Philips claim 1080p?

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Anonymous

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Seems like this was a good time to bring this to your attention at What Hifi, and I appreciate your intention to interogate Philips at the convention.

I am expecting a response similar to that already quoted, however I can but hope for more credit for my intelligence.

At the moment I feel well and truly duped and regretting my first major Philips AV purchase - a situation that can be easily reversed.
 

Clare Newsome

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Here we go with the response from Philips;

"Philips response to WHAT HI FI? SOUND AND VISION ON 1080P ISSUE

Thanks for the feedback on this issue which we are continuing to monitor regarding the Philips 42PFL9632D sold in 2007.

Firstly to be clear, and as stated by Clare Newsome, the 'Full HD 1080p' is used by Philips and other manufactures to describe a full HD panel resolution of 1920x1080. In addition to Philips PQ enhancement features, this offers a clear step up in overall performance compared to "HD Ready "sets of the same size.

Full HD 1080p does not refer to the televisions input signal capabilities or to internal picture processing enhancement algorithms that might be applied to a specific source or input resolution. Whilst we take note of the claim made that models downscale 1080p, this is in fact not the case and in reality a 1920x1080 resolution image is always presented to the Full HD 1080 display.

EICTA standards 'HD Ready', 'HDTV', 'HDTV 1080p', 'HD Ready 1080p' and their associated logos refer to specific requirements with respect to the input capabilities, the signal processing path and the display panel itself. Philips strictly follows these EICTA requirements by indicating the appropriate EICTA logo on the television.

These models referred to exceed EICTA "HD Ready" technical requirements" and offer excellent performance with a wide range of content, including 24p.

Reports of an on-screen flicker could be caused by consumers' Blu-Ray players/gaming consoles. In which case, the TV needs to be configured via the connections menu, ensuring that Blu-Ray is selected from the relevant HDMI input. The 24 frames mode will eliminate any on-screen flicker whilst the input remains 1080p.

We will review our spec sheets to ensure clearer communication in future and are happy to investigate individual cases. We would ask any consumer still experiencing an issue to contact us directly on 0870 900 9070."
 
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Anonymous

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people have been selecting the right input on HDMI when playing their xbox 360's and the lag is still really poor..i would love to know the real responses time of this lcd not the time philips say it is 3ms can you measure that sort of info WHT team..
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Anonymous

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It would appear the set takes a 1080p signal, drops it to 1080i for processing then upscale sit to 1080p, with the resultant quality of picture being that of a 1080i set. there is pixelation around objects and gradation of colour over large colour areas just as with 1080i.

Does this mean every 1080p tv does the same as this, I am just about to purchase a Panasonic TH46pz81 plasma, just might have to hang on tad
 
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Anonymous

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bulloy:
Does this mean every 1080p tv does the same as this

Nope.
 
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Anonymous

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bulloy:It would appear the set takes a 1080p signal, drops it to 1080i for processing then upscale sit to 1080p, with the resultant quality of picture being that of a 1080i set. there is pixelation around objects and gradation of colour over large colour areas just as with 1080i. Does this mean every 1080p tv does the same as this, I am just about to purchase a Panasonic TH46pz81 plasma, just might have to hang on tadThere is no such thing as a 1080i set. The physical set is either 1080p (1920x1080 physical pixels) or 720p (physical pixels vary, but typically 1368X768 pixels for LCDs). Either set has to accept a 1080i input signal (part of the HD Ready definition) and may accept a 1080p signal

The Panny does it's processing directly on the 1080p signal and even converts a 1080i signal to 1080p before processing it. So no need to delay the purchase.
 

Clare Newsome

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ocyrus:people have been selecting the right input on HDMI when playing their xbox 360's and the lag is still really poor..i would love to know the real responses time of this lcd not the time philips say it is 3ms can you measure that sort of info WHT team..
emotion-42.gif


To that level of detail? Not right now - maybe our neighbours at the National Physical Laboratory can help us out.

