PMC DB1i to ATC SCM 11?

[Frank Harvey]

There is mileage in both amplifier and speaker recommendations.

The TB2is would be an excellent replacement to gain larger scale and improved bass/midrange over the DB1is. My only concern is whether the PM7004 would be in full control of the extra bass of the TB2is.

All too often, amplification is overlooked for bigger speakers though. As others have mentioned, it is surprising just how good a small pair of speakers sound when driven better - tighter, punchier, and if the amplifier is better quality, more transparent. Any pair of speakers can only convey the signal they are relayed.

 

[Al ears]

There is mileage in both amplifier and speaker recommendations.

The TB2is would be an excellent replacement to gain larger scale and improved bass/midrange over the DB1is. My only concern is whether the PM7004 would be in full control of the extra bass of the TB2is.

All too often, amplification is overlooked for bigger speakers though. As others have mentioned, it is surprising just how good a small pair of speakers sound when driven better - tighter, punchier, and if the amplifier is better quality, more transparent. Any pair of speakers can only convey the signal they are relayed.

Whilst | agree with your comments the OP's words were 'too small for my room'.

An amp upgrade will indeed firm up and control the speaker better but it will still not make it sound like a bigger speaker in my opinion. The only way to do this is to actually buy a bigger speaker.

The suggestion that the OP needs to change his amp as well is, financially, not really a good suggestion

 

[whiskywheels]

Thanks all, interesting and helpful comments.

I think for now my next step will be to keep an eye out for some TB2i, but we'll see.........it's only once or twice a year I find myself thinking I need bigger speakers after all.

 

[davedotco]

Thanks all, interesting and helpful comments.

I think for now my next step will be to keep an eye out for some TB2i, but we'll see.........it's only once or twice a year I find myself thinking I need bigger speakers after all.

For once.

I am not that familiar with the different PMC models, but those who are seem to suggest that the TB2i is the logical progression from what you have, I would take their advice in this instance, at least to find out if they work in your room.

I do think that the room matching is very important here, again not being specific, but as the speaker gets bigger and more potent the positioning and room response becomes more and more important. Get it wrong and the balance that you have now could be lost.

Hence the suggestion of an amp upgrade, a little bit more of everything without changing the balance you currently have. As always with hi-fi, try as many options as you can, a pair of TB2i could be bought used and moved on if they do not suit, if you buy (and sell) at the right price it may not cost too much.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

The op should also give the twenty 21's at least a demo,If his speakers need to be sited close to a wall (as maybe the case,having the db1i's.)I'm not too clued up on the tb2i's and not sure whether they need some space behind them.Also the twenty 21's will take and appreciate an amp upgrade in the future..

 

[Infiniteloop]

Oh ok then i'll mention the A-word.

DM5's beats the sh-t sorry hell out of any of those speakers/Amps.

Groovy.

Jesus... When does guerrilla marketing actually start to damage a brand? Must be soon... *stop*

For me, the damage is done. I don't care how great they sound, I will never own a pair on principle.

I really don't want to turn this thread into yet another AVI driven debate (it's tiresome) so if anyone feels they need to respond, you will be doing it in the knowledge that I won't respond back. I'm done.

 

[Infiniteloop]

I can understand the better amp bit, however, you are still burdened with a tiny speaker, which will have its own limitations due to cabinet size. Whereas the TB2is are bigger and better in every sense over the lovely DB1s. And they are easier to drive than the DB1 and ATCs

I am something of a 'fan' of the big amplifier, small speaker setup.

I am talking generically here, I have no experience of the specific models in question, but I am often very taken with this sort of combination.

Of course it depends a lot on space and what you can accomodate, clearly a better, more potent speaker will make life a lot easier for the amplifier but that only works if they can be accomodated and suit the room.

I know.

Although I'm not a bass preacher I do enjoy plausible scale. having heard the DB1is on a number of occasions - when I had my RS6s - the bass was very good for the size - punched way beyond their bijou dimensions. So when the TB2is came up for sale, even though I hadn't experienced the bigger siblings, it just seemed a logical step: Should have the tonal qualities of the DBs with a little extra oomph. It was a gamble that paid off, but not to the detriment of the overall ambience.

