the fact that they sound fast and lively. (I chose a Cyrus amp for the same reason)

No speaker could be too energetic for me. Too expensive, sadly that's a different story.

 

[bluedroog]

I'd love to hear this series but more interested in the floorstanding versions. I really enjoyed the Twenty series and was in the market for the 22s, they did so much right but had a massive drawback for me. I just can't get on with a short tranmission line, they make the lower frequencies disjointed from the rest of the range, it almost feels like it is out of time which I found so distracting. A transmission line should be looooooong, I can imagine the bigger versions of the .5 range sound incredible.

I never noticed that disjointed problem. I have also not seen measurements confirming this.

Seems it isn't just me, a few posts in a short thread make reference to timing issues in the bass of PMC speakers. Not going to happen any time soon but I'd love to hear what PMC could produce dropping their tranmission line design principles.

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=191913

 

[bluedroog]

Post 11 in reference to 'various models' The bass just seems to time poorly with the rest of the frequency range and have a quite different quality.

Post 13 in reference to PMC unspecified models: bass that seems to arrive two seconds too late.

This is exactly in line with my experience of them, I just happened to see those posts after this one. I heard them on the end of £5k worth of Leema gear.

I'm not knocking your speakers, they are very fine in many respects and I wanted to love them, I thought they were going to be the speakers for me but this was a very audible issue for me and personally I found it to be unacceptable. I'm delighted they are right for you because your enjoyment is all that matters when it comes to your speakers. It is an audio forum though and having found this timing issue having demoed them I was curious to see it wasn't just me that found this.

 

[ErwinC]

Post 11 in reference to 'various models' The bass just seems to time poorly with the rest of the frequency range and have a quite different quality.

Post 13 in reference to PMC unspecified models: bass that seems to arrive two seconds too late.

This is exactly in line with my experience of them, I just happened to see those posts after this one. I heard them on the end of £5k worth of Leema gear.

I'm not knocking your speakers, they are very fine in many respects and I wanted to love them, I thought they were going to be the speakers for me but this was a very audible issue for me and personally I found it to be unacceptable.

To give the correct context of these 2 postings:

Post 11: "The bass just seems to time poorly with the rest of the frequency range and have a quite different quality. The TL loading used does seem to produce a lot of bass so perhaps that is what some like about it. As an example, I remember attending a show a few years ago and went into one room demonstrating PMC. It was full of blokes standing about nodding their heads to loud rock music (nothing wrong with that, I'm keen on a bit of loud rock myself) - they seemed to be enjoying themselves but the sound was just laughably poor - yes there was masses of bass but it was totally lacking in any shape and seemed entirely disjointed from the rest of the music!"

Post 13: "I can't understand what all the fuss is about with PMC. To my ears they are dull, overpriced bits of furniture with bass that seems to arrive two seconds too late."

Like i said above , not really useful information. This seems nothing more than PMC bashing.

 

[bluedroog]

May not be of any use to you, you can't discount people's opinions because they're not in line with your own.

 

[Electro]

Post 11 in reference to 'various models' The bass just seems to time poorly with the rest of the frequency range and have a quite different quality.

Post 13 in reference to PMC unspecified models: bass that seems to arrive two seconds too late.

This is exactly in line with my experience of them, I just happened to see those posts after this one. I heard them on the end of £5k worth of Leema gear.

I'm not knocking your speakers, they are very fine in many respects and I wanted to love them, I thought they were going to be the speakers for me but this was a very audible issue for me and personally I found it to be unacceptable. I'm delighted they are right for you because your enjoyment is all that matters when it comes to your speakers. It is an audio forum though and having found this timing issue having demoed them I was curious to see it wasn't just me that found this.

I have heard many different models of PMC speaker over the years and have never heard a problem with bass lag ,( two seconds really *shok* ) on the contrary they have the fastest tightest most realistic bass and the closest to live music bass possible, they start and stop so quickly that you can hear the whole bass note, they also seem to produce the best fastest most natural bass transients of any type of speaker that I have ever heard.

I can only think that because they produce real deep bass rather than the exaggerated upper bass most speakers seem to produce maybe the room acoustics are causing the bass problem or perhaps an under speced amplifier is loosing control.

I am not having a go at you or doubting what you heard, this is just my observation and experience *smile*

 

[ErwinC]

I have heard many different models of PMC speaker over the years and have never heard a problem with bass lag ,( two seconds really *shok* ) on the contrary they have the fastest tightest most realistic bass and the closest to live music bass possible, they start and stop so quickly that you can hear the whole bass note, they also seem to produce the best fastest most natural bass transients of any type of speaker that I have ever heard.

I totally agree.

 

[ErwinC]

May not be of any use to you, you can't discount people's opinions because they're not in line with your own.

I never do that, but the opinions in the thread you mentioned were really not very informative. They don't mention the speakers they heard, the electronics used, setup in room, ... . Also the way they describe the PMC sound (masses of bass, sound was just laughably poor, overpriced bits of furniture, Boom Boxes) makes me wondering ... .

I believe that you experienced a problem with the bass of the PMC speakers, but perhaps you should try to listen to them in another setup. I think you will be surprised.

 

[bluedroog]

May not be of any use to you, you can't discount people's opinions because they're not in line with your own.

I never do that, but the opinions in the thread you mentioned were really not very informative. They don't mention the speakers they heard, the electronics used, setup in room, ... . Also the way they describe the PMC sound (masses of bass, sound was just laughably poor, overpriced bits of furniture, Boom Boxes) makes me wondering ... .

