PMC OR ATC

[Macspur]

Hi,

Been pondering new speakers for some months now, had to get alittle matter of a wedding out of the way first though.

From what I've read on here, it's boiling down to PMC DB1I TB1I ATC CM11 or Cm19.

I really want to home demo them, but no way of doing that with the ATC... any thoughts?

Sugden A21L amp Rega Saturn CDP B&W CM2 speakers.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Hi Macspur

What do you generally listen to?

What is the size of your listening room?

Room positioning of the speakers in relation to back/side walls?

Thanks

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Craig M.]

scm19 all day long, for me. as nice as the db1i is, the 19s would steamroller them. can you not take your amp along to a dealer? atcs are very room friendly, so if it sounds good at a dealers it should at home.

 

[the record spot]

Hi Macspur - I understand your rationale I think, but why on earth would you limit yourself to what's been listed on here?

No offence to the good people of PMC, ATC and anyone who's bought or rates them, but there are heaps of other brands out there and some superb speakers to boot. I'd be honing up my shortlisting skills a bit and going well above and beyond what are a handful of opinions regarding the usual suspects on a web forum.

 

[chebby]

Despite agreeing with Craig that the SCMs would 'steamroller' the PMCs (especially at ear breaking volumes), I have just noticed your Sugden A21L amp.

You might be better off dumping it and getting the ATC SIA2 150 amp instead. 150 watts per channel of pure muscle instead of the 20 watts per channel of your Sugden.

The SCM11s that I have heard regularly since last December (with a Primare i30) love a LOT of power to get going. They can go so loud that my friend's system has attracted the attention of people in the next road. (Thankfully not when I have been there!)

Hopefully you don't have neighbours!

Personally (if I had your Sugden) I would be looking at a different solution than either ATC or PMC.

You might also want to consider the new EB Acoustics EB2 as an option (£669).

 

[MattSPL]

I have owned the PMC DB1i's, followed by ATC scm19's.

The DB1i was a good value speaker at its launch price of £770. For its size it has good bass depth, if lacking actual bass weight.
Midrange and trebble were also good for the price. Paired with decent electronics, they let you hear into the mix and have the ability to show differences in recording quality and compression used.
But, and its a big but. The new retail of £985 is however a bit steep in my opinion. And the build quality is a bit light weight, although fit and finish is very good.

I replaced the DB1i's with ATC scm19's.

The scm19 eclipsed the DB1i in every area several times over. Better bass by a long shot in terms of weight and quality. Ease of placement due to sealed enclosure. Midrange transparency unheard of in all but the best loudspeakers. And a sweet trebble to complete a stunning loudspeaker.

One scm19 bass driver weighs the same as a complete pair of DB1i speakers(9kg). Thats build quality.
To be fair, the scm19 is twice the size and £700 more expensive, but it is more that twice as good. Probably 4 or 5 times as good in fact.

I think if you are in the market for a £1000 speaker like the DB1i, then you are fairly serious about your hifi.
My point here being, although the scm19 is another £700, it is worth every penny and worth saving for. And not that much more money in the grand scheme of things.
Or, you can have the scm11 for a little less than the cost of the DB1i, and have a large slice of the scm19's performance.

But remember, with any high quality loudspeaker, you need high quality electronics to get the best from them.

 

[Anonymous]

Chebby makes an interesting point about sensitivity. For my tastes, I'd look to try more speakers like Proac and PMC, keeping the superb Sugden. Why not add Spendor to the list too.

 

[JoelSim]

igglebert:Chebby makes an interesting point about sensitivity. For my tastes, I'd look to try more speakers like Proac and PMC, keeping the superb Sugden. Why not add Spendor to the list too.

And Neat. And Kudos.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Your room size will help a little in this instance.

You have a cracking amp, which I would keep. It's extremely capable, and will drive the majority of speakers in the price point in question.