With the 6.5" bass/midrange driver (bigger than the average modern standmount), the load is easy and effortless.

Several moons ago I put a pair of Q Acoustic 2020i's on the end of my Bryston 28BSST2's. Wow, how good did they sound. I posted my surprise on here I recall.

Further proof that Amps matter. *yes3*

 

[Infiniteloop]

I can understand the better amp bit, however, you are still burdened with a tiny speaker, which will have its own limitations due to cabinet size. Whereas the TB2is are bigger and better in every sense over the lovely DB1s. And they are easier to drive than the DB1 and ATCs

I am something of a 'fan' of the big amplifier, small speaker setup.

I am talking generically here, I have no experience of the specific models in question, but I am often very taken with this sort of combination.

Of course it depends a lot on space and what you can accomodate, clearly a better, more potent speaker will make life a lot easier for the amplifier but that only works if they can be accomodated and suit the room.

Agreed. 200 watts of Devialet into my small but perfectly formed Sonus Fabers really makes them sing!

(Then again, so does 24 single ended watts of 845 valves, depending on what I'm listening to.....).

 

[Frank Harvey]

Whilst | agree with your comments the OP's words were 'too small for my room'.

An amp upgrade will indeed firm up and control the speaker better but it will still not make it sound like a bigger speaker in my opinion. The only way to do this is to actually buy a bigger speaker.

The suggestion that the OP needs to change his amp as well is, financially, not really a good suggestion

My suggestion wasn't to change both - just that both suggestions are valid.

 

[Al ears]

Whilst | agree with your comments the OP's words were 'too small for my room'.

An amp upgrade will indeed firm up and control the speaker better but it will still not make it sound like a bigger speaker in my opinion. The only way to do this is to actually buy a bigger speaker.

The suggestion that the OP needs to change his amp as well is, financially, not really a good suggestion

My suggestion wasn't to change both - just that both suggestions are valid.

My apologies then David, I read that wrong.

Yes both are valid but its going to cost the OP a lot more to improve the amp I feel and would suggest that, logically, the speaker change needs to come first.

 

[plastic penguin]

There is mileage in both amplifier and speaker recommendations.

The TB2is would be an excellent replacement to gain larger scale and improved bass/midrange over the DB1is. My only concern is whether the PM7004 would be in full control of the extra bass of the TB2is.

All too often, amplification is overlooked for bigger speakers though. As others have mentioned, it is surprising just how good a small pair of speakers sound when driven better - tighter, punchier, and if the amplifier is better quality, more transparent. Any pair of speakers can only convey the signal they are relayed.

Is it a 7004 or is it a Pearl lite? he mentioned both in his opening post. I was basing the TB2i on the Pearl.

He wrote: "My amp's a Marantz Pearl-Lite PM7004".

 

[Al ears]

There is mileage in both amplifier and speaker recommendations.

The TB2is would be an excellent replacement to gain larger scale and improved bass/midrange over the DB1is. My only concern is whether the PM7004 would be in full control of the extra bass of the TB2is.

All too often, amplification is overlooked for bigger speakers though. As others have mentioned, it is surprising just how good a small pair of speakers sound when driven better - tighter, punchier, and if the amplifier is better quality, more transparent. Any pair of speakers can only convey the signal they are relayed.

Is it a 7004 or is it a Pearl lite? he mentioned both in his opening post. I was basing the TB2i on the Pearl.

He wrote: "My amp's a Marantz Pearl-Lite PM7004".

It was a bit confusing but whatever, the Pearl Lite was simply a pimped 7004. Same power output etc. jusyt copper-based with some uprated caps and other components if I recall correctly. Either would drive the TB2 well.

 

[plastic penguin]

There is mileage in both amplifier and speaker recommendations.

The TB2is would be an excellent replacement to gain larger scale and improved bass/midrange over the DB1is. My only concern is whether the PM7004 would be in full control of the extra bass of the TB2is.

All too often, amplification is overlooked for bigger speakers though. As others have mentioned, it is surprising just how good a small pair of speakers sound when driven better - tighter, punchier, and if the amplifier is better quality, more transparent. Any pair of speakers can only convey the signal they are relayed.

Is it a 7004 or is it a Pearl lite? he mentioned both in his opening post. I was basing the TB2i on the Pearl.

