Please help... having problems with muddy overwhelming bass

[newlash09]

In my previous house, my home theatre setup was in my 11x17 ft living room. With the speakers firing down across the length of the room, and the subwoofer to the left of my sofa. My setup was the marantz SR6011 with Qacoustics Q7000i. And everything sounded lovely both for music and movies.

I have now moved to my new place, and have the same kit, mounted in exactly the same size room 11x17ft. But I now have the speakers firing down the shorter length of the room, with my subwoofer now located to my right. The only addition i have made here are 4 inceiling yamaha speakers. And the sound quality has seriously degraded.

I've done the calibration again and again, and checked the distances & levels and found them to be quite accurate. All the small satellites are crossed over at 100hz as per audessey, and it is the same as in my last house. But muddy bass dominates the whole sound stage.

In subwoofer controls , it shows cross over LFE as 100 hz. I have reduced the bass gain by 2.5db, but still everything is muddy.

I have to mention that after i plugged in the marantz SR6011 in my new place, it underwent a firmware update. Even when i play music in stereo mode, the previous magic is gone. Replacing the front 2 satellites with the Qacoustic concept 40's improves the clarity, and reduces the muddiness, but these floor standers start booming, even when they are placed almost a foot from the back wall. And i cant increase this any further. And muddiness is still there, though reduced than before. The floor standers are crossed over at 60hz, and all other satellites at 100 hz.

When i play 'Giorgio by moroder' from daft punk, at the 5 minute mark where deep bass comes in the track, the sub woofer vibrates audibly. This was'nt the case in my previous house. The subwoofer is level set, and the vibration continues even when i place my hand on the sub.

Now iam really lost , how to proceed further and identify the problem. Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

 

[bigboss]

Which subwoofer have you got?

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Hi Newlash

whats your music sound like without using subwoofer connected ? You need to take a breath and start with basic L+R first

now I know you have a home cinema and you listen to music with the PMCs and your stereo amplifier so is the problem just with the home cinema or with the hifi as well ?

 

[newlash09]

The sub woofer is the Qacoustics 7070si. It comes bundled with the Q7000i 5.1 package.

 

[newlash09]

Hi Newlash

whats your music sound like without using subwoofer connected ? You need to take a breath and start with basic L+R first

now I know you have a home cinema and you listen to music with the PMCs and your stereo amplifier so is the problem just with the home cinema or with the hifi as well ?

The stereo and Home theatre are actually seperate. The stereo is fine, actually better than before in its new room

But the home theatre just sounds awful. You are right, I should have actually tried disconnecting the sub to find the source of the muddiness. Will do it in the morning once my family is awake

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Ok great I am glad the music is ok and now I no we are just taking about home cinema

in the morning disconnect the subwoofer try it without test the sound just playing something and only have your centre channel connected and L+ Rs forget the rest of the speakers for now and then see if your still getting a muddy with 3 channels working

And let us no what happens

as long as you have not set the subwoofer up to manage the bass but at the same time you have got the Av doing the same job as they will conflict each other because normally you let the Av do the subwoofer management .

check all wiring on all speakers and all connections

 

[newlash09]

Will disconnect the sub in the morning, and will play tracks without re-calibrating the system again without the sub. Will get back with my findings. Thanks a ton

 

[Leeps]

Bass can be a problem when you have effectively reduced the possible wavelength bass frequencies can travel before encountering a wall, by firing across the shorter dimension. As you have a sub/satellite system, the frequencies emitted by the satellites may get away with it, but as soon as the sub is engaged you're in trouble. There are some interesting videos on YouTube about bass frequencies and how long bass frequencies are.

One common problem is that bass can collect and increase at the rear of the room. So in your previous place, was your seating position on the back wall or slightly forward of it? It could be that your previous home had the same problems, but you just weren't sat where the bass nodes were in the room.

Presumably (& quite understandably) as your seating position is opposite the front 3 speakers that fire across the shorter dimension, you're likely seated close to the rear wall? When listening and encountering muddy bass that you describe, stand up or just move forward a few feet. Does the muddy bass persist? If it seems to be better, it could be this problem of bass collecting at the rear wall. If so, your best bet would be room treatment, but be careful doing this. Many room treatments only dampen high frequencies rather than addressing bass. Unfortunately bass treatments tend to be thicker (so poorer WAF). You'll find some helpful advice on the GIK Acoustics website. (No affiliations).

Another thing you could try is moving your sub to very different places in the room and just experimenting.

I have a similarly awkward room acoustically, so I know my room is a big factor in the overall sound. I feel your pain!

 

[davidf]

One common problem is that bass can collect and increase at the rear of the room. So in your previous place, was your seating position on the back wall or slightly forward of it? It could be that your previous home had the same problems, but you just weren't sat where the bass nodes were in the room.!

But if he’s run the auto set up and calibration as he has, he would’ve done that in the listening position, so even though his new seating position might cause some extra issues, the calibration should be reducing or cancelling the issue.

 

[ellisdj]

Different room dimensions? Different seating position makes a big difference to bass

Different room construction makes a big difference to bass?

Even if you eq your sub - you may have excessive bass decay in the room "ringing" and that is what your hearing - the bass lingering in the room - building up in the corners where the sub is probably - bear in mind there are a lot of corners in a room.

11 x 17 is a very similar size room to mine and its a nasty set of dimensions - I get very excessive bass in 50 - 60hz regions as well.

