Oh s@@@! What have I done?

[plastic penguin]

ditch the Leema and buy a proper amp (hint: Electrocompaniet). *dirol*

Like a distorted Roksan Kandy K2 BT?

The K2 is the most rounded off amp I've heard around that price. By your claims yesterday about Class A offering less distortion, the Kandy is, therefore, hidiously distorted.

 

[Vladimir]

Bitte, let us carry on with ze ZDP earing und azesment.

 

[iQ Speakers]

Vlad, i dont think making statements like that, or indeed PP baiting does your reputation on hear any good, and i assume you care by your numerous, mostly useful posts. I expect the owners of the very well respected Electro EMC1-UP would bring to task.

 

[iQ Speakers]

BTW, I'm sticking to PPs rules not to talk measurements and 'specs'. I'm just poking him about the Leema because it makes him growl. *pardon*

Well stop it you know its to easy! I think its all to easy when say Porsche made the Boxter/Cayman to say ye but its not a real Porsche. Well they are and in someways better. Its the same with the Prelude line from Electro. I was however a little taken aback when i saw the inside of the P1 not alot in there! Manufactures have to make money and if that means mass production and SMD in order to bring a product to a price point so be it. (Arcam have been doing it for years) Electro would not want to risk diluting or jeopardizing there hard won and justified reputation.

 

[Vladimir]

BTW, I'm sticking to PPs rules not to talk measurements and 'specs'. I'm just poking him about the Leema because it makes him growl. *pardon*

Well stop it you know its to easy! I think its all to easy when say Porsche made the Boxter/Cayman to say ye but its not a real Porsche. Well they are and in someways better. Its the same with the Prelude line from Electro. I was however a little taken aback when i saw the inside of the P1 not alot in there! Manufactures have to make money and if that means mass production and SMD in order to bring a product to a price point so be it. (Arcam have been doing it for years) Electro would not want to risk diluting or jeopardizing there hard won and justified reputation.

I don't even think they are making any decent money off of it. It's just there to fill in the range because it is a company with high reputation that doesn't want to be called a one trick pony. They want to cater a full menu for their clientele, thus the space station amazing EMC 1 UP.

What is inside the PC-1 might be all that a CDP needs to sound as best as the technology can do. More chips, less discrete components and thats how much is left to put in a 430mm box.

3kg PC-1 vs. 20kg EMC 1UP. Why go for the Maybach when you can buzz arround in a Fiat? Because you can afford the extra endorphins the big Merc will give you, and it has almost nothing to do with its primary frunction, going from A to B. Almost...

The problem with CDPs is on-the-fly reading. If you added antiskip option to help the CDP not skip during errors or heavy vibration, the sound was compressed (I'm not commenting if this is audible). Sony (the company who invented ESP) decided to leave out any circuitry solution and just make a 20kg player with a barrage of clever structural engineering solutions to battle the vibration issue. So did Denon, Philips, Pioneer etc. One has to ask himself if they went to all that trouble just to fill in their brochures. Not as simple or cheap as adding two binding posts and writing a marketing blob about bi-wiring.

 

[Vladimir]

I didn't by any length say EC makes bad CDPs. I'm simply addressing the psychological factor why the CDP is not speaking to PP. I don't believe it is due to a bad component or inexperienced listener (both a non issue in this situation), which I addressed early on in the thread.

In a double blind test, one will most likely not hear difference between a Hi-End Sony and the far less well built Electrocompaniet or even an LG. But oh man when you pick up that 20Kg Sony ES, with wooden sideburns, when you click the intertface and it operates flawelessly like a hi-tech robot and you stuffed your head with 10 Alexandrian libraries of praising reviews and impressive specifications and nudie photos of copper plated chasis, separated Digital and Analogue PSUs... That CDP will 'speak to you' like a horny Jessica Alba on a desert island.

^ That is how Electrocompaniet amplifiers talk to me when I see one, because it is their forte. They are simply an institution in that area. Same for Accuphase, Krell and Pass amps, or PMC and Harbeth speakers. I want to spend most of my money on an EC amp and what is little left, please let it be an EC CDP, I don't care if it's 3kg, I'm a hopeless fanboy. But if I had a serious budget for a CD source, Ken Ishiwata, please take my money!