He wrote: "My amp's a Marantz Pearl-Lite PM7004".

It was a bit confusing but whatever, the Pearl Lite was simply a pimped 7004. Same power output etc. jusyt copper-based with some uprated caps and other components if I recall correctly. Either would drive the TB2 well.

TBVH, Al, until I checked on the tinternet this morning I didn't even know there is/was a 7004 amp. I know there was a network streamer NA-7004, hence why I was just basing my views on the Pearl...

 

[Al ears]

There is mileage in both amplifier and speaker recommendations.

The TB2is would be an excellent replacement to gain larger scale and improved bass/midrange over the DB1is. My only concern is whether the PM7004 would be in full control of the extra bass of the TB2is.

All too often, amplification is overlooked for bigger speakers though. As others have mentioned, it is surprising just how good a small pair of speakers sound when driven better - tighter, punchier, and if the amplifier is better quality, more transparent. Any pair of speakers can only convey the signal they are relayed.

Is it a 7004 or is it a Pearl lite? he mentioned both in his opening post. I was basing the TB2i on the Pearl.

He wrote: "My amp's a Marantz Pearl-Lite PM7004".

It was a bit confusing but whatever, the Pearl Lite was simply a pimped 7004. Same power output etc. jusyt copper-based with some uprated caps and other components if I recall correctly. Either would drive the TB2 well.

TBVH, Al, until I checked on the tinternet this morning I didn't even know there is/was a 7004 amp. I know there was a network streamer NA-7004, hence why I was just basing my views on the Pearl...

It is a bit confusing their numbering system. I was going to buy a Pearl Lite until I realised what it was, couldn't afford the Pearl.

 

[whiskywheels]

So, here we are, some time later, and..............I've had another attack of speaker psychosis!

This time, having been content with the Pearl lite + DB1i set up for around a year (daily listening), I suddenly felt that the scale, soundstage, space, and room filling ability of the PMCs wasn't up to par. Attach the old 685s again, and as usual delighted by the presentation and scale, despite a slight lack of detail and a tendency towards a harsh treble at times. Usually this only lasts for a few days before I go back to the PMCs, but this time, over a few weeks, each time I put the PMCs back on I think, no, the 685s are just more enjoyable. So the 685s have stayed for 6 weeks now, but..................

...........just thinking maybe I could find something with the same big scale but also with better detail & tone! I have a difficult and non ideal speaker position, basically either side of the chimney breast in a room about 20m2, and close to the wall. So I thought I want something not too fussy about position, probably with no rear facing bass port. Hard to find, and budget wise I've thought of Focal Aria 906 through to PMC Twenty5.21. I like B&W but they no longer seem to do anything that is easy to place, or not only available in black or white!

Any suggestions or comments about my current shortlist or others to consider would be appreciated.*smile*

 

[davidf]

Despite being rear ported, Ophidian speakers aren’t particularly affected by room boundaries. Their port works quite differently to most, with very minimal airflow. Although the M Series is quite small, even the tiny Minimo can surprisingly fill larger spaces quite easily.

Although they don’t produce standmounts, I was going to mention Larsen, as their speakers are designed to work up against a wall, but they won’t work with a chimney between them (drivers fire upwards and inwards).

 

[Gazzip]

Revel Concerta2 M16 should also be considered. I heard them at the Windsor show last year with a Primare system in to them and I was blown away by them.

 

[nopiano]

Revel Concerta2 M16 should also be considered. I heard them at the Windsor show last year with a Primare system in to them and I was blown away by them.

I would second that, as I heard them this year and they were way better than I expected. Also, consider the Neat Iota Alpha in case the unusual format would work in your space.

The Ophidians that David mentions look interesting but I've yet to hear them. Getting good reviews though.

Did you ever audition the ATCs, I can't recall?