An Alternative - is the auto eq is trying to fix a bass null and pushing the sub too hard in certain lower freq - I dont know if that is likely but jus thought of it

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

The wavelength at 100 Hertz is 11.3 feet, or just about the width of your room. So you've probably inadvertently set up your AVR crossover to produce resonance.

Try tinkering with the crossover frequency and set it to 80 or 120 Hertz instead and go from there.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

I would of personally put all of Newlash speakers set at 80hz but my thinking was he may of setup his subwoofer and the Av to do the same job so there was a bit of conflicting going on there .

So sometimes it’s best to test without the subwoofer being involved for now so he can hear what the sounds doing and then check all of his connections and settings .

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

^ Agreed. Just adding a bit of science.

However...

It's my understanding that when you set a cutoff frequency on the AVR all frequencies below that are, arm, cut off from the main speakers and sent to the sub. Some sort of standing wave or room harmonic is therefore my prime suspect....

One other option would be to move the sub into a corner and have it firing diagonally across the room. Lower frequencies are supposed repeat supposed to be less direction-discernable
...

 

[newlash09]

Thanks to all of you for your apt guidance. The problem was being caused by two factors i think. One iam certain of - my small satellite center speaker and the second was the sub's cross over frequency.

After disconnecting the sub as advised I found the sound to be clearer without the muddiness. But with very low bass as expected. Then I switched over to DTS neural X mode and found the muddiness coming back again. On closer inspection, I found that in DTS neural X mode, all the vocals and bass were being directed to the centre channel. And the small satellite was unable to cope with this. And was audibly distorting. So will get the matching concept centre speaker now. Had ordered it a week back, only to cancel it again as I really wanted to use just the satellites.

And after the above experiment, when I switched on the sub woofer again. The muddiness was again there. Then I reduced the cross over for the sub and all speakers including the concept 40 floor standers to 80hz as suggested. And this has really fixed everything.

In the above process I also moved the sub closer to the rear wall by 4 inches. I don't know if it is the change in crossover or the shift in the sub's position. But the sub's vibration is gone now. Played the same daft punk several times, as I couldn't believe the lack of muddiness and vibration with the above changes.

On further experimenting I also found that changing audyssey setting from 'reference' to 'flat' has reduced the bloated bass and has greatly increased clarity. IAM glad to report that the previous magic is back

Thanks you all for your help. Much appreciated.

 

[newlash09]

Thanks blacksabbath 25, sir benedict, leeps, Mr.David, big boss and ellisdj.

I felt I should share that in my small room of 11x17ft. Even both the above settings improved clarity. I always kept the audyssey setting on reference, and changed it now to flat.

I also used to keep the dynamic EQ off. Switching it on and setting the limit at 15db has also given some sonic gains. Even the M-dax settings changed the sound audibly. After lots of experimenting by ear, and tweaking every setting possible over two entire days , iam glad I have arrived at my previous sound. And with audyssey flat setting on, my front floor standers are not booming any more. I don't know how audyssey does it. But Very glad for now

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Glad you got if fixed and many thanks for reporting back.

Not only were "the team" able to help but your reply will, hopefully, help others with a similar problem. Which is really what boards like this are all about.

 

[newlash09]

Very happy we have a great team here

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Glad you have got your self sorted out but have you tried setting the crossover at 80hz through your Av for all speakers that way the subwoofer is doing all of the low frequencies for bass

 

[Vladimir]

*drinks*

 

[newlash09]

Glad you have got your self sorted out but have you tried setting the crossover at 80hz through your Av for all speakers that way the subwoofer is doing all of the low frequencies for bass 

I now have all speakers running at a 80 Hz crossover. And the sub in bypass mode. And everything sounds so lovely. Now I wish my main stereo sounded this good. But it is lacking room correction. That will be my next port of call. A mini DSP or Dirac live

 

[newlash09]

*drinks*

I have posted a similar thread in the hifi section for my main Stero system. Iam amazed at what audyssey can accomplish. And IAM hoping that, similar magic could unravel through my main music system too. Iam broadly happy with the PMC's, but at higher volumes the bass gets too dominating. The amp might not be the problem, as it is still at 10 to 11 o'clock position. I guess it is the room . So was wondering, if minidsp or Dirac could rule that out too

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Is your room for music the same size as your old house ?

 

[newlash09]

Is your room for music the same size as your old house ?

Iam using the dining room for the music. And it is almost the same width as my previous house at 11ft. However, I have shifted the speakers to the opposite side of the dining, which is actually the intersection of a 'L' shaped open plan between living and dining. So presently the speakers are effectively firing down a 11x22 ft room. With no walls on the right and a break fast bar on the left side.

 

[Blacksabbath25]

Yep that sounds ok to me Newlash I used to live in a house with a L shape living room and they can be a pain depending on size of the room but I used to have my hifi a long the longest wall as I had no choice back then .

but glad your sorted

 

[newlash09]

The improvement in sound has been big enough to junk any plans of changing the speaker or the amp. But iam still trying to refine things at my seating position. For some reason, as long as I fire the speakers straight ahead, all is fine even at silly volumes. But the moment I toe them in to fire at a position 50cms behind by head ( as recommended by PMC ) . My ears start aching even at moderate volumes.

I sit in a large leather arm chair with a ottoman. And the wall about 80 CMS behind the front baffle of the speakers is completely mirrored. So iam not sure what is happening here. Is it the mirrors or the leather chair engulfing my head for almost a foot on either sides.

Anyways I have removed the toe in, as I don't find much of a difference with it anyways. The PMC's dispersion is really great. But still wonder, what is making my ears ache