But seriously, no LCD we've yet seen has the response time of a plasma, which just one reason why all our TV Best Buys/Award winners in the sizes you can buy plasma at are...plasmas, despite LCDs from Sony and Philips getting markedly better in this year's ranges.
 
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Anonymous

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thanx for the reply clare.

i know someone who has this lcd and it is good i mean really good..as the post above your reply is 1080i 1080p all come into play when you buy the 1080 panel "ie" pixel count..so it's the tv's software that does all the playing or is it just the best you can get at the moment 1080 panel HD ready...
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Clare Newsome

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ocyrus:people have been selecting the right input on HDMI when playing their xbox 360's and the lag is still really poor.

Just realised what could help here - turn off the fancy picture processing. That's not a Philips-specific issue, but one we suggest in all our 'How To' TV guides.
 
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Anonymous

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Clare Newsome:

Here we go with the response from Philips;

"Philips response to WHAT HI FI? SOUND AND VISION ON 1080P ISSUE

Thanks for the feedback on this issue which we are continuing to monitor regarding the Philips 42PFL9632D sold in 2007.

Firstly to be clear, and as stated by Clare Newsome, the 'Full HD 1080p' is used by Philips and other manufactures to describe a full HD panel resolution of 1920x1080. In addition to Philips PQ enhancement features, this offers a clear step up in overall performance compared to "HD Ready "sets of the same size.

Full HD 1080p does not refer to the televisions input signal capabilities or to internal picture processing enhancement algorithms that might be applied to a specific source or input resolution. Whilst we take note of the claim made that models downscale 1080p, this is in fact not the case and in reality a 1920x1080 resolution image is always presented to the Full HD 1080 display.

EICTA standards 'HD Ready', 'HDTV', 'HDTV 1080p', 'HD Ready 1080p' and their associated logos refer to specific requirements with respect to the input capabilities, the signal processing path and the display panel itself. Philips strictly follows these EICTA requirements by indicating the appropriate EICTA logo on the television.

These models referred to exceed EICTA "HD Ready" technical requirements" and offer excellent performance with a wide range of content, including 24p.

Reports of an on-screen flicker could be caused by consumers' Blu-Ray players/gaming consoles. In which case, the TV needs to be configured via the connections menu, ensuring that Blu-Ray is selected from the relevant HDMI input. The 24 frames mode will eliminate any on-screen flicker whilst the input remains 1080p.

We will review our spec sheets to ensure clearer communication in future and are happy to investigate individual cases. We would ask any consumer still experiencing an issue to contact us directly on 0870 900 9070."

a carefully worded reply, but not as careful as we might have expected. Best we interpret it paragraph at a time:

Para 1: Philips 1080p is better than 'HD Ready', but not in a way we can quantify technically, just better due to some Philips 'enhancements' [the enhancements that Clare and the reviews suggest may be deselected to prevent some problems users are having]

Para 2: This set does not downgrade the input, it displays 1080p. When Philips claimed the set to be 'Full HD' they did not mean it had the ability to process the 1080p input to the level it was being received. [so after claiming the set does not reprocess the input, why the qualification?] The picture displays the pixels of Full HD [the claim is it does not display all of the pixels to the resolution of the input - this is the real challenge, and is not addressed despite the rhetoric]

Para 3: A qualification of 'HD Ready' specifications [This set had no claim to being simply 'HD Ready'. The set has 'Full HD' plastered all over the screen, and the spec is machine gunned with so many mentions of Full HD there is little doubt of its claimed capabilities. (as previously quoted in this thread). Why then a mention of 'HD Ready'? I purchased this set deliberately to avoid the HD Ready tag. HD Ready is not in the price bracket this set was placed.]

Para 4: Exceeds HD Ready requirements. [as well it should as it is not claimed to be HD Ready. not anywhere. read your own spec Philips]

Para 5: Something to do with gaming [I am not a 'gamer', and have made no such claims. Philips are answering another claim here, proof that this is not the first incidence of criticism of the set. This set pixelates on terrestrial transmissions. note to Philips: re-read the initial post]. "the input remains 1080p" [what of the output?]