Of those you mention, I think the PMC's would be the better bet, as they'll be easier to drive and an easier load on the amplifier Forget the DB1i's, their bass driver is a little too small to be authoritive, and as Matt states, they're not great value for money since their price rise. Weirdly, the TB2i's didn't go up in price, and represent far better value than the DB1i's. They use a larger, 6.5" bass driver in a larger cabinet, and do sound more like PMC's should.

The PMC's have a more delicate, sweet sounding treble and they're a great speaker for listening to at lower volumes. Where the ATC's come in is pure neutrality (for the price), which is a little more accurate.

ATC and PMC do produce quite a different sound, and an audition of both is a must. But if you do, you will need to take your amplifier along to make sure you can get the levels out of the ATC's that you require.

I'd also throw the ProAc Response D1 into the mix. It might be a little speaker, but they sound great on the end of Sugden.

 

[Macspur]

I listen to a lot of acoustic, folk, country etc. Also Jazz, pop and a bit of classicle.

The room is 13ft by 7ft.

I won't be ditching the Sugden... £1,600 forked out out just a few months ago and I love it.

I have listened to a few Spendor, but the only 1 that took my fancy was the A5, but it's a floor stander and I want to stick with stand mounts.

Thanks for all the advice guys, will keep you posted.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Macspur:
I listen to a lot of acoustic, folk, country etc. Also Jazz, pop and a bit of classicle.

The room is 13ft by 7ft.

I won't be ditching the Sugden... £1,600 forked out out just a few months ago and I love it.

I have listened to a few Spendor, but the only 1 that took my fancy was the A5, but it's a floor stander and I want to stick with stand mounts.

Thanks for all the advice guys, will keep you posted.

Hi Macspur

Thanks for your reply.

I will highly recommend ATC's SCM11. Even though the SCM19's with their massive SLMT mid/bass drive unit are significantly better than the SCM11's, i think with your room size the SCM11's will do the trick nicely.

The ATC's closed box design and more importantly their flat and honest presentation will make room positioning far easier without the bass in particular getting itself into a twist (i believe this asset will be very useful to you given the size of your room).

Your Sugden is a more than capable amplifier and has good quality of power. The SCM11's uncoloured, neutral, natural and powerful presentation will help the qualities of your components to shine through by enabling them to breathe.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[plastic penguin]

Macspur:

I listen to a lot of acoustic, folk, country etc. Also Jazz, pop and a bit of classicle.

The room is 13ft by 7ft.

I won't be ditching the Sugden... £1,600 forked out out just a few months ago and I love it.

I have listened to a few Spendor, but the only 1 that took my fancy was the A5, but it's a floor stander and I want to stick with stand mounts.

Thanks for all the advice guys, will keep you posted.

Depends on the application - like others have mentioned the PMCs are less fussy about amplification and they sound fantastic at low levels.

 

[plastic penguin]

MUSICRAFT:Macspur:

I listen to a lot of acoustic, folk, country etc. Also Jazz, pop and a bit of classicle.

The room is 13ft by 7ft.

I won't be ditching the Sugden... £1,600 forked out out just a few months ago and I love it.

I have listened to a few Spendor, but the only 1 that took my fancy was the A5, but it's a floor stander and I want to stick with stand mounts.

Thanks for all the advice guys, will keep you posted.

Hi Macspur

Thanks for your reply.

I will highly recommend ATC's SCM11. Even though the SCM19's with their massive SLMT mid/bass drive unit are significantly better than the SCM11's, i think with your room size the SCM11's will do the trick nicely.

The ATC's closed box design and more importantly their flat and honest presentation will make room positioning far easier without the bass in particular getting itself into a twist (i believe this asset will be very useful to you given the size of your room).

Your Sugden is a more than capable amplifier and has good quality of power. The SCM11's uncoloured, neutral, natural and powerful presentation will help the qualities of your components to shine through by enabling them to breathe.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Rick

However impressive the ATCs are...I love the SCM11s but you have to understand that a great speaker may not translate and/or be to everyone's taste.

Given the OPs room size and requirments what other speakers, apart from ATC, would you recommend?