I believe that you experienced a problem with the bass of the PMC speakers, but perhaps you should try to listen to them in another setup. I think you will be surprised.

I'd love to hear them again, I'm pretty sure the Leema gear was up to the task but I agree they should sound differenet in another room. I heard other speakers osunding good in the room but differnenet speakers will react diffenetly in the same room.

 

[ErwinC]

Seems it isn't just me, a few posts in a short thread make reference to timing issues in the bass of PMC speakers. Not going to happen any time soon but I'd love to hear what PMC could produce dropping their tranmission line design principles.

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=191913

I already saw that thread, but there is not a lot of useful info in it. The person talking about the bass problem with the Fact 8 had probably a problem with the setup of the speakers in that room and was not talking about a disjointed bass. They also say that PMC speakers produce a lot (masses) of bass which is certainly not the case for the Twenty series. So i am wondering if there was somebody in that thread that ever listened to the PMC twenty series in a decent setup? I think not.

.

I have read a lot of reviews about PMC speakers and none of them mention the problem with the disjointed bass you mention. Also, no PMC owner mentions this problem with the PMC Twenty series.

PMC alo design their speakers so the bass comes out of the TL in phase with the rest of the bass.

 

[bluedroog]

Post 11 in reference to 'various models' The bass just seems to time poorly with the rest of the frequency range and have a quite different quality.

Post 13 in reference to PMC unspecified models: bass that seems to arrive two seconds too late.

This is exactly in line with my experience of them, I just happened to see those posts after this one. I heard them on the end of £5k worth of Leema gear.

I'm not knocking your speakers, they are very fine in many respects and I wanted to love them, I thought they were going to be the speakers for me but this was a very audible issue for me and personally I found it to be unacceptable. I'm delighted they are right for you because your enjoyment is all that matters when it comes to your speakers. It is an audio forum though and having found this timing issue having demoed them I was curious to see it wasn't just me that found this.

I have heard many different models of PMC speaker over the years and have never heard a problem with bass lag ,( two seconds really *shok* ) on the contrary they have the fastest tightest most realistic bass and the closest to live music bass possible, they start and stop so quickly that you can hear the whole bass note, they also seem to produce the best fastest most natural bass transients of any type of speaker that I have ever heard.

I can only think that because they produce real deep bass rather than the exaggerated upper bass most speakers seem to produce maybe the room acoustics are causing the bass problem or perhaps an under speced amplifier is loosing control.

I am not having a go at you or doubting what you heard, this is just my observation and experience *smile*

Two seconds is clearly nonsense, that was a quote from somone else but of course they heard the same as me.

It is hard to describe a very specific element of what one is hearing because I also heard the same speakers as you describe them, and I loved them for that. However there was another element at play which just wasn't right for me. The open airyness and pace of them at other frquencies was spot on. I heard Amy Winehouse Lioness album on them and that first tune they excelled with, the bass line was great, really deep without muddying her voice which was delivered with a kind of effortlessness and deep soundstage. Then another track and it was like the were being played in a glass box.

 

[ErwinC]

The open airyness and pace of them at other frquencies was spot on. I heard Amy Winehouse Lioness album on them and that first tune they excelled with, the bass line was great, really deep without muddying her voice which was delivered with a kind of effortlessness and deep soundstage. Then another track and it was like the were being played in a glass box.

That is very strange and confirms my suspicion that something else was wrong. Perhaps the speakers were connected out of phase?

 

[bluedroog]

The open airyness and pace of them at other frquencies was spot on. I heard Amy Winehouse Lioness album on them and that first tune they excelled with, the bass line was great, really deep without muddying her voice which was delivered with a kind of effortlessness and deep soundstage. Then another track and it was like the were being played in a glass box.

That is very strange and confirms my suspicion that something else was wrong. Perhaps the speakers were connected out of phase?

Certainly hope not, it was in Sevenoaks S&V but you never know. I suspect not as others heard the same but I'd like to hear them again and I remain open minded to hear them differnently. I was actually building my system with a view to the 22s being the final bit. I had a Croft 25 pre-amp and Quad 909 to drive them and I suspect they'd sound brilliant together.

 

[lpv]

croft pre, quad power and PMC? that's something I would love to hear ! are you planning to get twenty5 or twenty series?

btw. do you have remote control for the croft pre? or separate knobs for right/ left channel?

 

[bluedroog]

croft pre, quad power and PMC? that's something I would love to hear ! are you planning to get twenty5 or twenty series?

btw. do you have remote control for the croft pre? or separate knobs for right/ left channel?

Hi, I never got to hear it as I changed tact and went active with a pair of Event Opals which I've also tried with the Croft, bit of an unconvensional pairing! I've actually removed the Croft at the moment and go direct from DAC but will go with a passive as it works in this set up.

I can imagine the top end of the Twenty series given that extra bit of body from the Croft and grip of the 909 would work really well, it was the Twenty series I considered but this was well over a year ago now.

I sold the 909 to fund the Opals but would buy one again in a heartbeat if I needed an amp. The Croft does have dual mono volume which is a little bit of a pain but not exactly hard to use. Adrian Parsons of Audio Flair can retro-fit a remote volume which involves disconnecting one of the knobs in the process so you loose balanace, it cost about £100 fitted.

 

[steve_1979]

... The Croft does have dual mono volume which is a little bit of a pain but not exactly hard to use...

Separate left and right volume knobs sounds like it would be a real PITA to use. It seems like an odd design choice.

What's the point? Are there any theoretrical advantages to a dual mono design?