 

[whiskywheels]

Never did hear the ATCs. I find that it's rare to locate any dealer within 150 miles of here who ever have any item I'm interested in in stock. Unless something's available from Richer Sounds or Sevenoaks there's little alternative, especially since Weymouth HiFi & Movement Audio closed in the years following the '08 crash. So far, I can't even find any UK dealers for the Revel speakers. If I (reluctantly) decide to get some PMC Twenty5. 21s (rather too expensive), I can at least hear some at Jordan Acoustics near Bournemouth, a mere 80 mile round trip. At least they have parking, unlike Sevenoaks & Richer Sounds who, despite selling large, heavy products, seem to all be located in City centres with parking & loading restrictions or even in pedestrian precincts! It seems to always be the case that what ever I'm after is only available 'to collect in store'! *crazy*

I can find somewhere to audition Focal Arias 960, but would be interested to hear from anyone who's actually got some. I thought about the Dynaudio Emit M20, but with a rear port and comments in whf's review about placement I don't think they'd be suitable in my situation.

Thanks for the suggestions so far.

 

[Macspur]

Never did hear the ATCs. I find that it's rare to locate any dealer within 150 miles of here who ever have any item I'm interested in in stock. Unless something's available from Richer Sounds or Sevenoaks there's little alternative, especially since Weymouth HiFi & Movement Audio closed in the years following the '08 crash. So far, I can't even find any UK dealers for the Revel speakers. If I (reluctantly) decide to get some PMC Twenty5. 21s (rather too expensive), I can at least hear some at Jordan Acoustics near Bournemouth, a mere 80 mile round trip. At least they have parking, unlike Sevenoaks & Richer Sounds who, despite selling large, heavy products, seem to all be located in City centres with parking & loading restrictions or even in pedestrian precincts! It seems to always be the case that what ever I'm after is only available 'to collect in store'! *crazy*

I can find somewhere to audition Focal Arias 960, but would be interested to hear from anyone who's actually got some. I thought about the Dynaudio Emit M20, but with a rear port and comments in whf's review about placement I don't think they'd be suitable in my situation.

Thanks for the suggestions so far.

There's a Revel dealer in Pool called Stone AudioThe Axium Centre, Dorchester Road, Lytchett Minster
Poole, Dorset, ENGLAND, BH16 6FE.
Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

 

[whiskywheels]

So there is! I know the place well. How did you find it?? I looked on the Revel website and it shows no UK dealers, just a distributor.

I might arrange a demo this week. I'm sure it'll sound great in their listening room, but with it's rear mounted port, & whf's review comment to 'place the speakers at least 30cm from a rear wall' doesn't inspire confidence that it'll be suitable for my placement situation. There seem to be so many speakers these days that want to be placed in the middle of a room, away from corners, walls, dogs, etc.!

Thanks for the 'heads up'.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_100004211376004]

Looks like it might be back to the pmc drawing board then...lol.my little 21's are 7-10 cm's from the wall and in fact need the reinforcement from the wall for them to work properly (decent bass).In free space they just sound a bit lost ime.I actually couldn't quite believe the difference....I thought I'd got a new set of speakers when I moved them.lol.

 

[Macspur]

So there is! I know the place well. How did you find it?? I looked on the Revel website and it shows no UK dealers, just a distributor.

I might arrange a demo this week. I'm sure it'll sound great in their listening room, but with it's rear mounted port, & whf's review comment to 'place the speakers at least 30cm from a rear wall' doesn't inspire confidence that it'll be suitable for my placement situation. There seem to be so many speakers these days that want to be placed in the middle of a room, away from corners, walls, dogs, etc.!

Thanks for the 'heads up'.

No probs, just googled Revel dealers in UK.

Don't be too put off by what's written about speakers needing such and such space, I had that with Harbeth and their fine. the proof is how they sound in your room, so with that in mind, I'd ask if they would allow a home demo.

It's certainly a brand that interests me.

Mac

www.realmusicnet.wordpress.com

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I’d concentrate on much better amplification. The problems I think you describe is you aren’t possibly sure which is best, because I doubt your amp is getting any where near like the best out of respective speakers.

 

[whiskywheels]

I’d concentrate on much better amplification. The problems I think you describe is you aren’t possibly sure which is best, because I doubt your amp is getting any where near like the best out of respective speakers.

Intriguing idea. Hadn't thought of it myself, as over the last 8 years have had CA650A, NAD can't remember, and Rotel RA1520. The Marantz delivered a better sound all round, but didn't alter the recessed PMCs or the greater scale of the 685s. I'm still with the 685s, and after all these years I've taken against the PMCs!