Philips 46PFL9704H v. Pioneer Kuros, any comments ?

[Anonymous]

My earlier comment about EISA was that their recommendations (subject to influence), in the end, worked surprisingly well and have generally been widely confirmed by practice. I found it interesting that once the products (e.g. the Philips TV set or the LG Blue-Ray 390) have eventually been made available on the UK market that their initial (?) reception (including the What HiFi reviews) became equally strong. So it appears that despite various well justified reservations the EISA list was/is not bad at all.

It is a different question whether the Kuro technology is still superior to Philips, and it would be most interesting to read owners/users opinions on this very important matter.

 

[Tom Moreno]

hnery:
It is a different question whether the Kuro technology is still superior to Philips, and it would be most interesting to read owners/users opinions on this very important matter.

The problem with your whole premise is that you are intimating that you are seeking opinions from people who own these sets to make unbiased comparisons- where the only people likely to give an unbiased opinion on the matter would be someone who owns both sets and the likelihood of this with these particular sets is extremely slim. The only opinions you are going to find here are people who have bought one or the other and will be adamant that their chosen telly box is the best one that has ever had the fortune of gracing not only their living room, but the entire planet, and anyone who doesn't think so is just a bit weird. Good luck in this most fruitful of exercises I am sure you will get a more balanced opinion from someone else here rather than the What Hifi review that you've already quoted.

 

[Anonymous]

OK. However, there is obviously nothing improper to start topics like these (just a few examples taken from the top of the current list):

Arcam AVR600 or Pioneer SC-LX82?

Pioneer 120 or sony bdp-s360 Bluray?

DENON AVR2310 or ONKYO TXNR807

Blu-Ray PAL vs Blu-Ray NTSC

Yamaha RX-V565 or Sony STR-DH800 ... and so on.

Using your argument, there would not be too many people who own, for example, both RX-V565 and STR-DH800, so the question should not be asked ?

I strongly suspect that it is simply politically incorrect (I agree with your sociological analysis) to ask too specific questions about top of the line TVs and Kuros in particular. Also, so far I have not got a single answer from a Pioneer owner. It is still too early in the UK. In consequence, all that I got were delicate reprimands from the Kuro lobby.

 

[Deleted member 2457]

hnery:

OK. However, there is obviously nothing improper to start topics like these (just a few examples taken from the top of the current list):

Pioneer 120 or sony bdp-s360 Bluray?

DENON AVR2310 or ONKYO TXNR807

Blu-Ray PAL vs Blu-Ray NTSC

Yamaha RX-V565 or Sony STR-DH800 ... and so on.

Using your argument, there would not be too many people who own, for example, both RX-V565 and STR-DH800, so the question should not be asked ?

I strongly suspect that it is simply politically incorrect (I agree with your sociological analysis) to ask too specific questions about top of the line TVs and Kuros in particular. Also, so far I have not got a single answer from a Pioneer owner. It is still too early in the UK. In consequence, all that I got were delicate reprimands from the Kuro lobby.

I think it is too soon, the shops I have looked at don't have it in stock yet.

 

[Anonymous]

I got my Philips delivered at the end of October. Nearly 4 months ago ! So it might soon become outdated

 

[TKratz]

hnery:

Andrew: It is your colleagues from the What Hi-Fi that found the Philips so good and not just EISA, numerous Continental reviewers, Continental fora gurus, specialist dealers, home cinema enthusiasts and ... me

Yes, the Philips certainly received some good reviews, but the enthusiasts and 'gurus' (whatever that definition might imply) I know still refer to Kuro as the reference TV. And I fully agree in that view. I should probably mention, that I do not own a Pioneer TV, so I wouldn't consider myself biased in any way. Kuro is still the TV's to beat. Actually a bit problematic one year after they discontinued the production.

And then about the Philips... As I have also mentioned before I don't understand the fuss. This TV has some flaws which in my opinion brings it far from any reference standard. This is also reflected in several of the more technical reviews out there. Just to mention some of the issues:

- Way too high colour temperature creating a 'blueish' glow to the picture (this can be adjusted to some extend, but as always on Philips this is very tricky).