BTW, I'm sticking to PPs rules not to talk measurements and 'specs'. I'm just poking him about the Leema because it makes him growl. *pardon*

 

[plastic penguin]

Vlad, i dont think making statements like that, or indeed PP baiting does your reputation on hear any good, and i assume you care by your numerous, mostly useful posts. I expect the owners of the very well respected Electro EMC1-UP would bring to task.

Ignore him.

FWIW, I think it is very dangerous to always recommend stuff when you have no prior experience.

 

[Electro]

PP ,

I guess this has tuned out pretty much as I expected *smile*

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/electrocompaniet-pc1

Keep using the Electro for a week or two or until you stop analyzing every piece of music you listen too , then plug the Naim back in and try it again .If you find the Naim instantly more to your liking then you know what to do.

You might find that you get used to the extra detail and larger soundstage of the Electro .

It also might be worth moving your speakers around to make the most out of the extra detail that you are now presented with . *smile*

 

[iQ Speakers]

Vlad modern companies dont make things that they dont expect to turn a buck on, tooling robotic placement of SMD components dont come cheap. Im sure this was in there plan when they bought the company from bankruptcy in 2004.

 

[Vladimir]

I'm just projecting, I supose. I do a lot of things in my line of work I'm not interested in doing just to keep the clients full portfolio with me. If I don't, someone who offers a full spectre of services will grab them. Our profit on those add-ons is insignificant but we are happy as long as it isn't a loss and keeps our clients without headaches.

There are occasional 'stray clients' that just come and ask for our secondary services on a budget, but the fact remains if they shopped arround they would have gotten a better deal and results. On a tight budget a company that specializes in those services will simply surpass our own offer.

 

[Covenanter]

I don't understand this stuff about "too much detail"! If the detail is in the music why wouldn't you want to hear it?

Chris

 

[ID.]

I don't understand this stuff about "too much detail"! If the detail is in the music why wouldn't you want to hear it?

Chris

That's always been my philosophy, although even then there is variation in presentation. Like PP with his Grados, I never really got on with my SR80i, although part of the problem is the fact that they are supra-aural, because I have more detailed cans.

 

[Vladimir]

The details extracted from a CD through an ASDA DVD player and a dCS Scarlati are equal. The tonal variations (frequency response) shouldn't be mistaken for resolution. It is 16bit and spending 50,000 quid more on a CDP wont extract 17bits. Any CDP will extract everything on the disc, to the last 1 and 0.
It doesn't matter if you drive a Ferrari or a Fiat. The speed limit is 70mph.

 

[iQ Speakers]

The problem with CDPs is on-the-fly reading. If you added antiskip option to help the CDP not skip during errors or heavy vibration, the sound was compressed (I'm not commenting if this is audible). Sony (the company who invented ESP) decided to leave out any circuitry solution and just make a 20kg player with a barrage of clever structural engineering solutions to battle the vibration issue. So did Denon, Philips, Pioneer etc. One has to ask himself if they went to all that trouble just to fill in their brochures. Not as simple or cheap as adding two binding posts and writing a marketing blob about bi-wiring.

So Vlad this statment above is irelevent then? If an Asda.... Im not having a go by the way.

0 and 1 are 0's and 1's its only when very high frequencies Mhz are deployed noise becomes a problem and a below par chip can not hadle the frequency.

But we are not taking into account a CD player is also an analog device this is the design which has the most effect and is more difficult to get right. We bang on about DAC's which cost £2-5 for a chip but they also have analog circuitry which is probally far more important at produceing a good sound.

 

[Vladimir]

The problem with CDPs is on-the-fly reading. If you added antiskip option to help the CDP not skip during errors or heavy vibration, the sound was compressed (I'm not commenting if this is audible). Sony (the company who invented ESP) decided to leave out any circuitry solution and just make a 20kg player with a barrage of clever structural engineering solutions to battle the vibration issue. So did Denon, Philips, Pioneer etc. One has to ask himself if they went to all that trouble just to fill in their brochures. Not as simple or cheap as adding two binding posts and writing a marketing blob about bi-wiring.

So Vlad this statment above is irelevent then? If an Asda.... Im not having a go by the way.