Para 6: I will be calling.
 
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Anonymous

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Called Philips UK and very much had to force the point that this television is not performing as the specification and product sheet claim. I was immediately told to take this up with the retailer. This would be the retailer that sold the set entirely honestly with a specification gleaned from the manufacturer i.e. them. Not being willing to take nothing to the retailer (internet based), I attempted to allow Philips to fill the silences that they are trained to leave. I am very aware of this technique - one more usually reserved for situations of real conflict - whereby, in the face of no response, I am supposed to feel obligated to wind up the conversation. Resisting that natural urge, I quoted the specification, paying particular attention to the processing rather than the output.

After the statements such as "displays a 1080p picture", by calmly pointing out that this was not the contention, in the end I got the (unexpected) admission I was looking for: "(this set) downscales to 1080i then upscales to 1080p". I was then told I could not have this in writing, but this was what "we have been told to say". Let's be clear that this is a contradiction to the above claim that there is no downscaling.

The next suggestion I was not ready for - being told to write in with my evidence. The Admin dept do not work to email I was told, which is as good a fob-off as you can get in this day and age, particularly when the spec of the chipset is a pdf file that could be attached to a message which would take me only 10mins to compose. To be told to print it off and then send it to an obscure address that will then forward it to Head Office, is plain and simply being given the run-around. Philips do not need evidence, they know their own products (we can assume this) and know exactly the issue I am speaking of. The chap on the phone also said he was not given information such as what the processing chip was. On a technical helpline I refuse to believe this to be the truth.

that all aside, the product brochure claims "1080p dot by dot". the admission of the interlacing is a contradictory statement to this claim and makes Philips liable to legal claim under the Trade Descriptions Act.

I hope neutral readers take note of the customer service experienced so far. If you want help with the majority of Philips' products you call an 0207 prefix, but for this, we get the penalising 0870. Your problem, you pay, is the message there. After denying the specification is not misleading, then admitting that 1080i is involved in the processing and not mentioned in any literature, there is a case to answer, yet in their wisdom Philips then refuse to deal with that issue face to face. Writing to a general address, with the onus of proof placed on the consumer, is customer avoidance, and an insult to my careful approach and my intelligence.

With this evidence unearthed I would be interested in hearing some support from What HiFi who were duped into reviewing the set as a 1080p throughput, presenting the product in the same way as the retailer, then given a dishonest answer to the question posed.
 

Alsone

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Clare Newsome:

So, if what you're asserting is true, Philips hasn't broken any rules - as there are none to break - but maybe guilty of not communicating its specs clearly enough, so that you could make a more informed choice. Let's see what they have to say.

You sure about that Clare - maybe something somebody should be raising with Trading Standards is a complaint under:

The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading regulations 2008 which came into force in March 2008.

Very few traders seem to know of these regulations and yet they outlaw 31 practices that were previously legal and impose a general duty not to trade unfairly that captures virtually everything not included in the specific offenses. It also covers ommissions, so not mentioning something that might influence a consumer in their buying decision is also an offence.

There are specific offences relating to misdescribing goods and goods not meeting all of their stated specifications.

The penalties are CRIMINAL: UNLIMITED FINE and / or up to 2 YEARS IN PRISON for any company / trader breaking the Regulations.

Good guide here:

http://www.derbyshire.gov.uk/Images/ft23_tcm2-219616.pdf
 

Clare Newsome

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fringeidiot:
With this evidence unearthed I would be interested in hearing some support from What HiFi who were duped into reviewing the set as a 1080p throughput, presenting the product in the same way as the retailer, then given a dishonest answer to the question posed.

I'll go back to Philips again and ask for further clarification.
 