- Suboptimal gamma curve resulting in poor shadow details in dark scenes (it doesn't help much a TV has excellent black levels if shadow details are missing, something many fail to consider when buying a TV).

- Light points on a dark background tends to create halo's (a general problem on most LED backlight screens).

 

[Anonymous]

That's settled it then.

 

[Anonymous]

TKratz:

- Way too high colour temperature creating a 'blueish' glow to the picture (this can be adjusted to some extend, but as always on Philips this is very tricky).

- Suboptimal gamma curve resulting in poor shadow details in dark scenes (it doesn't help much a TV has excellent black levels if shadow details are missing, something many fail to consider when buying a TV).

- Light points on a dark background tends to create halo's (a general problem on most LED backlight screens).

Many thanks for the list of possible weaknesses of the Philips set. I will try to check them against the performance of the set I own, perhaps will also carefully try to adjust it and see what happens. By the way, Continental reviewers and actual owners also indicate point 1, but I have not yet read anything about points 2 and 3. Contrary, the Continetal feeling is the the main strength of the set actually lies in absence of point 3 flaws.

Obviously, there must be a reference against which the new technologies (in particular) could be compared. The Kuros are admirable for this purpose. I would wish the Kuro engine would be continued/developed further and not just put aside by Pioneer. The current marketing (e.g. the California newest regulations for TVs) pushes, for example, the requirement of low power consumption and here the Kuros, sadly, are not too strong. Same with "Internet connectivity" what I, personnaly, regard as a more or less useless gimmick.

Thanks again.

 

[Tom Moreno]

hnery:

Obviously, there must be a reference against which the new technologies (in particular) could be compared. The Kuros are admirable for this purpose. I would wish the Kuro engine would be continued/developed further and not just put aside by Pioneer. The current marketing (e.g. the California newest regulations for TVs) pushes, for example, the requirement of low power consumption and here the Kuros, sadly, are not too strong. Same with "Internet connectivity" what I, personnaly, regard as a more or less useless gimmick.

Thanks again.

On this point there are many here who are eagerly awaiting Panasonic's 2010 line of TVs. It has been much publicised that when Pioneer killed off their plasma TV division, Panasonic hired their Kuro engineers, and the top of the line Panasonic plasmas this year are due to be the first outing for the fruits of their labours. The promises are that we will finally see the next evolution of what was the Kuro and the first set to truly dethrone them. We can only hope that they live up to these promises.

 

[Anonymous]

Just a relatively minor but at the same time important, in my own experience, point. Ambilight mark 3 on the Philips is genuinly stunning and customers go for it alone. I would bet that the revived Panasonic Kuro 2010 would have a low power consumption (difficult with plasmas), will be wafer thin, will have something like Ambilight (now a synonym of marketing delight) and will also sport ... the You Tube connectivity

 

[bigboss]

Kuro was in the process of developing a 10th generation Kuro. This was the press release from Pioneer:

PIONEER CONTINUES TO SURPASS BLACK LEVEL PERFORMANCE WITH NEW LINE OF 2008 KURO TELEVISIONS

Pioneer's 2008 KURO Displays Boast Industry Leading Black Levels and Richer Color to Create an Unmatched Emotional Entertainment Experience

NEW YORK (May 7, 2008) - Pioneer Electronics (USA) Inc. today announces a new line of KURO plasma displays featuring black levels five times deeper than the previous award-winning KURO. Widely recognized for its commitment to creating entertainment experiences that transcend the ordinary, Pioneer takes yet another groundbreaking step towards HDTV perfection with this new line of 2008 KURO flat panel televisions.

"The game-changing performance our KURO displays brought to the marke last year revitalized the landscape of high end home theater in a way that was never thought possible. The introduction of this year's KURO televisions is another step toward our ultimate goal of pure, absolute black that will fulfill the true potential and all the promise of high-definition entertainment," said Paul Meyhoefer, vice president of display marketing and product planning, home entertainment business solutions group, Pioneer Electronics (USA) Inc. "Our goal is to listen and fully understand the minds of creative professionals and their craft. When great entertainment comes together something truly magical happens, the boundaries of technology fall away and you're left with a truly unique experience. This is the hidden key to the power that KURO possesses and ensures the integrity of the artist's vision is never compromised."

