New vinyls and noise issues

stereoman

Well-known member
Mar 22, 2016
146
14
10,595
Visit site
Hello,
recently I came across many posts (on different forums) regarding the vinyl noise of the current pressings. Can some vinyl users explain please whether it's really true and what things the issue (noise) really depends on. Are new majority vinyls really of worse quality ?

P.S. Some users suggest cleaning the new vinyls before first spinning.
 

luckylion100

New member
Nov 6, 2011
72
0
0
Visit site
the amount of crud that most new vinyl comes with. You'd think before final packing and shipping there'd be a cleaning process but sadly no. Some labels are worse than others but I generally do a wet clean on any new purchases I make.

When I have spun new vinyl without a wet clean it generally takes a couple of listens for my needle to pick up and remove the crap that they've been shipped with. This in itself is a good DIY cleaning method,
 

stereoman

Well-known member
Mar 22, 2016
146
14
10,595
Visit site
luckylion100 said:
the amount of crud that most new vinyl comes with. You'd think before final packing and shipping there'd be a cleaning process but sadly no. Some labels are worse than others but I generally do a wet clean on any new purchases I make.

When I have spun new vinyl without a wet clean it generally takes a couple of listens for my needle to pick up and remove the crap that they've been shipped with. This in itself is a good DIY cleaning method,

Ok , but is that the cause of the noise ? ( I do not mean crackling , I mean noise ). Many people claim the new vinyls are pressed with significant more noise than old ones. So , does it go away after the wash or badly pressed vinyl will always have noise. Or is this dependant on the TT ?
 

stereoman

Well-known member
Mar 22, 2016
146
14
10,595
Visit site
Al ears said:
stereoman said:
Hello,recently I came across many posts (on different forums) regarding the vinyl noise of the current pressings. Can some vinyl users explain please whether it's really true and what things the issue (noise) really depends on. Are new majority vinyls really of worse quality ?

P.S. Some users suggest cleaning the new vinyls before first spinning.

Are they (new vinyl....not vinyls) of worse quality.... I'd have to say NO.

There are exceptions of course but I've been collecting for a very long time and there have been periods where every LP issued was pretty dire in quality. This is not the case with modern vinyl, the majority of which is now of a heavier weight than was the norm.

Of course the weight has little to do with the ultimate sound quality but it does mean less warping.

Yes, I clean all of my LP's prior to cleaning both new and second-hand, its just a habit I got into.

As has already been stated the stylus itself is a very effective cleaning device so I would suggest you get something to clean it and also a good carbon-fibre record cleaning brush.

Thanx ,that calmed my curiosity in this aspect ;)
 
stereoman said:
Hello,recently I came across many posts (on different forums) regarding the vinyl noise of the current pressings. Can some vinyl users explain please whether it's really true and what things the issue (noise) really depends on. Are new majority vinyls really of worse quality ?

P.S. Some users suggest cleaning the new vinyls before first spinning.

Are they (new vinyl....not vinyls) of worse quality.... I'd have to say NO.

There are exceptions of course but I've been collecting for a very long time and there have been periods where every LP issued was pretty dire in quality. This is not the case with modern vinyl, the majority of which is now of a heavier weight than was the norm.

Of course the weight has little to do with the ultimate sound quality but it does mean less warping.

Yes, I clean all of my LP's prior to playing, both new and second-hand, its just a habit I got into.

As has already been stated the stylus itself is a very effective cleaning device so I would suggest you get something to clean it and also a good carbon-fibre record cleaning brush.
 

thescarletpronster

New member
Nov 17, 2012
10
0
0
Visit site
stereoman said:
recently I came across many posts (on different forums) regarding the vinyl noise of the current pressings.

There are many posts on this forum discussing the noise (or not) or current pressings. I haven't got time to look for them now, but there were some interesting discussions. In my opinion, quality is hugely variable, with many shocking pressings (or reasonable pressings which were not looked after at the factory so have been scratched by grit) - far more than I ever experienced in earlier years - but some hugely impressive pressings as well, most of which come from three plants on the continent: MPO (France), GZ Digital Media (Czech Republic) and, most of all, Optimal Media GmbH.
 

thescarletpronster

New member
Nov 17, 2012
10
0
0
Visit site
stereoman said:
Ok , but is that the cause of the noise ? ( I do not mean crackling , I mean noise ).

