One subwoofer maybe better than two !

[jase fox]

I just recently put a post up "my sub died on me" i've been using two subs for years now and it has sounded fantastic however, i've been doing some demoing today with certain bluray movies with just the one sub and i must say to my surprise i think it may have sounded better with the one.

Even though the bass was obviously decreased, it seemed to sound more controlled and not to intrusive maybe even slightly tighter. Also i noticed the clarity improved over the overall soundstage, seperation was more clear.

So, i'm feeling now that maybe having two in my room might just be swamping the sound abit? Anybody else experienced similar results?

 

[CnoEvil]

Jase - this is what I've found.

I prefer to take the budget that I would have spent on two cheaper subs, and spend it on one dearer one (a bit like my view on bi-wiring). The quality and depth of bass is usually superior. I also like the sub to be sealed and have a decent EQ.

My current favorites are the Velodyne SPL Ultra range and the Paradigm Seismic 110.

Hope this helps

Cno

 

[Jammoe]

Based on the amount of time i spent finding the correct positioning / setup for one sub, just thinking about running a pair would wake me up in the night in cold sweats!

 

[jase fox]

Jase - this is what I've found. I prefer to take the budget that I would have spent on two cheaper subs, and spend it on one dearer one (a bit like my view on bi-wiring). The quality and depth of bass is usually superior. I also like the sub to be sealed and have a decent EQ. My current favorites are the Velodyne SPL Ultra range and the Paradigm Seismic 110. Hope this helps Cno

It's not just me then CnoEvil?

Did you also find the overall soundstage improved? Clarity, better seperation etc?

 

[jase fox]

Based on the amount of time i spent finding the correct positioning / setup for one sub, just thinking about running a pair would wake me up in the night in cold sweats!

Ye take it from me Jammoe it is a pain finding the sweet spots ask my other half lol

 

[MattSPL]

Hi Jase

It sounds like you may be having phase and timing issues.
It is difficult enough to get one sub to match a pair of speakers.

If you have a sealed sub and sealed box speakers, your job is much simpler.
It becomes more difficult if you have ported loudspeakers, and even worse if the sub is ported too. Each driver and port can all have slightly varying phase response.
Blocking the ports can help get around this issue if necessary.

Most modern active subs use electronic EQ to gain deep bass from a small enclosure. This causes Group delay measured in milli seconds.

To give you an idea, my sub has a delay of 8.5ms. This means, when used with passive speakers, the subs bass will in theory be 8.5ms behind the main speakers.
To counter this delay, you must move the sub closer to the listening position. Around 1ft per milli second.

All of this could be whats causing you the problem, and lack of focus. Leading edges of bass notes and decay will be smudged by phase and group delay.

I hope that made sense. Its just the jist of some information ive read.
I can email you more details if you like.

Cheers
Matt

 

[CnoEvil]

Jase - this is what I've found. I prefer to take the budget that I would have spent on two cheaper subs, and spend it on one dearer one (a bit like my view on bi-wiring). The quality and depth of bass is usually superior. I also like the sub to be sealed and have a decent EQ. My current favorites are the Velodyne SPL Ultra range and the Paradigm Seismic 110. Hope this helps Cno

It's not just me then CnoEvil?

Did you also find the overall soundstage improved? Clarity, better seperation etc?

No, it's not just you.

For AV, I like my sub set up so it subtly integrates with the speakers, without drawing attention to itself....until it needs to. For two channel, it should just sound like your speakers go very deep... not that you are using a sub.....often needs a different setting (or pre-set) from AV.

I like the sub to be fast, punchy, deep and play tunes, so it's possible to follow a bassline (notes start/stop quickly and and change pitch).

If this is mostly achieved, then soundstage is maintained along with the clarity, and the separation is not ruined.

To get all of these things in a sub is expensive. If a compromise has to be made, I would rather have a smaller sub, that gives away a little in how low it goes, than have a large one that goes really low with greater slam, at the expense of everything else.

If the sub has EQ, you can bung it nearly anywhere, and it will sort itself out. You just need to EQ the sub before doing the EQ on your amp.

Sorry if all this is old news to you, but it is probably worth repeating.

Some people just use their subs for AV and want as much "welly" as they can get for their money which is the other approach.

Cno

 

[jase fox]

Hi Jase

It sounds like you may be having phase and timing issues.
It is difficult enough to get one sub to match a pair of speakers.

If you have a sealed sub and sealed box speakers, your job is much simpler.
It becomes more difficult if you have ported loudspeakers, and even worse if the sub is ported too. Each driver and port can all have slightly varying phase response.
Blocking the ports can help get around this issue if necessary.

Most modern active subs use electronic EQ to gain deep bass from a small enclosure. This causes Group delay measured in milli seconds.

To give you an idea, my sub has a delay of 8.5ms. This means, when used with passive speakers, the subs bass will in theory be 8.5ms behind the main speakers.
To counter this delay, you must move the sub closer to the listening position. Around 1ft per milli second.

All of this could be whats causing you the problem, and lack of focus. Leading edges of bass notes and decay will be smudged by phase and group delay.

I hope that made sense. Its just the jist of some information ive read.
I can email you more details if you like.

Cheers
Matt

Very insightful Matt, thankyou.

I know it's a fairly complicated affair setting up two subs, ha

And an Email would be most appreciated thanks.

How can i give you my address?

 

[jase fox]

Jase - this is what I've found. I prefer to take the budget that I would have spent on two cheaper subs, and spend it on one dearer one (a bit like my view on bi-wiring). The quality and depth of bass is usually superior. I also like the sub to be sealed and have a decent EQ. My current favorites are the Velodyne SPL Ultra range and the Paradigm Seismic 110. Hope this helps Cno

It's not just me then CnoEvil?

Did you also find the overall soundstage improved? Clarity, better seperation etc?

No, it's not just you. For AV, I like my sub set up so it subtly integrates with the speakers, without drawing attention to itself....until it needs to. For two channel, it should just sound like your speakers go very deep... not that you are using a sub.....often needs a different setting (or pre-set) from AV. I like the sub to be fast, punchy, deep and play tunes, so it's possible to follow a bassline (notes start/stop quickly and and change pitch). If this is mostly achieved, then soundstage is maintained along with the clarity, and the separation is not ruined. To get all of these things in a sub is expensive. If a compromise has to be made, I would rather have a smaller sub, that gives away a little in how low it goes, than have a large one that goes really low with greater slam, at the expense of everything else. If the sub has EQ, you can bung it nearly anywhere, and it will sort itself out. You just need to EQ the sub before doing the EQ on your amp. Sorry if all this is old news to you, but it is probably worth repeating. Some people just use their subs for AV and want as much "welly" as they can get for their money which is the other approach. Cno

Everything you've described here is what i feel i'm getting now and thanks for your replies CnoEvil insightful like Matts.

Cheers

 

[jase fox]

FYI Matt my subs are the REL Q100E (14YR OLD MODEL NOW)

And my main speakers are B&W DM602 series 3

 

[MattSPL]

Hi Jase

Not sure what the best way to exchange emails is. We've no pm's

 

[jase fox]

Hi Jase

Not sure what the best way to exchange emails is. We've no pm's

It's inconvenient not having pm's.

The moderators may know?

 

[MattSPL]

Pm's are very handy for sure.

We'll see if the mods have any idea's.

Cheers
Matt

 

[jase fox]

Ye i agree Matt they are handy.

Mind you i use a different email address than the one i registered here with.

 

[super]

I think you should seriously check out the anti-mode 8033, it transformed the sound of my sub to the best sound where you sit and yes i do use two subs.