 

[shooter]

This is a tricky one, but on the sensitivity issue and the partnering with the Sugden i think it falls (only just) in favour of PMC. I do think though ATC would work with the Sugden, its more of a personal choice.
I would home Demo the PMC's and go from there, at the end of the demo though you may find yourself sticking rather than twisting.

 

[MattSPL]

I forgot to mention in my previous post that, although the PMC DB1i's are 87db compared to the ATC scm19's 85db, the scm19's play louder at any given volume setting on the amp. And are equally good at low volume levels due to the scm19's greater weight and dynamic ability over the DB1i.

So i would not let the apparent low sensitivity put you off.

 

[mikegtar]

Proac Response D2 sounds good with a Sugden. Well worth an audition.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

plastic penguin:MUSICRAFT:Macspur:

I listen to a lot of acoustic, folk, country etc. Also Jazz, pop and a bit of classicle.

The room is 13ft by 7ft.

I won't be ditching the Sugden... £1,600 forked out out just a few months ago and I love it.

I have listened to a few Spendor, but the only 1 that took my fancy was the A5, but it's a floor stander and I want to stick with stand mounts.

Thanks for all the advice guys, will keep you posted.

Hi Macspur

Thanks for your reply.

I will highly recommend ATC's SCM11. Even though the SCM19's with their massive SLMT mid/bass drive unit are significantly better than the SCM11's, i think with your room size the SCM11's will do the trick nicely.

The ATC's closed box design and more importantly their flat and honest presentation will make room positioning far easier without the bass in particular getting itself into a twist (i believe this asset will be very useful to you given the size of your room).

Your Sugden is a more than capable amplifier and has good quality of power. The SCM11's uncoloured, neutral, natural and powerful presentation will help the qualities of your components to shine through by enabling them to breathe.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Rick

However impressive the ATCs are...I love the SCM11s but you have to understand that a great speaker may not translate and/or be to everyone's taste.

Given the OPs room size and requirments what other speakers, apart from ATC, would you recommend?

Hi plastic penguin

I have recommended Macspur the speakers i feel will be most appropiate. ATC's SCM11. Macspur has the final choice.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[Frank Harvey]

MattSPL: I forgot to mention in my previous post that, although the PMC DB1i's are 87db compared to the ATC scm19's 85db, the scm19's play louder at any given volume setting on the amp. And are equally good at low volume levels due to the scm19's greater weight and dynamic ability over the DB1i.

So i would not let the apparent low sensitivity put you off.

Sorry, but I have to disagree here. Although any PMC's I'm referring to as a possibility for the OP would be the TB2i's which I've recommended over the DB1i's, which I'm not keen on. The TBi's are 90dB, which is quite a bit more efficient than the SCM19's. Having done many demos of both of these brands (and numerous others) side by side, at low volume levels too, the PMC's are noticably better at lower volumes (and that goes for the DB1i's too).

The SCM19's will have greater weight to them due to their bigger cabinet volume and larger bass driver, but this difference is narrowed with the TB2i's.

As somebody else has stated on this thread (as well as I on many occasions), as good as the ATC's are - whether that would be as far as accuracy, faithfulness, placement etc etc is concerned, there's no single solution for everyone. We're all different. I've learned that a dealer can't place all his eggs in one basket - it comes back and bites you where you don't want it to, a story which I won't go into on here.

But my point is, the ATC's are harder to drive and do need more current to perform as they're supposed to. Anything less is selling them short.

There, I've said it.

 

[plastic penguin]

FrankHarveyHiFi:MattSPL: I forgot to mention in my previous post that, although the PMC DB1i's are 87db compared to the ATC scm19's 85db, the scm19's play louder at any given volume setting on the amp. And are equally good at low volume levels due to the scm19's greater weight and dynamic ability over the DB1i.

So i would not let the apparent low sensitivity put you off.

Sorry, but I have to disagree here. Although any PMC's I'm referring to as a possibility for the OP would be the TB2i's which I've recommended over the DB1i's, which I'm not keen on. The TBi's are 90dB, which is quite a bit more efficient than the SCM19's. Having done many demos of both of these brands (and numerous others) side by side, at low volume levels too, the PMC's are noticably better at lower volumes (and that goes for the DB1i's too).