I've found a lot of new records - primarily those pressed in USA - have traces of the release agent, which helps the record be separated from the press, left on the surface. This can look like a 'wash' on the surface, and creates a lot of noise. It can be very difficult to get rid of. I've managed to get rid of the majority of it on some discs with a few hot washes (using my RCM with hot fluid), but others refuse to budge. I don't know whether that's the cause of noise in your case.
 

Daz B

New member
Mar 10, 2010
4
0
0
Visit site
Sometimes the crackling noise is static build up when removing from the record sleeve. Cleaning the record before playing should remove static. Using a antistatic brush can reduce or help eliminate static and dust.
 

MajorFubar

New member
Mar 3, 2010
690
6
0
Visit site
Mostly I stopped buying truly new records because the grooves seem to retain crud at nothing and the vinyl itself becomes noticeably more noisy after just a few plays. Conversely I can dig out something from the 50s and 60s on Polydor/Mercury/Audio Fidelity/Regal etc that my dad hammered on God knows what 'hifi' for a decade or more before I was born and it still sounds like it was pressed yesterday. What's changed I don't know.
 

luckylion100

New member
Nov 6, 2011
72
0
0
Visit site
I've found buying brand new to be as much as a virtual lottery as 2nd hand purchases made on Ebay or Discogs. I've had a few brand new records from Amazon that are not only noisy but also as warped as f*ck. Total pain in the backside getting them changed and sometimes if they've played OK I've tolerated a slight warp.
 

stereoman

Well-known member
Mar 22, 2016
146
14
10,595
Visit site
To be honest, all these answers point to the fact that not all what is vinyl is fun. Although it has many advantages, many suggest that it's a rather hit & miss hobby. I'm a bit surprised as I'm planning to go for a TT and start to buy records especially for their nice big sleeves, lack of rewinding and sound. But the sound from what I see here seems to be a kind of lottery... (?) Although I remember playing once records and did not have or encounter such noise problems, yet many users on Discogs for example point to that. Need to check this out myself too... ;)
 
D

Deleted member 108165

Guest
stereoman said:
To be honest, all these answers point to the fact that not all what is vinyl is fun. Although it has many advantages, many suggest that it's a rather hit & miss hobby. I'm a bit surprised as I'm planning to go for a TT and start to buy records especially for their nice big sleeves, lack of rewinding and sound. But the sound from what I see here seems to be a kind of lottery... (?) Although I remember playing once records and did not have or encounter such noise problems, yet many users on Discogs for example point to that. Need to check this out myself too... ;)

Quality of vinyl replay is indeed a lottery, so if you cherish CD-like silence with your playback medium then don't take the plunge on a turntable...

My current regime is every album I purchase, new or used, gets a wet clean and a new poly-lined inner before it gets anywhere near my turntable.

Just a question to other members: Turntable engineering hasn't really evolved much over the last few decades but has stylus and tonearm engineering moved on to a point where it has become too precise for the medium, ie, too revealing? Or is it just that we have become so used to the black silence of CD's that we have forgotten the foibles of vinyl playback and are being very picky?
 
luckylion100 said:
I've found buying brand new to be as much as a virtual lottery as 2nd hand purchases made on Ebay or Discogs. I've had a few brand new records from Amazon that are not only noisy but also as warped as f*ck. Total pain in the backside getting them changed and sometimes if they've played OK I've tolerated a slight warp.

And the moral of this story is ......... ?

But from someone that knows how to store / handle vinyl. It does not normally come from the manufacturer warped this has to be induced.
 
DougK said:
stereoman said:
To be honest, all these answers point to the fact that not all what is vinyl is fun. Although it has many advantages, many suggest that it's a rather hit & miss hobby. I'm a bit surprised as I'm planning to go for a TT and start to buy records especially for their nice big sleeves, lack of rewinding and sound. But the sound from what I see here seems to be a kind of lottery... (?) Although I remember playing once records and did not have or encounter such noise problems, yet many users on Discogs for example point to that. Need to check this out myself too... ;)

Quality of vinyl replay is indeed a lottery, so if you cherish CD-like silence with your playback medium then don't take the plunge on a turntable...

My current regime is every album I purchase, new or used, gets a wet clean and a new poly-lined inner before it gets anywhere near my turntable.