0 and 1 are 0's and 1's its only when very high frequencies Mhz are deployed noise becomes a problem and a below par chip can not hadle the frequency.

But we are not taking into account a CD player is also an analog device this is the design which has the most effect and is more difficult to get right. We bang on about DAC's which cost £2-5 for a chip but they also have analog circuitry which is probally far more important at produceing a good sound.

If the speakers are not very close to your hi-fi rack (quite a challenge in a typical Tokyo apartment) and the CDs are clean and not scratched, the ESP (if one implemented) will never kick in. An ASDA player will extract the same information as the dCS Scarlati, same 1s and 0s, same resolution and details. Now, what happens next in the analogue section of the player defines what the FR will be. Naim decided they want a rolled off FR to complement their amps. Electrocompaniet decided they want a ruller flat FR. Two manufacturers, two tonal characters. However, they both have the same resolution and details, 16 bit. Some details on the Naim will feel obscured due to the roll-off, but this doesn't mean it has less resolution.

DAC chips in CDPs have peaked decades ago and there is nothing of any significance to implement that will bring audible improvements. An old Philips TDA and new Wolfson will do the same job. Jitter is a non-issue because it is not audible. We have yet to see anyone in the world hear a difference between two 16 bit CDPs in a double blind test under ideal conditions (clean CD, no heavy vibration). Well, maybe Naim should be an exception because they never aimed at high fidelity. *secret*

 

[davedotco]

DAC chips in CDPs have peaked decades ago and there is nothing of any significance to implement that will bring audible improvements. An old Philips TDA and new Wolfson will do the same job. Jitter is a non-issue because it is not audible. We have yet to see anyone in the world hear a difference between two 16 bit CDPs in a double blind test under ideal conditions (clean CD, no heavy vibration). Well, maybe Naim should be an exception because they never aimed at high fidelity. *secret*

Some years ago I was involved in the marketing of a heavyweight (in all senses) US built CD player. The company had designed a number of filters, ranging from the quite simple to the more complex. Level matched testing showed a distinct preference for the simplest of filters (designed for flat phase response), the playback system was pretty good, it wasnt hard to hear differences between them.

This filter rolled of the hf very gently above about 10kHz, no one suggested that it sounded 'rolled off' or lacking in detail, just that it sounded 'better', 'more real' was a typical comment.

The Stereophile review gives some decent third party measurements and shows the rolloff. Interestingly, Wadia got nothing but good feedback from JA, including praise for the hf response, views slightly modified after he did the measurements.

 

[Vladimir]

What if we added noise to the low resolution image? We get the false impression of greater resolution (a sharper image).

» Low Resolution + Noise

 

[plastic penguin]

I do a lot of things in my line of work I'm not interested in doing just to keep the clients full portfolio with me. If I don't, someone who offers a full spectre of services will grab them. Our profit on those add-ons is insignificant but we are happy as long as it isn't a loss and keeps our clients without headaches.

There are occasional 'stray clients' that just come and ask for our secondary services on a budget, but the fact remains if they shopped arround they would have gotten a better deal and results. On a tight budget a company that specializes in those services will simply surpass our own offer.

Never realised gutting fish was so competitive.

 

[Vladimir]

As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words.

» Coloration

» Noise

» Resolution

Notice the image with change in the color hue towards more yellow gives the fake impression of slightly less/more resolution.

 

[Vladimir]

Never realised gutting fish was so competitive.

Oh, I get it! It's funny because it's a menial job that requires no learned skills whatsoever. Haha!

 

[drummerman]

I sense tension around here.

Isn't it my job to create such? 🙂

 

[plastic penguin]

Never realised gutting fish was so competitive.

Oh, I get it! It's funny because it's a menial job that requires no learned skills whatsoever. Haha!

Sort of, but it just reflects my corkscrew sense of humour. I was bored with reading the technical stuff. Geddit now?

"Never realised gutting fish was so competitive" I nicked this line from one of my scripts a few years back.

 

[CnoEvil]

I sense tension around here.

Isn't it my job to create such? 🙂

You've been usurped....it happens sometimes. *smile*

 

[Vladimir]

I've outsarcasmed 3 Brits. Yay me.

 

[CnoEvil]

I've outsarcasmed 3 Brits. Yay me.

Only three?!