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Anonymous

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aN 0870 NUMBER CAN BE CHEAPER THAN AN 01 OR 02 NUMBER - IT'S A SERVICE YOU BUY WHERE THE RATE IS SET BY YOURSELF, WITH ANY SHORTFALL IN COST MADE UP BY YOURSELF TO bt ETC
 
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Anonymous

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Clare Newsome: What I will point out in the meantime is that there is no true standard for 'Full HD', unlike there is for HD Ready. It's not much more than a marketing term.

Whilst I fit in time to compose my communiqu‚, I came across What HiFi's definition of Full HD on P36 Feb08 Jargon Buster

Full HD: This badge shows the set can show a full, native 1080p picture, which is ideal if you're planning to buy a Blu-ray or HD DVD disc player
 
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Anonymous

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hi fringeidiot, have you seen the review of the philips on HDTVtest they have proven the 1080p downscale to 1080i then backup to 1080p is true in a very technical in depth review..plus the chip is slower than philips say the 3ms lag problem..i do hope what hifi and clare can ask for some more info into this problem as you guys have some industry clout and you can make or brake any piece of AV equipment..
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ear

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Yep.that review certainly makes me feel that it would be pointless to buy a "full hd" set that doesn't behave properly with blu-ray.very disappointing indeed.
 
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Anonymous

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I am an owner of the 52PFL9632D and whilst it is a fantastic set with 576p , 720p & 1080i , it certainly has its flaws with 1080p.

Namely the 1080p > 1080i > 1080p issue , which can be clearly seen with the untrained eye with line flickering on the PS3 @ 1080p (Blu-Ray Mode) and one of the Philips fixes to this is to turn the display into PC Mode , which reduces the flickering (turns off all processing HDNM , 100Hz Clear LCD etc) but then shows tearing in this mode and even then Philips are telling you to turn off the main selling features of these displays to make it look better ( the fact that it can process but NOT accept a true 1080p source).

I am really dissapointed that i paid so much for what is in effect a large HIGH END 1080i display with fancy stickers.

Over on another site a select few have exchanged their displays for newer models (namely the 9603/9703) which don't suffer the same issues (different chip), but it has been a painstaking affair of countless emails to find you must write an official (registered) letter of complaint before you will even get a reply.

Unfortunately i don't think i will get anywhere as i've been told to contact my retailer by Philips as i purchased my set almost a year ago and i don't think i'll even bother contacting the retailer at this stage.

It will most definately be the last Philips display i purchase.
 
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Anonymous

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hi willie, sorry to hear the phillips problems with such a great lcd..so what you are saying is really if the set is less than 12months and you get on to phillips they might give in and replace the set for one of there new models is this right..also can you tell me what you have done "ie" in complaint to philips..regards
 
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Anonymous

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ocyrus:also has anybody tryed the firmware update for this set..
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Yes mine is fully up to date with the latest firmware.

Key point , none of the main issues described here can be resolved by firmware update as it's basically limitations within the processing chip.

On your above point , yes there have been many users over on another forum that have had their 9632 replaced/exchanged for the newer 9603/9703 models.

Some within 6 months and some after 6 months of purchase.

If you need some further information you can pm me and i can provide you with links that will basically help you understand what this set does with 1080p
 
A

Anonymous

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Update

on 18thSep, I sent Philips a 17page letter of complaint detailing their incorrect specs and the changes they subsequently made, as well as evidence from the online technical reviews of the upscaling. They signed for it on the 19th, and I heard nothing.

called today, and they claim to have no record of my letter.

I have now faxed in the 17pages and await a reply.

they drop the ball on this again, and I am heading for Trading Standards, Which and Watchdog.
 

Clare Newsome

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On the subject of unanswered missives - Fringeidiot, I sent you a personal email weeks ago (10th September at 11.52am, to be precise) offering to put you in direct contact with someone at Philips. You didn't reply.

please let me know (via Contact Us link here) if it's OK for me to give our technical contacts at Philips your details (and which the best address to get you at would be). Things can get lost way too easily in 'customer service' departments,.
 

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