Philips 47PFL7404 motion-blur problems - HELP, please!

[6th.replicant]

Recently bought a Philips 47PFL7404.

For the most part, the PQ is excellent - great detail, lush colours, good contrast levels & decent(ish) black/dark scenes + 3D-like faces & vehicles (when watching BDs).

BUT, the 47PFL7404 seems to have major problems with motion, especially when the camera is panning or zooming to follow an object. And the object doesn't have to be fast-moving...

For example, during Casino Royale (on BD), when Bond is walking towards the casino, his outline has a 'watery'/shimmering aura. (Anyone else remember those old Ready Brek 'central heating for kids' TV ads..?)

And if the subject/object is fast-moving - eg the bike vs scooter chase in Bourne 3 - then the whole image becomes very, very watery. It's almost enough to make you feel queasy.

Have set up using THX (from Wall.E BD), though must confess I've added a smidge more colour, contrast & brightness. Also tried turning off the myriad pic enhancements - no change. My HDMIs are all QED Performance.

I'm aware of the plasma vs LCD issues re motion, but the 47PFL7404 really seems to be backward step.

Do any other 47PFL7404 owners have motion-blur problems?

Ta.

 

[Andy Clough]

I don't have the motion problems you mention on my Philips 42PFL9664, and if it helps here are the settings I use on that:

Contrast: 90

Brightness: 48

Colour: 50

Sharpness: 3

Noise reduction: Off

Tint: Normal

Within Perfect Pixel HD sub-menu

Perfect Natural Motion: Minimum

200Hz Clear LCD: On

Advanced Sharpness: Off

Dynamic Contrast: Off

Dynamic Backlight: Best pic

MPEG artefact reduction: Off

Colour Enhancement: Off

Light sensor: Off

You might also want to take a look at this thread.

 

[cayorob]

I've just got the 42" version of this set. I find the natural motion very strange, sometimes false but thats probably because i'm not used to it coming from a Plasma Panasonic.

Try the same scenes in "cinema mode", that turns most of the processing off, including the HD Natural Motion.

With so many settings it'll take an age to get right.

 

[Anonymous]

I have the 52" version and I am affraid you are going to have to make a trade off, as the HD motion engine in the 7404 is not as good as the 9664 range.

after trying many different settings and discs etc, the two options are:

HD motion: On (min) with 100Hz off, looks really sharp, but the motion takes a bit of getting used too, and there is a slight Halo around larger objects.

OR

HD Motion: Off, no problems with motion or a halo, but doesn't look as sharp.

Hope this helps,

Mark

 

[Anonymous]

6th replicant - I have this TV and used Andy's settings. I haven't watched any BD's yet but I've watched lots of sport and I can't fault it.

Sorry, that's probably not what you wanted to hear but as you asked.............

 

[6th.replicant]

Thanks Andy Clough, Cayorob, Markjaspi & Wovian for your input - much appreciated.

Tried Philips's 'Cinema Mode' (which turns all pic enhancements off) & that does reduce the halo effect, but the pic is very bleak/washed-out & VERY soft - it makes Blu-ray look like 560p DVD.

Also, when the Dynamic Backlight is off (as in 'Cinema Mode'), then there're pale grey/white, mottled 'splodges' in the corners of the screen when the shot is black or a night scene.

So, tried the following:

Contrast: 95

Brightness: 55

Colour: 57

Sharpness: 4

Noise reduction: Off

Tint: Normal

Within Pixel Precise HD sub-menu:

Perfect Natural Motion: Off

100Hz Clear LCD: Off

Advanced Sharpness: On

Dynamic Contrast: Off

Dynamic Backlight: Best pic

MPEG artefact reduction: Off

Colour Enhancement: Off

Light sensor: Off

The above settings have reduced the halo-effect to barely noticeable, but the image is softer overall - although, not as bad as when Advanced Sharpness is off.

And now motion is simply blurred. For example, in Bourne Ultimatum's (BD) opening scene, when Bourne is hobbling across the bridge in Moscow, Bourne appears to be 'all rubbery/wobbly & fluid-like'.

Getting a sense of deja vu - the 47PFL7404's motion-handling now seems similar to the 26in LCD TV I had in 2003 (which was also a Philips, but can't remember model).

And I'm rather concerned re the pale grey/white 'splodges' in the corners, which are still present, albeit reduced with the above settings.

Sorry WHF?S&V, but IMHO the 47PFL7404 should be 4-star rated, not 5.

Or perhaps my TV is faulty?

 

[Anonymous]

Definately keep the advanced sharpness Off and the backlight to best picture.

I have the HDE blu ray set up disc and anything above 2 on the sharpness introduces noise to the picture, and the advanced sharpness was awful.

Sharpess was brought in the relieve problems in NTSC standard def signals I believe, so HD material should not need it.

I tried the setting above (except sharpness at 2), first impression where good. will have to watch some more material though.

With your backlight off, I assume you can see your CFL tubes?

 

[6th.replicant]

markjaspi:
Definately keep the advanced sharpness Off and the backlight to best picture.

I have the HDE blu ray set up disc and anything above 2 on the sharpness introduces noise to the picture, and the advanced sharpness was awful...
Again, ta for taking time to post your advice/views.