The SCM19's will have greater weight to them due to their bigger cabinet volume and larger bass driver, but this difference is narrowed with the TB2i's.

As somebody else has stated on this thread (as well as I on many occasions), as good as the ATC's are - whether that would be as far as accuracy, faithfulness, placement etc etc is concerned, there's no single solution for everyone. We're all different. I've learned that a dealer can't place all his eggs in one basket - it comes back and bites you where you don't want it to, a story which I won't go into on here.

But my point is, the ATC's are harder to drive and do need more current to perform as they're supposed to. Anything less is selling them short.

There, I've said it.

Which echoes my earlier post. When I heard the SCM11s they were fantastic...I don't have any gripe towards their ability to reproduce music in a natural way. They are worthy holders of numerous awards.

Although I've not heard any other ATC apart from the 11s, I've always been very consistant and earnest with my appraisal ATC and other brands I've listened to.

To coin a phrase: "One glove does not fit all.."

 

[Macspur]

Personally, I'm not one for playing my music at very high levels... it's quality I'm looking for with detail and depth.

Unfortunately, not in a position to lug my equipment to the ATC dealer due to being visually impaired, so will probably arrange for home demo for PMC and ProAc, but to scratch the itch I'll take a trip to Tonbridge Wells to listen to the ATC too!

 

[Frank Harvey]

plastic penguin:Which echoes my earlier post. When I heard the SCM11s they were fantastic...I don't have any gripe towards their ability to reproduce music in a natural way. They are worthy holders of numerous awards.

Twas yourself to which I was referring PP

If one speaker was correct and everyone liked it, the speaker market wouldn't be swamped with the choice we have today.

 

[MattSPL]

Another thing to note about the PMC DB1i, they use cheap mid/bass units.

The reason i replaced my DB1i's was because both mid/bass units voice coils melted when i was playing loud music for about an hour.

Ive had numerous amplifiers and speakers over the years and have always enjoyed playing loud. I have also always been careful and have Never blown a speaker before this incident.

So it seems the smaller PMC drive units are not upto their job really. The TB2i having a larger version of the DB1i bass driver with the same power handling, so i wouldn't be too keen on trusting it either.

I used the ATC scm19's with the same amp, at much higher volume levels for a whole night and they performed flawlessly.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Why all this PMC bashing? First of all they use cheap mid units, now they use cheap bass units? I appreciate some people dislike some brands, and I have my own I dislike, but why are you so intent that the OP doesn't buy PMC? PMC are used in studios worldwide, just like ATC, so both ompaies have a professional pedigree.

I've heard the ATC's use cheap HF units, but I don't mention it. The important thing is the end product, not the parts with which it is comprised. The same can be said of the Mission 753's, but tell that to the God knows how many owners, and they either won't care or disagree because they love the sound of their pride and joy. It's not that the DB1i's use a cheap bass driver, it's that they use a small one. Everything has it's limitations.

Anybody using and amplifier and speakers within their limitations won't come across any issues. We've had no ATC's come back to us for repair. But then again, we've had no PMC's come back either.

 

[MattSPL]

I happen to love PMC speakers. But only their bigger ones that made them their studio name.

The IB1's i had were amazing speakers, only let down slightly by the midrange unit.
My point with the Midrange unit was in the newer range of PMC's where you pay £5500 for the PB1i. In my opinion thats a lot of money for a not so perfect midrange performance.

If you move up to the IB2i, you get PMC's own midrange dome and a stunning pair of speakers. But you pay about 9k for them so they should be good.

The DB1i's that i had failed too easily in my opinion. And on removing the mid/bass unit and seeing it had the quality of a cheapo car speaker didnt surprise me. No fancy magnet materials here to account for a small light weight construction.

 

[plastic penguin]

I think David was referring to PMCs pedigree as opposed to an individual speaker.

The OP, I believe, has mentioned that he needs to play music, in the main, at lower levels. In which case the PMCs are better than ATC this instance.