Pioneer's Philosophy is Absolute Black
The philosophy behind Pioneer's Project KURO and the driving force is to achieve absolute, pure black. True, deep black creates a picture unlike any other that possesses finer detail, greater contrast, and more importantly, the ability to produce deeper colors not achievable before. This year, Pioneer pushes ever closer to their goal of absolute black by further reducing the idle luminance and improving black levels five times over the previous 2007 KURO models. This has enabled Pioneer to accurately reproduce deeper colors within the high-definition color spectrum and outdistance other display manufacturers.

Pioneer understands that color is a vital tool that creative professionals - from visual artists to film and television producers - use freely to evoke emotion and arouse our senses. With varying techniques from the most subtle to intense manipulation of color, artists can induce a very specific feeling within their audience. That feeling can be lost or diluted if a television cannot produce true, pure deep blacks and in turn reproduce an accurate color spectrum. The end result cannot be imitated and is beyond compare.

Evoking Emotion through Sound
Pioneer has incorporated six unique sound settings associated with each of the KURO video settings - standard, movie, sports, performance, game, dynamic - to ensure a customized listening experience that is specifically in tune with the type of programming on-screen.

The television employs an auto volume stabilization feature that further
controls the television's volume level when switching between different types of programming; including network shows and commercials, broadcast channels or different input types to insure each experience remains true and distinct from one another.

Pioneer has included the most advanced SRS© WOW HD technology in the new KURO models by incorporating SRS Definition, a high frequency enhancement that provides finer control and adjustment to manage low, mid and high audio frequencies. The result adds to the virtual surround sound effect and produces clearer, more precise audio in mid to high frequency levels.

A Truly Intelligent Television
The KURO employs a unique automatic adjustment feature called Optimum Mode that simultaneously monitors video and room light conditions. The KURO then seamlessly adjusts the picture and sound settings by even the slightest variation to provide an experience specially tailored to each type of programming. The result is movies that reproduce a film-like quality, sports that feel like you're on the field and crisp clear narration from newscasts that focus on the reporter, not ambient background noise.

While many consumers will rely on this unique feature, the 2008 KURO models still have the ability to switch between six finely tuned pre-set modes including: standard, movie, sports, performance, game, dynamic for consumers who prefer the ability to manually adjust their KURO television according to their particular taste.

Enhanced Consumer Convenience Features
The introduction of the 2008 KURO 1080p line creates the perfect synergy between film, video and high quality sound, helping blend these into a new world of seeing and hearing like never before. Pioneer has built a reputation for providing best-in-class products that evoke emotion and surpass typical high- quality sight and sound specifications, adding enhanced features such as these to the 2008 KURO line:

Pioneer KURO televisions are now only 3.7 Inches thick, reduced by nearly 20 percent
New remote control and redesigned high definition graphic user interface for ease-of-use and seamless integration with other a/v equipment
Networked Home Media Gallery for playback of digital assets such as HD movie, music and photos from a PC or via USB
Pioneer KURO televisions are DLNA compatible and Windows PlaysForSureT compatible

 

[Tom Moreno]

bigboss:
Kuro was in the process of developing a 10th generation Kuro.

They actually exhibited prototypes of these at a trade show shortly before nixing the program. I remember seeing photos were they had the 9th gen Kuro next to the 10th gen prototype in a darkened room displaying a black screen. The 9 was the dark shade that we all know and appreciate but you couldn't actually see an image on the 10, meaning it was no brighter than the darkened room. Shame they never brought them out. Obviously Pioneer would still retain the rights to the patented tech in those screens and the likelihood that Panny has gotten their hands on them is quite low, but Panny did go and hire the Pioneers engineers that developed them and it would be interesting to see what the end result will be. The fact that the sets will be 3d is of little consequence compared to this, although I am liking the prospect that these new Panny sets will be Skype compatible. We have a little boy and with our family all overseas in Spain, Italy, the US and Australia we use Skype very heavily and having it built into the living room TV would be so unbelievably convenient that it could be the selling point that gets me the upgrade go ahead from the boss.