Curious, because when I have Advanced Sharpness set to 'on', it does indeed make the pic sharper.
markjaspi:...With your backlight off, I assume you can see your CFL tubes?

Are you saying that seeing the CFL tubes is the norm with LCD TVs, or indicative of a fault?

Ta.

 

[6th.replicant]

Wovian:
6th replicant - I have this TV and used Andy's settings. I haven't watched any BD's yet but I've watched lots of sport and I can't fault it.

Sorry, that's probably not what you wanted to hear but as you asked.............

Would be good to get your feedback when you've watched some BDs, please.

Do you have Bourne Ultimatum on BD - methinks that it's the yardstick re motion?

What type of sports are you watching? Can't say that I'm holding out much hope for the 47PFL7404's motion-handling when viewing F1...

 

[Anonymous]

Basically LCD TV's require a backlighting to illuminate the pixels, the 7404 uses CCFL, which is basically Flo. tubes at the sides of the screen.

LED lit TV's use either edge mounted or full leds to light the panel, some times with the more expensive RGB leds.

(of course Plasma is another technology totally).

When you can see patching in the corners, this is refered to as clouding, something Sony have been suffering with over the past couple of years.

Not heard too many reports of philips sets with this problem, but I assume when you turn the processing of the CCFL off, then the set can not control the tubes as well as when it is on.

The Advanced sharpness may look better on SD but I doubt it will with HD footage.

The general opinion is that with philips TVs you may want to save a couple of different presets for different sources, i.e HD material, S.D material, sports etc.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm hoping to see some BD's this weekend - on the basis the kids get tired and go to bed before I do so that I can watch in peace - so I'll let you know.

The curious thing is I watch lots of rugby and football on Sky HD and did so for two weeks before I had time to tweak any settings at all and I thought the picture was still brilliant. I also watched a couple of Star Wars DVD's and thought it was a major improvement on my W series Bravia.

I think it upscales SD through the HDMI connection OK too (even though I bought a Sony STR-DA 3500 ES amp to do the upscaling largely on the WHF review stating that it upscales and then found it does not).

I agree with Mark and Andy that you should keep the sharpness down to 2 or lower and keep well away from the advanced sharpness.

Have you seen the official Philips response to Andy in respect to settings? It covered a 9664 set but largely applies to this set too. I don't know how to insert links but its on a thread entitled "Philips 9664 problem"

 

[Anonymous]

Did you try to watch SD material , especially sports?

Do you observe the same effect or something different?

May be it make sense to try to look at different sources and see whether the problem still persists when you change them.

 

[6th.replicant]

hazarin:
Did you try to watch SD material , especially sports?

Do you observe the same effect or something different?

May be it make sense to try to look at different sources and see whether the problem still persists when you change them.

Motion-blur occurs with BDs, DVDs & TV (Humax Freeview), although, curiously, not with PS3 games. Well, at least not with Fallout 3 & Assassin's Creed 2.

However, with PS3 games there isn't an actual camera panning or zooming while tracking a moving object/person/animal. Hmm.

In which case, I'll check out some animation BDs/DVDs - Wall.E & Jungle Book - & report back.

 

[Anonymous]

You are probably quite aware that described problem was already discussed in quite a detail for 9664. Do I understand your TV set-up with Humax correctly, that you are have an aerial satellite antenna, which goes through Humax set-top box? Or is it like digital TV, where you receive you digital signal through cable, convert it in the set-top box , which goes to your 7404? Cause here in Switzerland we have mostly the latter set-up where we get digital signals through cabels and somehow I did not really mentioned any motion blur problems for Philips sets ( 9 , 8 and 7 series) in any shop that I visisted. Some of them were playing fast moving demo material. And I mostly compare sets on SD Eurosport. Probably it also helped that the majority of sports are showed on SD where, you can not expect razor-sharp images by definition. But in any case suppose you have an option to compare the 7404 performance for the same material in SD and HD, do you see the same blur?

P.S. I just compared 40Z5500 vs 47PFL8404 ( the same as 7404 only with ambilight and a bit better speakers) on Eurosport SD alpine skiing. If any 47 inch Philips looked sharper on SD than 40 inch Sony. No motion blurring on Philips was visible. This puzzles me a bit.

 

[6th.replicant]

Transpires that my observation re a lack of the 'watery halo' with PS3 games is irrelevant - the 47PFL7404's games setting has Perfect Natural Motion set to 'off'.

However, both Wall.E & Jungle Book have no 'watery halo' with Perfect Natural Motion set at 'minimum'.

Yet, all 'live' action images - via Freeview TV (aerial), BDs & DVDs - where a panning shot tracks an object-in-motion is present, has the 'watery halo' when Perfect Natural Motion is 'on'.

So, it seems that with the 47PFL7404 there're 2 options: 1), have Perfect Natural Motion 'on' for a sharp, detailed picture picture with 3D-like faces etc but the 'watery halo' will always be present during 'panning motion'; or 2), have Perfect Natural Motion 'off' to lose the 'watery halo', but also sacrifice much detail, sharpness & 3D effect.

Erm, methinks that's what you call a flawed design/concept?

Also, the 'clouding' in the screen's corners is very annoying, especially during dark or night-set scenes.

Once again I humbly suggest that the 47PFL7404 is a 4-star TV, not a 5-star.