Just a question to other members: Turntable engineering hasn't really evolved much over the last few decades but has stylus and tonearm engineering moved on to a point where it has become too precise for the medium, ie, too revealing? Or is it just that we have become so used to the black silence of CD's that we have forgotten the foibles of vinyl playback and are being very picky?

Really? Tell that the the designers at TechDas. :)

I can see where you might be coming from however. As to the idea that cartridge and tonearm development has become too good is also wrong. Some cartridges and tonearms reached a pinnacle decades ago but are still being produced now. (Think some of the SMEs, Graham Phantom, Wheaton Triplanar, et al). Some have slight tweaks made to them now and again but they are essentially the same thing (manufacturers like to make minor tweaks as it tends to promote new 'growth' perpetuated by those that think newer is obviously better and they simply must have to have the very latest.)

Well I know which I'd choose when it comes to a new or old Koetsu. ;-)

You might have hit the nail on the head when you referenced CD s. Before these vinyl players had little to compare the sound to except the reel to reel tape and later the cassette. There is no doubt that the quality and possible frequency response obtainable on CD surpasses what is achievable with even the best analogue set-up but that's not the be all and end all of those that love vinyl replay.

I am pretty certain that those that complain most about noisy vinyl are:-

1/ New players who have recently bought into the vinyl scene and are just not used to the background and occasional pops and clicks having been brought up on the nice clean sound of CDs.

2/ Insist on playing vinyl on cheap modern decks with the pretty rubbish cartridges seemingly fitted as standard on today's 'convenience packs' which are prone to picking up every click and pop and don't track particularly well.

3/ Just bloody unlucky.

;-)
 

stereoman

Well-known member
Mar 22, 2016
146
14
10,595
Visit site
DougK said:
stereoman said:
To be honest, all these answers point to the fact that not all what is vinyl is fun. Although it has many advantages, many suggest that it's a rather hit & miss hobby. I'm a bit surprised as I'm planning to go for a TT and start to buy records especially for their nice big sleeves, lack of rewinding and sound. But the sound from what I see here seems to be a kind of lottery... (?) Although I remember playing once records and did not have or encounter such noise problems, yet many users on Discogs for example point to that. Need to check this out myself too... ;)

Quality of vinyl replay is indeed a lottery, so if you cherish CD-like silence with your playback medium then don't take the plunge on a turntable...

My current regime is every album I purchase, new or used, gets a wet clean and a new poly-lined inner before it gets anywhere near my turntable.

Just a question to other members: Turntable engineering hasn't really evolved much over the last few decades but has stylus and tonearm engineering moved on to a point where it has become too precise for the medium, ie, too revealing? Or is it just that we have become so used to the black silence of CD's that we have forgotten the foibles of vinyl playback and are being very picky?

No, it's not that I totally dismiss hiss in recording. For years I enjoyed cassettes in my teenage years and that did not deter me so much from listening although I always wished the noise to be reduced. With vinyl it's obvious there will be some hiss and crackle and that is the beauty of it. But if noise level is really too much than it's less fun. What is really bad are some recordings that sound too quiet.
 

MajorFubar

New member
Mar 3, 2010
690
6
0
Visit site
DougK said:
but has stylus and tonearm engineering moved on to a point where it has become too precise for the medium, ie, too revealing?

No, not seeing I'm using a turntable that's over 40 years old and I can tell the difference.

DougK said:
Or is it just that we have become so used to the black silence of CD's that we have forgotten the foibles of vinyl playback and are being very picky?

Yep. That and the fact many premium new records are noisier than they were in the medium's heyday. But also in its heyday, there were a lot more cheap crap pressings on labels like Ronco, K-Tel, MFP, Stereo Gold Award, Chevron etc. People soon forget that the average quality of records even back in their heyday was not particularly great unless you were buying premium titles.
 
MajorFubar said:
DougK said:
but has stylus and tonearm engineering moved on to a point where it has become too precise for the medium, ie, too revealing?

No, not seeing I'm using a turntable that's over 40 years old and I can tell the difference.

DougK said:
Or is it just that we have become so used to the black silence of CD's that we have forgotten the foibles of vinyl playback and are being very picky?

Yep. That and the fact many premium new records are noisier than they were in the medium's heyday. But also in its heyday, there were a lot more cheap crap pressings on labels like Ronco, K-Tel, MFP, Stereo Gold Award, Chevron etc. People soon forget that the average quality of records even back in their heyday was not particularly great unless you were buying premium titles.

I quite agree with the Major on that last bit some very poor pressings on el cheapo labels were available in the past and some very thin vinyl LPs appeared due to various oil embargos at the time, these were very prone to warping.

Perhaps also the sudden resurgence of vinyl has meant there are quite a few new pressing plants springing into life that might not quite be following the QC regimes that used to exist in the past with well established vinyl pressing establishments. Certain manufacturers of today have been promoted as being very good but, having said that, it is very difficult to tell just where your lump of vinyl was pressed.
 

stereoman

Well-known member
Mar 22, 2016
146
14
10,595
Visit site
Al ears said:
MajorFubar said:
DougK said:
but has stylus and tonearm engineering moved on to a point where it has become too precise for the medium, ie, too revealing?

No, not seeing I'm using a turntable that's over 40 years old and I can tell the difference.

DougK said:
Or is it just that we have become so used to the black silence of CD's that we have forgotten the foibles of vinyl playback and are being very picky?

Yep. That and the fact many premium new records are noisier than they were in the medium's heyday. But also in its heyday, there were a lot more cheap crap pressings on labels like Ronco, K-Tel, MFP, Stereo Gold Award, Chevron etc. People soon forget that the average quality of records even back in their heyday was not particularly great unless you were buying premium titles.

I quite agree with the Major on that last bit some very poor pressings on el cheapo labels were available in the past and some very thin vinyl LPs appeared due to various oil embargos at the time, these were very prone to warping.

Perhaps also the sudden resurgence of vinyl has meant there are quite a few new pressing plants springing into life that might not quite be following the QC regimes that used to exist in the past with well established vinyl pressing establishments. Certain manufacturers of today have been promoted as being very good but, having said that, it is very difficult to tell just where your lump of vinyl was pressed.

Exactly , as more and more LPs get sold , there should be some red book standards for quality check / pressing vinyls. Just like with the CDs.
 
stereoman said:
Al ears said:
MajorFubar said:
DougK said:
but has stylus and tonearm engineering moved on to a point where it has become too precise for the medium, ie, too revealing?

No, not seeing I'm using a turntable that's over 40 years old and I can tell the difference.

DougK said:
Or is it just that we have become so used to the black silence of CD's that we have forgotten the foibles of vinyl playback and are being very picky?

Yep. That and the fact many premium new records are noisier than they were in the medium's heyday. But also in its heyday, there were a lot more cheap crap pressings on labels like Ronco, K-Tel, MFP, Stereo Gold Award, Chevron etc. People soon forget that the average quality of records even back in their heyday was not particularly great unless you were buying premium titles.

I quite agree with the Major on that last bit some very poor pressings on el cheapo labels were available in the past and some very thin vinyl LPs appeared due to various oil embargos at the time, these were very prone to warping.

Perhaps also the sudden resurgence of vinyl has meant there are quite a few new pressing plants springing into life that might not quite be following the QC regimes that used to exist in the past with well established vinyl pressing establishments. Certain manufacturers of today have been promoted as being very good but, having said that, it is very difficult to tell just where your lump of vinyl was pressed.

Exactly , as more and more LPs get sold , there should be some red book standards for quality check / pressing vinyls. Just like with the CDs.

As far as | was aware Red Book has nothing to do with quality control. This is purely to do with the way data is set out on a CD so it can be read by all machines.
 
D

Deleted member 108165

Guest
Okay, so my theories on turntable, tonearm and cartridge evolution have been expertly put to bed by Al and The Major *biggrin* , cheers guys *good*

Another question: MM and MC, is there a difference regarding the audio reproduction produced by these two approaches, ie, are the sufferers of high surface noise running MM carts in their systems? Does MC have a lower surface noise compared to MM? Also could stylus shape have a bearing on surface noise by either introducing or masking noise successfully?
 

stereoman

Well-known member
Mar 22, 2016
146
14
10,595
Visit site
Al ears said:
stereoman said:
Al ears said:
MajorFubar said:
DougK said:
but has stylus and tonearm engineering moved on to a point where it has become too precise for the medium, ie, too revealing?

No, not seeing I'm using a turntable that's over 40 years old and I can tell the difference.

DougK said:
Or is it just that we have become so used to the black silence of CD's that we have forgotten the foibles of vinyl playback and are being very picky?

Yep. That and the fact many premium new records are noisier than they were in the medium's heyday. But also in its heyday, there were a lot more cheap crap pressings on labels like Ronco, K-Tel, MFP, Stereo Gold Award, Chevron etc. People soon forget that the average quality of records even back in their heyday was not particularly great unless you were buying premium titles.

I quite agree with the Major on that last bit some very poor pressings on el cheapo labels were available in the past and some very thin vinyl LPs appeared due to various oil embargos at the time, these were very prone to warping.

Perhaps also the sudden resurgence of vinyl has meant there are quite a few new pressing plants springing into life that might not quite be following the QC regimes that used to exist in the past with well established vinyl pressing establishments. Certain manufacturers of today have been promoted as being very good but, having said that, it is very difficult to tell just where your lump of vinyl was pressed.

Exactly , as more and more LPs get sold , there should be some red book standards for quality check / pressing vinyls. Just like with the CDs.

As far as | was aware Red Book has nothing to do with quality control. This is purely to do with the way data is set out on a CD so it can be read by all machines.

Exactly, the data, format, reflecting material used, size etc. When a LP is warped, it gets skipped. So it has to comply to something.

http://blog.fixyourmix.com/2009/what-is-a-red-book-cd-producer-speak
 

thescarletpronster

New member
Nov 17, 2012
10
0
0
Visit site
DougK said:
has stylus and tonearm engineering moved on to a point where it has become too precise for the medium, ie, too revealing?

If this were the case, old records would sound as bad as new ones. But old pressings I have can sound absolutely noiseless,* as can the best of the new ones. It's just that more new pressings than old, in my experience, do have unacceptable levels of noise. Sure, my expectations have changed as I (a) got used to listening to CDs and (b) bought a much better hi-fi a few years ago, but if it was only that my expecations had changed, I'd now be as unhappy about old pressings as I am about new ones. But the majority of my old records from 25+ years ago – even ones I've played dozens or even hundreds of times – sound fantastic.

I think the main problem is that most of the expertise in mastering, cutting and pressing records, as well as the equipment, was lost in the years when vinyl more or less disappeared from the market. Records are, according to an article I read last year, now being pressed in many cases on machines which are well past their useful life-span and are being kept working with all sort of desperate repairs, and in some cases by people without that much expertise. Quality control also seems a problem - I get a lot of records which have been scratched inside the sleeves as grit has found its way in. Not a problem I remember in the 'old days'.

*I know there's no such things as absolutely noiseless, particularly in the analogue world - I just mean to the human ear there is no discernible noise.
 

luckylion100

New member
Nov 6, 2011
72
0
0
Visit site
Al ears said:
luckylion100 said:
I've found buying brand new to be as much as a virtual lottery as 2nd hand purchases made on Ebay or Discogs. I've had a few brand new records from Amazon that are not only noisy but also as warped as f*ck. Total pain in the backside getting them changed and sometimes if they've played OK I've tolerated a slight warp.

And the moral of this story is ......... ?

But from someone that knows how to store / handle vinyl. It does not normally come from the manufacturer warped this has to be induced.

Amazon only serves to accomodate my implusive and spontaneous vinyl cravings... the promise of next day delivery after unwittingly signing up to Prime makes purchases I'd normally think twice about and ultimately ignore all the more attractive.
 

MajorFubar

New member
Mar 3, 2010
690
6
0
Visit site
DougK said:
Another question: MM and MC, is there a difference regarding the audio reproduction produced by these two approaches, ie, are the sufferers of high surface noise running MM carts in their systems? Does MC have a lower surface noise compared to MM? Also could stylus shape have a bearing on surface noise by either introducing or masking noise successfully?

Definitely stylus shape, and definitely some carts give a higher surface noise than others. There isn't as far as I can see a link to whether a cart is MM or MC, other than most of the best carts in the world seem to be MC so they will usually be fitted with the most advanced styli. However there are additional factors. Because a low output MC cart needs 10x the amplication (or more) of a MM, there is also a greater chance it could highlight deficiencies elsewhere in the system, such as mains hum and a higher noise floor in the phono stage.
 

TRENDING THREADS

Latest posts